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Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? #173988
04/10/07 11:57 PM
04/10/07 11:57 PM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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I've never made a gland or urine lure before...but I think it is time I experimented.

I caught some brushtailed possums today, and I cut the glands from the base of the tails of some of them.

I've heard that to make a good tincture lure, I should cover the glands with vodka. I don't drink, and I don't want to buy a whole bottle just to make a wee bit of lure (yeah, yeah, I know I can post the rest of the bottle to you ;)). I have also read that you can use denatured alcohol. The denatured alcohol that I have has had some purple dye added along with a bitter additive to make it less likely that folks will drink it (we call it methylated spirit).

Will this type of denatured alcohol be worth trying?

What should I be using? Is there an even better recipe that doesn't require alcohol at all?

Thanks in advance... Coote.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #173992
04/11/07 12:01 AM
04/11/07 12:01 AM
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East, Kentucky
KYBOY Offline
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100 proof vodka works well. It really dosnt take that much. Here you can buy a 1/2 pint of cheap rotgut vodka for around 3$US. Not sure what you have to pay for it.


Deep in the heart of Appalachia....
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: KYBOY] #173996
04/11/07 12:06 AM
04/11/07 12:06 AM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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Good thought thanks. I actually dunno what is available here in the way of cheap vodka. I should go and check it out. Maybe I've just imagined I'd have to pay around thirty bucks a bottle.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #173997
04/11/07 12:08 AM
04/11/07 12:08 AM
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East, Kentucky
KYBOY Offline
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I dont drink Vodka either. Its 100 proof, thats all that matters. Couldent hurt to check it out. Maybe Asa or Paul will see this soon and chime in. Theyve been at it a long time.


Deep in the heart of Appalachia....
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: KYBOY] #174039
04/11/07 01:03 AM
04/11/07 01:03 AM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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I called the local liquor store. Seems that 100 proof is an American classification... and if I listened properly to the store clerk, 100 proof is equivalent to 50% alcohol by volume. They didn't stock it that strong... about 43% by volume (86 proof?) is all they have. And that was around NZ$42 for a 750 millilitre bottle.

I will phone around some more to see what else is available. It could be that we don't have 100 proof around here. I guess 86 proof would be worth a try.

I understand that vodka is relatively tasteless compared to other spirits. I wonder if some strong other variety of spirit would do the trick. I will have to bludge a small quantity from some of my buddies that drink.

Thanks for your help... Coote.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #174041
04/11/07 01:06 AM
04/11/07 01:06 AM
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Well, I've never done it for lures, but I know some people who tinture herbs, and 100 proof is all that works.
P.S.-Vodka is about the burn, not the taste.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: cwilld] #174063
04/11/07 02:21 AM
04/11/07 02:21 AM
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kansas
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ever heard of ever clear? nasty stuff but it will do what you want to do.and its about as high as you can go i think. i do know you can run a car off of it


i live and work in this city but am truly alive on this river......tom burns
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: mr. finch] #174098
04/11/07 04:51 AM
04/11/07 04:51 AM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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Thanks folks. I'll investigate.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #174132
04/11/07 07:51 AM
04/11/07 07:51 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Everclear isn't legal to buy in my State so I use 100 proof vodka with good results.
(I have been told Everclear is used as break fluid on the railroad so if one knows a railroad worker they might get some.)

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #174137
04/11/07 07:57 AM
04/11/07 07:57 AM
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Sorry if I'm hijacking here, but can you tincture skunk glands with vodka? Syringes aren't the easiest to get ahold of here.


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: ] #174230
04/11/07 09:09 AM
04/11/07 09:09 AM
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Hey Lynx if you post a step-by-step demo I'll give it a try.


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: ] #174252
04/11/07 09:25 AM
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Sounds like a plan.


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: bigpat] #174254
04/11/07 09:31 AM
04/11/07 09:31 AM
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Okla
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 Originally Posted By: bigpat
Hey Lynx if you post a step-by-step demo I'll give it a try.



I've heard of people that live in the northeast (only the northeast) that used the lemon method.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: OldHasBeen] #174443
04/11/07 12:38 PM
04/11/07 12:38 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Big Pat asked...
Sorry if I'm hijacking here, but can you tincture skunk glands with vodka?

One can tincture any animal or plant product with 100 proof vodka. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #174527
04/11/07 01:55 PM
04/11/07 01:55 PM
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Thanks Ace!


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: bigpat] #174544
04/11/07 02:06 PM
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How bout a definition of tincture. Is it similar to pickling? Preservation like with framaldihyde or something totaly diffirent and unrelated? Everclear is just packaged and legaly produced shine, good ole corn liqure. You can order 100 percent rubbing alcohol from a pharmacy, it contains no water, we use it at work when splicing fiber optic cable. Thanks, Rob


Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: bigpat] #174569
04/11/07 02:26 PM
04/11/07 02:26 PM
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I dont think many using the term tincture know really what this process is and its intended use. Very few lure makers actually tincture in the sense that is being implied in this thread for gland lure etc. Alcohol is a powerful astringent that is used in this fashion to extract and draw out available extractable materials.

Tincturing is a procedure used to extract an specific active material from a plant or animal matter.It is not a means to an end formula quick mix. Alcohol is a preservative and a strong one at that. The higher the percentage of alcohol the greater preservation qualities that material possesses.

Glands do not need to be tinctured to be developed into a lure. Tinctured products will not break down, nor age beyond the point of initial mixing and will be preserved at that state. Aging your ground glands with some urine will yield a nice gland lure if allowed adequate time to age.Then you can work up something with your aged material. Which may take a year or longer to reach a desired degree of age.

I dont recommend adding an alcohol based product to any gland lure except possibly for castor based products for beaver etc. I would not recommend using specific alcohol derivitives for a canine or cat gland lure in the sense in which it is being implied.

Tincturing is a specific process used in limited fashion for acquiring a specific active ingredient needed and taken from a bulk or another raw form of material. This purpose is to extract a more concentrated material for another more specific use typically.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #174573
04/11/07 02:32 PM
04/11/07 02:32 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Rob:
Tincturing is just a solvent to get the most oder potential released from glands and plant materials like asafoedita powder, musk ambrette crystals, catnip, spearmint, etc. 100 proof vodka is a natural product made from potatoes and has no negative odor effects on the canines. Rubbing alcolhol is something different and might have negative effects when in lures, especially fox and coyote lures so I would be skeptical of using that. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bob Jameson] #174575
04/11/07 02:33 PM
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Wow, thanks Bob....

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #174577
04/11/07 02:35 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Bob J:
The only glands I tincture in vodka are the small weasel musk pods to get the most out of a product in scarce supply. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #174656
04/11/07 03:38 PM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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Excellent ideas thanks. I now know more about the process.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #174679
04/11/07 04:01 PM
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Will the tincturing work on muskrat glands as well as the weasel glands?


I'm just happy to be here! Today I'm as young as I'll ever be and and older than I've ever been before!
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: MnMan] #174730
04/11/07 04:53 PM
04/11/07 04:53 PM
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South Central Kansas
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I've never tincured glands before but I've tincured propolis - honeybee propolis that is. For that I used everclear. Everclear is I think 190 proof - which is 95% alcohol. If alcohol is what your after I would think that everclear would be a better choice than vodka.

Would isopropal alcohol work as well or does it have to be methyl alcohol?


Billy Y
On the fringe of the Kansas Flint Hills
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Billy Y] #174759
04/11/07 05:12 PM
04/11/07 05:12 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Everclear is not available here in Michigan and probably some other states. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Billy Y] #174768
04/11/07 05:16 PM
04/11/07 05:16 PM
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Georgia
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45/70 Offline
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First of all, Everclear, PGA, and similar products are not available in all states, even the wet ones. Asa told me once that hundred proof is the highest proof alcohol he can buy in his state. That may be a limiting factor to some.

I have talked with lure makers, and have been told by some good ones, that the high proof alcohols have an odor they do not like. I don't know, simply repeating what I have been told.

So, I am perfectly happy to go with Asa's recommendation of 100 proof alcohol, vodka. I use Smiranoff (sp?) Black Label.

Adios,
45/70,

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: 45/70] #174797
04/11/07 05:34 PM
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Sooo is it a mistake to use 80proof Vodka vs 100 proof??

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bristleback] #174830
04/11/07 06:01 PM
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I agree Asa that tinctureing is a practical and effective means of extracting and extending a desired material in short supply such as weasel musk and other musks and plant related matter. We as formulators do this out of necessity and a vital part of our having adequate material to satisfy a need.

I must say I had some very negative results in my early years in formulation regarding the use of alcohol of any kind in anything more than trace amounts that are in a formula if it is found to be a necessary ingredient to complete a formula.

I have found in my experience that regardless of the type of alcohol and proof percentage the alcohol odor is detectable and can be an issue depending on the amount used and the type of alcohol.

If a formulation mix containment is left open and aired for a period of time and stirred frequently a large percentage of that familiar odor can be lost if it is a high percentage proof and a good quality product.

So from this early on experience I learned to keep some tinctured materials to a tolerable minimum or I would go with the original form of the product with no tinctured material.

I will share this information as such and leave it at that.Experience is a good teacher and some will find out for themselves as to the effects in time that alcohol can have in some formulas with specific wildlife reactions and responses.

Alcohol can negatively affect the natural aging and odor blending process of other ingredients at times if its limited use is not understood.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bob Jameson] #174862
04/11/07 06:22 PM
04/11/07 06:22 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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I have purchased samples of a variety of ingredients from several companies that were tinctured in pure alcolhol and I didn't like the strong odor. The odor of the alcolhol was actually overpowering the ingredient odor. When I sampled it in lures I could still smell that strong odor of the tincturing fluid. The odor of vodka seems to immediately dissapear in lure formulation and I have tested it repeatedly on coyotes and fox with no adverse reactions. So, even if everclear was available here I would still use 100 proof vodka. It may take a little longer to tincture using only 50% alcolhol but it does do a good job. Just my opinion.
Bristleback: 80 proof vodka would work too, just take a little longer and perhaps not do as thorough of a job. Ace

Last edited by Asa Lenon; 04/11/07 06:23 PM.
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #174961
04/11/07 07:44 PM
04/11/07 07:44 PM
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Central Ohio
LT GREY Offline
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Hard to top Ase and Bobby J. Real good info there guys...worth reading over! I have used 100 proof vodka at times. It certainly isn't for everything but neither is glycol. I once bought some glands and beaver castor from the late Mel Hershberger...all put up in 100 proof vodka.(said so on the label) It was and is pretty good stuff! Same way with some weasel glands I got from the late Dave Edwards. Mind you, these guys weren't rookies when it came to things of this nature by any means. Amazing what one can do if they have the knowledge. Both Asa and Bob Jameson are certainly two individuals who do. I seldom use vodka anymore unless it's mixed with something. \:\)

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: LT GREY] #174987
04/11/07 08:07 PM
04/11/07 08:07 PM
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IN Midwest USA
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I use rubbing alcohol to get the essential oils out of stuff. I don't drink either.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: FurSkinsFox] #175039
04/11/07 08:50 PM
04/11/07 08:50 PM
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Whether or not you drink has no relation to the alcohol used for tincturing. Duh!

Rubbing alcohol is a product that is usually sold at about 100 proof.

However, it is toxic when ingested, and at least to me it has a strong, objectionable odor when compared to grain alcohol.

Waugh!
45/70,

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: 45/70] #175245
04/11/07 10:40 PM
04/11/07 10:40 PM
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Piney va. soon be 19
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don't try shine i did and my catnip smelled just like a minty jug of good sipping licker


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: cotton] #175327
04/11/07 11:39 PM
04/11/07 11:39 PM
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South Central Kansas
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Not to beat a dead horse but according to this site everclear is tasteless and oderless:

http://www.beerliquors.com/liquors/grain.htm

Seems that if you can buy it legal in your state it would be a better tincure choice than vodka.


Billy Y
On the fringe of the Kansas Flint Hills
Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Billy Y] #175381
04/12/07 12:35 AM
04/12/07 12:35 AM
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St Louis, Missouri
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 Quote:
Not to beat a dead horse but according to this site everclear is tasteless and oderless:



Everclear is not illegal in my state, or at least it was not illegal back in the day...

BUT... only a dead horse would say it is either tasteless or odorless... LMAO.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Barkstone] #175514
04/12/07 08:21 AM
04/12/07 08:21 AM
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WI
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^

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: whitetailaddict] #175588
04/12/07 09:25 AM
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OK so I have mint in my summer garden, and Im going to plant some catnip. If I am reading this like I think I am what should take place for using these plants as a lure ingredient is: pick some of the fresh plant, smoosh it up good, put it into a sterilized glass jar, fill in the gaps with 100 proof vodka and wait. Now after 6 months, a year I would then pour off the liquid which would have now drawn the essential oils from the plants and whala I now am the proud owner of tinctured mint and catnip. Does this sound right? Would the process go the same with wild grapes, castors, and glands.

Ive read in product catalogs that glycol can be used as a tincturing agent, is this true? Is it inferior, superior, equivilant to vodka? Does it have the same preservative qualaties?

A main theme to this thread seems to be use alcohol for tincturing in moderation only when a must, so plants and musk would be on this list what about horse hoof trimmings, horse chestnuts, castors, beaver oil, cat bladders, so on ....?

A lot of questions I know, but I really am begining to enjoy this type of lure/bait discussion. Thanks guys, Rob


Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #175616
04/12/07 09:40 AM
04/12/07 09:40 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Rob: I would dry the catnip and mint leaves first and pulverize them into a powder before tincturing. One more thing, place your tincturing jugs/bottles some place where you walk by them frequently and give them a good shaking every now and then. I like to use the vodka bottles themselves for a good shaking bottle. The process would be the same for castors and other substances and I grind and dry the castors first too.
Propylene glycol works too and is basically odorless to the human nose. However, I never thought it did as good of a job or as quickly and thoroughly as alcohol. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #175626
04/12/07 09:51 AM
04/12/07 09:51 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Kansasbert
Ive read in product catalogs that glycol can be used as a tincturing agent, is this true? Is it inferior, superior, equivilant to vodka? Does it have the same preservative qualaties?

A lot of questions I know, but I really am begining to enjoy this type of lure/bait discussion. Thanks guys, Rob


Just what I have observed from reading and listening on here. Glycol or Glycerine do not really have preservative qualities, what is there is very minimal. It takes too large a quantity too do an effective job. I use salt and sodium benzoate, but also understand that Methyl Paraben is a fine, although more expensive preservative. It is supposed to be tasteless and odorless. But maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in and help out. WTA

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: whitetailaddict] #175629
04/12/07 09:52 AM
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And by the way, I also, really think the lure/bait discussion, is the most interesting topics on here, and really enjoy. Thanks to Asa, Paul, Bob, Dave, and all else who help out. WTA

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #175648
04/12/07 09:59 AM
04/12/07 09:59 AM
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LT GREY Offline
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Yes , but you won't have genuine catnip oil. That only comes from 1 of 2 ways. One is steam distilled and the other, although more primitive, is through massilation ( I probably spelled it wrong)and by using ultra violent rays to extract it. By the way artificial catnip will NOT to the same thing in a lure formula as the genuine stuff! I pick truck loads of catnip every year,as well as grow it. It grows wild here in Ohio.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: LT GREY] #175658
04/12/07 10:05 AM
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Kansasbert Offline
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Ok agreed I would not have geniune catnip oil, but would tincture of catnip sufice as a substitute for catnip oil, would it be better than artificial catnip oil?


Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #175689
04/12/07 10:29 AM
04/12/07 10:29 AM
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Bob Jameson Offline
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Genuine catnip material is most naturally derived by distillation. Tincturing catnip can be a good alternative to distillation if one doesnt have access to a still as such.

Strength of a distilled process product is increased by the number of times each batch is run through the system. To the point until the maximum strength of that product has been achieved.

It is more practical and easier at times to tincture these types of mints and other types of material such as ambrette musk,asefoetida etc.

The end odor of a distilled natural product or tinctures vs a synthethic product are worlds apart in true odor representation.

Most I would assume it is safe to say that most use the artificial/synthetic form due to its more accessable nature.It can be over powering in the synthetic form.

Only a select few such as Asa, the late Dave Edwards and myself and possibly Paul may use the orginal material in formulations as needed or desired.There may well be other formulators also but this is an area that is not discussed in a great detail between others.Each individual has his own little secrets or methods that are sacred to each.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bob Jameson] #175734
04/12/07 10:57 AM
04/12/07 10:57 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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As Bob says, a tincture will never have the strength and quality of a distilled product such as catnip oil. However, for homebrew lures tincturing can do a fair job if one lets it age in the tincturing agent and give the jug a good shaking on a regular basis. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #176992
04/13/07 01:14 AM
04/13/07 01:14 AM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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I really appreciate all the helpful comments and ideas. Thanks everybody.

Once you have a concentrated tincture, can you dilute it with anything to make it go further?

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #177143
04/13/07 08:12 AM
04/13/07 08:12 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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I doubt that one will end up with an ingredient that is too concentrated from tincturing coote. Ace

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Asa Lenon] #177168
04/13/07 08:35 AM
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Bob Jameson Offline
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You will find that it is better to decrease the amount of an element used then to cut its strength.You should strive to keep your ingredient materials consistent in all ways to ensure the integrity of your formula. If not, it may change your formula in odor or lack there of and possibly adversely affect the quality or desired effectiveness.

There is much dilution going on out there with items being sold that may lack consistency, quality or just wont be want you wanted at all. So the avg. individual hopeing to do his own lures or baits is buying something that he may not realize that it just isnt what he thought it would be or he just doesn't know what the good stuff is.

Most will find this out when they purchase the real deal from another supplier. Or have the opportunity to smell the authentic, uncut or the better tinctured material made by an experienced individual.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bob Jameson] #177181
04/13/07 08:57 AM
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Bob who would you consider a reputible dearer than is known to sell the "real deal" and not cut their products to increase profit?

Thanks, Rob


Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #177198
04/13/07 09:16 AM
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Rob we carry a good inventory of lure and bait ingredient products. All base materials and other products are formulated by me in house. The pure essential oils, powders, musks etc come from the private labs that make them or are imported from across the world in their authentic form. Paul or Asa may carry some ingredients also depending upon what you are wanting but not sure as to their inventory selection.

You can view our ingredient selection at jamesonsultrablend.com We have items that are not listed as I dont advertise some of the more expensive items due to that reason alone. Some dont wish to pay the price for the real mccoy and are content with cut products.Just depends on your specific purpose and intended use.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Bob Jameson] #177293
04/13/07 11:11 AM
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thnx bob


Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: Kansasbert] #177688
04/13/07 05:08 PM
04/13/07 05:08 PM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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Good advice thanks very much. I can see the logic behind it. I have the glands soaking in vodka now. I won't dilute it... I will just use the minimum quantity that seems to work at each set. If I only need a drop or two, then my jar of lure should last me for hundreds of sets.

I reckon I'll call it 'Eau d'Possum'.

Much appreciated... Stephen Coote.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: whitetailaddict] #177715
04/13/07 05:32 PM
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i have tried tincturing before, but my finished prodeuct after a year smelled just like it did before i added the material, alcohol. i did use apples, so is that a possible source of error? or do you let the alcohol evaporate off after it has tincutred?


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Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: medicine man] #177932
04/13/07 08:39 PM
04/13/07 08:39 PM
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Nelson, New Zealand
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coote Offline OP
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I am not an experienced lure maker or a chemist, but I think that tincturing is for products that contain fragrant oils etc. I don't think that there would be any appreciable quantity of fragrant oil in apple flesh.

Sounds like you might be trying to catch vegetable eaters. I have found that vanilla, aniseed, cinnamon and curry powder seem to attract the vegetarians I trap in my country. I mix these fragrant ingredients with things like flour and sugar. Lately I have been stirring in butter to add a bit of moisture resistance. This certainly works for our brushtailed possums.

Re: Tincture lures - what types of alcohol are ok? [Re: coote] #177972
04/13/07 09:12 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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I agree with coote that there is little if any odor locked into apples that couldn't simply be squeezed out in the juice. Leaves like catnip, spearmint, etc are a different story. Even a year of tincturing will not extract every last potential from them, it takes distillation to do that. Ace

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