Ships passing in the night. . . .

Jim

In every debate I try to understand what is really true,not what I want to be true. I am more interested in the truth in the matter, not in just winning my argument.

In one of James's earlier posts he mentioned Christians finding oaths of any kind presumptuous. This jogged my memory,so to the Bible I went.

Here are two quotes,the first Jesus himself in Matthew 5, 33-37, New American Standard :

"Again,you have heard that the ancients were told,YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.

"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by Heaven, for it is the throne of God,
or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING."

"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black."

"But let your statement be, Yes, yes, or No, no; anything beyond these is of evil."

Next a quote from the letter of James(not you frostbite!LOL!)chapter 5,verse 12:
"But above all, my brethern, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes,and your no,no,so that you may not fall under judgment."

I think you and I James do not agree on many things philosophical (I am a "devout" Christian) but on this point I concede to you. Thank you. I will now bow out of this debate and observe others opinions and observations on this topic.

Sandman, all I know is that I've encountered witnesses who 1) claim to be Christian, and 2) refuse to swear any oath. Thanks for the background sources for this belief.

Jim

Some churches believe in saying I affirm instead of I swear to an oath.

Separation of church and state.

Hasn't worked well morally as proven by the chaos of today's society. If God is God & I think He is then I think I will offer Him my Truthful testimony and that is much more likely to fall on Righteous ears then those of Modern Day Judges.

You people are starting to scare me a little and I am not an atheist.

If God is God, He will judge as He wishes, regardless of what oath is taken in our earthly courts.

One more time: the purpose of the courtroom oath is to impress on the witness the importance of telling the truth.

The witness oath was never intended to be an advertisement for religion.

Jim

Historically The Oath was not designed to be of purely secular value James. Indeed it was an advisement to the Judge that a Christian/Jew must face the truth and tell the truth or answer to God for putting forth a lie in His name,under North America's original judicial system. That Oath was a demand upon God Fearing people that they tell the Truth or they would have a lie added to their morality that was weighted by lying in Gods name. Nothing to trifle with if the person with his hand on the Bible was to meet judgment day with that lie in his case load.

Sounds as if an oath to God means a lot to you, Mira. But you mentally pray to God sometimes, don't you? You can add the words "to God" after the word "swear" in your own mind, if that helps.

You have to look at the practicalities. Suppose you have a witness who doesn't believe in the Christian God. You'll concede there are such people, won't you?

You aren't proposing to pass a law requiring them to convert to Christianity, are you?

If you're not proposing such a law, then are you advocating that they take an oath they don't believe in?

The real-life problem in our earthly courts is to craft an oath that impresses on witnesses the importance of truthfulness, and triggers the penalties of perjury if they're untruthful. How would you craft such an oath for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic societies like ours?

Jim

James, were North American courts required to provide a Bible & swear an oath to tell the truth or not? The practicality of that issue is 86% of the population still believes God belongs as a witness to the Truth in North American courts.

Point of courtesy: if you answer my questions first, then I'll be glad to answer yours in turn. :-)

Jim

Reread the thread James. I have expressed my view throughout the thread as to why I feel the need to have God as a Witness to our Court system. I even supplied a factor showing where I don't treat folks who treat Good Luck charms as anything that would cause me consternation when I played sports with such superstitious team mates. I wasn't insulted by their lucky charms so why should the Courts be insulted by having Christians and Jews call upon God for the truth in a court of Law?

Ah, if you're just talking about allowing Christians, Jews, or anyone else to "swear to God," if that works for them, I agree with you.

I was just wondering how we'd deal with the other 14 percent. Btw, I believe you're using out-dated figures on that 86 percent Christian.

According to the surveys conducted by the American Relious Identification surveys, 86 percent was the figure for Americans who identified themselves as Christian in 1990. But their 2009 survey just found that the current figure is 76 percent.

Jim

On this Continent that is the Historical benchmark set up on both sides of the Canadian border. Even the Founding Fathers who leaned towards Atheism recognized that God in the courts would bring about more truthful answers James.




Actually the number is a direct reflection upon a recent CBC poll which established that benchmark and is noted on page one of this thread in the opening remarks James.

I know that you have found that your previous questions of me were answered in this thread James as a point of courtesy. So you should be able to reflect upon my questions of you now.


James, were North American courts required to provide a Bible & swear an oath to tell the truth or not? The practicality of that issue is 86% of the population still believes God belongs as a witness to the Truth in North American courts.

1. Most N. American courts did traditionally use a Bible, yes. I don't know if it was done as a requirement or by custom. The latter, I suspect. And I'm not sure how long that was court custom, but probably longer than America was settled.

2. Sorry, as I said, the figure is 76 percent. But regardless, court procedures are not subject to popular vote or whims.

What would you do if you were the judge, and a witness refused to swear to God?

Jim

Todd, and exactly what did the framers mean by that?

Did they mean that the state had no business telling people what type of Christianty they could follow or better yet had to follow, ie the Church of England?

Did they mean that God must be eliminated from any form of government? And if so then why did they write the laws around the Ten Commandments?

There is believed to be a couple letters written by George Washington that firmly state that the government should be ran under Christian rules and morals

I'll say it again and again, what is so bad at following the life of Jesus? I know its impossible, but it does bring a source of self responsibilty to people.

It is no coincedence that with the removal of corporal punishment and God from our schools that there has been a steady increase of younger crime. NO one has any consiquences anymore.

Take it under consideration James. I am a fair man and if I found that the Hindu was telling the truth he would be given the nod over the Christian that swore an oath that I felt to be contrary to the testimony he was giving. I wouldn't judge the man unfairly if I knew he was Atheist but if he seemed to be a Christian who refused to ask God to be his witness then I would be very watchful of his application of truthful testimony or if a Christian that was lying after swearing the Oath , he would be answering to God through my judgment because I as a JUDGE would be praying for God to give me the proper sentencing against the Christian who had just compounded his sins by lying in the face of God. I would be calling for the same Prayer as Solomon in asking God to give him the wisdom of proper sentencing in all cases despite the fact that the judgment might go against a fellow Christian and favor a man that hates God.



You accused me of missing the point in the start of this thread James. To myself/Christians & Jews we are always aware of God and His position on Righteous behavior. When God is taken into the Court Room by me in that Oath I wouldn't lie supposing the Judge was a Nazi and I was a Jew destined to die if I admitted I loved God more then my life. God will look after me and He will look after those who judge me on Earth.



Where you seem to be missing the point is the importance of God to those who believe in Him. He is our Rock ,our Judge and our Creator. All that I have is His & I have no problem asking Him to witness my sense of truth before a judge who supports me in my values or one dead set against me because TRUTH before God is more important to me. I put great Faith in the view that my truth offered in God's name will make Him activate Truthful response from the entire court, for the jury to recognize. For you as an atheist, I think it is very unjust to expect your testimony to be devalued by an Oath to God or to mickey mouse. As I noted in my point about Lucky Charms,I have no faith in them at all but I do not deny my team mates the joy they get in asking me to touch those charms if they ask me. That analogy is no different to myself or the lucky charm player once the game starts but I feel my Prayers for the Athlete and may the best team win without serious injury to either team, carry more weight.