I have a few reasons why I would just as soon my traps were not center swiveled, but I'd like to hear why you guys think it may NOT be a good thing always. Lets hear em...

I will wait to hear your reasons. I like them center swiveled and have seen no negatives to it.

Are you talking canine traps or coon traps? Both?

Slim can explain it best, took me nearly 10 years and finally threats of bodily harm to tell me why, lol.

my reasons are:

costs money to do it.

takes time to do it.

other than that, fill us in.

Sounds like a personal preference. The logic behind center swiveling speaks for itself. Direct pull would limit some of the sliding/cutting of the ankle/foot. You can argue that if you side swivel the animal can pull towards the spring on a long spring trap. The other argument is that center swiveled traps are harder to bed. I use the pound down method from sullivan so the sides of the trap actualy hold it in place and made bedding easier. If you bed your trap and set the tension correctly he won't get out no matter which way you swivel. Proper bedding + trap tuning/tension = high catch

Seeing that you 2500 posts you might know something I don't, so lets here you logic. (or you just like to post a lot

haus

as for taking time and money. Unless they have changed since I bought mine, bridgers come center swivelled.

haus

yes some do come already center swiveled. But mine aren't.

The bridgers I've seen are not center swiveled, they are swiveled off a ring around the frame and not in the center of the frame.

Here's one small reason to not center swivel... they hurt your knee when you set the traps. (I got a few more reasons too but I'm keeping them to myself til I see if anyone else has thought of them)

Reasons not to center swivel a trap:
>Less junk under the trap.
>Foot pulls into the leverage of the lever opposite the attachment point. Critter can put more shock to the trap, chain and staking when everything is in a straight line. No twist induced by angle of foot in the jaws, say on a 135 degrees to end attachment instead of 180.
> Time and resources wasted, for the most part.

Reason to center swivel:
>Everyone says it's "better".

Think everyone is getting confused or maybe it's me that is. When i refer to side mounted rather than center, im talking about the base plates that the trap attachs to the BOTTOM of the frame, only off to one side somewhat rather than dead center in the middle of the plate.

Not the factory j hook sticking out the side of the frame, id never keep that set up on a coyote trap.

Thanks Dugout!

Jtrapper - I was thinking anything other than swiveled off the very bottom center of the trap is not center swiveled.

After I bought Charles Dobbins' book on adjusting traps, in 1983, I center swiveled all my traps.

I went from losing an average of 5 muskrats per trapping season-due to wring outs; this was either a 1 or 2 week vacation line. To going about 5 years before having another muskrat wring out. I am sold on center swiveling.

I fail to see how it is all that expensive or time consuming. No one is THAT busy!

Here's one small reason to not center swivel... they hurt your knee when you set the traps. (I got a few more reasons too but I'm keeping them to myself til I see if anyone else has thought of them)

I set long springs on my knee/thigh. I set my coiled springs on the ground after I have driven in the disposable stake. I am kinda tired when I start out on my line and I don't need a to forget a set trap is laying next to me and set my hand in it so I set it when I ready or nearly ready to bury it.

You got me on the off center swivel, but its darn close to center. I actualy base plated mine anyway with a D ring.

haus

Wasn't only speaking of coyote traps but since you brought it up, lets run with it... What's wrong with the set j hook off the corner of the trap in your opinion?

We're off track, i was thinking the question concerned coyote/K9 traps, if mixing in water traps too then all different kind of answers.

Big difference from a 'rat to a coyote, lol.

Your correct ADC BUT there are two different kinds of side swiveling, i like the side mounted base plates JC sells but have most rigged center swiveled, basically don't see it being that big of a deal to go changing everything out.

Haus, I get your reasons. Thanks. Personally I use a little longer chain so I can the trap to my knee if I need to, but that's another kettle of fish.

No, don't throw in the chain debate, lol.

haus

OK lets say just land trapping k9's for the purpose of this discussion. I'll get a water trapping one started later in the week.

~ADC~

Got me stumped. I'm tired and plan to bust a few squirrels in the morning. I'll check back tomorrow.

haus

Hmmm...
How long does it take to do 300 traps???

I fail to understand why you'd want a trap to be swiveled from the side on a double coil spring trap. This will cause the foot to slide to the opposite side from the swivel point and sliding can cause cuts.

Center swiveling doesn't allow the foot to slide between the jaws.

I might be dense, but it seems simple to me.

Took me about 2 minutes and 24 seconds...

Jtrapper;

Have you ever had a side mounted #6 J-hook open?

I kinda like mine center swiveled, now if i had my choice all my beaver traps would be swiveled off a D-ring but off to the side instead of the middle..Ill never advocate putting a J-hook thru the hole on the crosspiece..The last time I did that I lost a set of jaws when the frame bowed..

What if the foot was caught off to the side to begin with Paul? Then a ceneter swivel causes the foot to slide to the center, right?

Jayme I base my conclusions not only on what I have been told by experienced trappers, but also from watching animals in my traps. I like the way the center swiveling treats them hands down, anytime. I may not have time this year as I am building a barn fullof box traps, but I want all my coon traps center swiveled also, and will be welding them all after this season.

No sir dug out but i stopped using that set up not long after i started trapping, buddy bought a book called Trap Adjustments by some ol beaver trapper whose name now escapse me, lol.

Ran a peice of chain around the frame's of my 1.5's for years to get a centered up swivel action, then coyotes made me go to rhino tough bullet proof equipment.

How far would the foot travel from either far side to the center verses from the same side as swiveled to the other side? Twice as far?????

I predict a triple digit post here...

I am proof positive that # of posts does not = knowing stuff!

Momma raised a fool

There's another theory to all this Paul, as i posted had to about hold skinny up with a knife to explain it to me, save you about 1 coyote out of 100 according to him, that being a odd lone toe caught one that with a center swiveled trap would more than likely escape.

That old bald eagle thinks different than about anyone else, lol.

Me too Snowman.

Now I gotta go find my Dobbins book and look all this stuff up

Ok, J, I don't see the difference between a toe-caught coyote and a pad catch when it comes to center swiveling as opposed to side swiveling. Enlighten me please.

Cant, it's a Pedersen, Inc. trade secret, if he wish's to he can explain it, but has to be tomorrow as ol coot had to run to a airport at 4 am this morning and for fear of my life im not telling you what that was about either, lol.

I can about guess what that was about. Ole fart has a busier social calander that Coonhangman does

I'm with you Paul, and even if it saves that one toe catch, I still like the way it treats the other 99 coyotes.

Probably got summoned by the boss and had to fly to Syracuse.

True. I saw that one coming. lol

How about the theory that when the animlal is trying to pull out of the trap that the center swivel puts the foot in the one area of the trap where it would be easiest to pull out, top dead center? Any truth to that? Or total BS? Seems reasonable looking at it "on paper" I mean if you had your finger in there you'd want it in the center of the top because it pulls out easier there, right???

That explains it. She killed Slim, and now has time for T-Man.

Pooooor Slim.

I will be anxiously awaiting his explanation. This orta be good - lol.

The only reason I can think of NOT to center swivel is like has already been stated -- tough on the setting leg after a few hundred traps. But at the same time I have read a few books by very good (number wise) coon trappers that say that center swiveling is not needed but none of them go into the whys or why nots of it. I am interested in knowing some of the reasons NOT to center swivel.

Paul, I don't think it is sliding past the middle with either set up. To do so the levers would need to drop and that wouldn't be a good thing on any trap, regardless, right. The way I see it, pulling toward a lever and actually moving or sliding is two separate things. As you know, my view is based upon fox and not coyote.

Matt Jones taught me how to set traps with my feet!

Saw Steph do that in the T4K video. Broke my hand one year and had to do it.

Might look good on paper but speaking for me I have not had pullouts that are noteworthy. Be interested to hear from the others on here. If comparing what looks good on paper, to dead coyotes in the backof the truck, I'll take the coyotes in the back of the truck any day.

me too but if think about it th ecenter of the jaws is the weakest point . just the way i see it .

Drifter

It is the sliding that cuts the skin dugout. Straight pulls don't cut.

Foot only slides to the side one time Paul! After that the constant pressure applied by the animal keeps the chain tight and the foot stays put where it's at.

I would think it is better to have the foot centered in the trap, so that the jaws have equal force on the foot, plus it would also make better on the jaws, if pulling from on end I would think it would be easier to pull a jaw out of the frame, and when pulling straight from the center it would be harder, just less stress. IMO

I have always been of the strong opinion that spring strength and/or incorrect pan tension are the most common reasons for pull outs. Maybe I am wrong, never had many problems with pullouts that werent caused by my own mistake

I have always center swiveled because that's what I was always told it's best to do it and the baseplating can't hurt the strength of the trap!

KYBOY;
Wouldn't frame bowing from the center reduce the width and hold the jaws tighter?

Yeah, but the damage to slide twice as far is twice as great.

When it bowed the baseplate I guess it pulled the jaw tips at a funny angle. They were laying on the ground by the rest of the trap

Thats a good point. As I sit here with my hand in a #1.5 and pulling the chain with the other, I can see where the jaws could pull out of the attachment side of the frame but the jaws would have to fold.

I would think with baseplating that frame bowing would be a moot issue. How much chain you guys giving those coyotes?

I haven't read through the whole post yet. It's late and I have to post this before I forget.

The reason I don't center swivel my water traps is that if I set a trap on a solid bottom that I couldn't bed well in, example- limestone, rocky crick, cement. The trap wouldn't sit flat on the surface and would be tippy if it were center swiveled.
If they were side swiveled they would have a flat base and would not be as unstable.
That being that I can't find a softer spot to bed the trap in.

Keep in mind Paul Slim was doing ADC on stock killing coyotes, doubt foot comfort was at the top of the list while doing that, lol.

With a baseplated trap I would think so. Thats my main reason for baseplating..

Just use snares LOLOL then theres no debate, or is there?

Some times as much as 8' when used on a drag.

Well J, if the trap is "center swiveled" there will be no slippage because there will be a direct pull from the point of swivel to the point of catch. If the point of swivel is off center there will be a slippage of the foot to meet the center of pull, which is straight from any angle from a center pull.

I suppose if he hooked into something solid. I'm not in drag country. I suppose lot's of you guys pre hook the drags in rocky terrain?

Not to get away from the subject but I am going to bottom swivelling and three swivels in the chains on my coon traps because of the bunches of grass, etc that our water caught coons pile up at the set location. I converted a few last year and really like the way they treat the coons when they bunch up piles of water grass.

If swilved on the side and yote steps on the same?

Think we're talking two different things here:

1. Which cause's less foot damage? Centered of course.

2. Which will hold a 1 in a 100 toe caught's that would other wise escape? Side mounted but on bottom of trap.

I also feel a trap slides a certain amount even on centered traps until it gets it's final 'lock' on the foot, why most times if the animal is going to escape it's done in that first big lunge it makes after the trap first fires.

To me center is the best choice the trap is rounded and has its high spots which were the foot will end. Question is and Im thinking now , look at where the critter is caught.

J, look at the radius from center as opposed to the radius from a corner. No comparison.

It all depends on the critter.

Slim call's this discussion a can of worms and i now see why, lol.

This is a great thread, ADC, and a good discussion! We need slim to show up and help Jackie and I out, here...

It all depends on the critter, where he feels his foot feels the best.

good grief. you people think too much.

It would be nice if he'd reply. There are others out there who could add to this discussion as well. I wish I had a few thousand coyotes to my credit so I could give prefference based on that, but instead I just tried to get a good discussion going so I can learn from it as well. If I'd said I like my traps all center swiveled, not sure we'd of been almost to page three already.

Can you imagine a critter looking down at the trap and looking to find out out where the swivel is lololol?

I run alot of traps on the JC Conner style baseplate with the end hook-up D-ring. Works well for me.The yotes foot pull toward the lever where the tension is the tightest..

Thank you Bill Frank!

I wish all the big beaver traps had those kind of baseplates..Setting those big traps over your thigh with the d-ring digging in gets aggrevating..

I don't trap strictly coyotes. I do have some MB650s and they are center swiveled but we ain't got alot of rocks here. I think I have one trap that isn't center swiveled. I do alot of drowning sets and makes sense to center.

Ultimately, why do I have all mine centered. Because somebody went on and on about how centered is the only way to trap!

One other thing. I do have a bunch of 750s. I think I would rather have the fingers in them at the edges rather than the center. Believe me I've had em in there in any form or fashion you can come up with. I can usually get my knife or a pair of pliers in between the jaws at the center and pry open to get out when caught on the edges.

Is the real reason for the D-ringed baseplate frame strength OR center swiveling....or do you just basically get both for the same price(or close)?
Are Bridger traps stout enough framewise to just run a rivet thru the frame in the center, or would they bow? I have no experience with Bridgers, but know Vics will bow done this way.

Coop
Bridgers cant be to much different that J hook does open yer traps going Bye bye its for both coop

. Iam waiting on His SLIMNESS to post here he explained his style offset swiveling to me but I'd rather have him explain it.Most of my traps are set up center swiveled other than a doz or so Monty #2 RJ;s and so far that Lil bit a slip has just made the trap get a better hold or has with these there round rod lamanated. come on skinny where ya at??

Paul, I may be out of line here but...I think a few things need to be considered here...the quality of traps OVERALL have changed for the better since Charlie Dobbins wrote the Trap Mod book. Yes there were some excellently made traps when he wrote the book (Sterling MJ600, Newhouse, ie) but I think what he wrote was for the majority of trappers who were using plain old stock traps. Most of these older stock traps had alot of design flaws...weaker springs, weaker base and frames, thin jaws, cheap chain and very few swivels. Charlie's trap mod.s helped trappers hold most of the animals by using simple physics.
I may be wrong here but on most newer traps with good springs and well design spec.s the foot doesn't move much when compared to the traps of old.
My take.

Dang ol Movie star sure gets me into a lot of messes.

First I would like to say that if I sat on my trap on a muddy bank, I would want mine center swiveled too. Could loose your wallet if it was attatched to side and pants tore. lol

As the movie star said, this discussion always opens a can of worms, and then how do you get all them worms back into the can in the end.

My reasoning is a bit difficult to explain, but here goes again:

Reaction times when a trap first fires is to immediately jerk away. Even I do that when I accidently catch my fingers in a trap. Since I usually wear leather gloves, I have often just pulled my fingers out of the glove, unless one of my boney knuckles will not clear the jaws. Mentioning this, only to let you know what got me thinking along these lines, because the longer my fingers were in the traps, the more impossible it was to pull out of the glove.

Now if you wrap a rubber band around your finger real tight, it is easy to just pull on the wad of rubber and roll it off your finger tip. However if you leave it on there several minutes, it will not roll off, and you will need to pick at it and find one strand to stretch and pull off end of finger to get rest of the rubber band off. The flesh swells and takes "a set" around the rubber band.

I believe that the flesh around a trap jaws is same as around the rubber band. In other words it takes "A SET" around the jaws.

So now it is a wet or snow covered morning, when animal's feet are wet and hair is slick.

When trap first fires, the animals react and jerk away or jump away-----center swiveled trap, the pull is straight out of the trap, but off set attatchment, the foot pulls towards opposite corner of the trap, instead of out of the trap. And of course, too, there is some slight difference if the jaws are round or square, but only very slight difference, and that is another can of worms to be opened, so will let that one lay for now.

Bottom line in the end, is that if just fur trapping the difference is so minor that it really is not worth all the fuss to worry about it all, but if spending months attempting to catch that one smart animal, and then have it escape when you do manage to get ahold of it, because it managed to jerk out of the trap, that slight difference becomes extremely important.

Anyway, that is my reasoning, and when I did attach my chain to side instead of center, it soon became apparent that I had much less toe caught animals with side attatchment than with direct center attatchment.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I know no other way to help someone else understand my thoughts about this subject.

Of course when your new trap hits the market, none of this will matter. Thanks for splainin it to us Slim.

Thanks Slim now it makes more sense with that explination . Sometimes can't see the forest for the trees in my way .

Drifter

I agree with k9,from what i have seen when that new trap hits none of this will matter. Dang i would like to get my hands on some of them before dec.

Dang ol Wannabe reporter cop anyway, you would bring that up, just to prove that even I do not always do what I say to do. The new trap WILL be center swiveled, but that is because of the rotating jaws, which throws yet another set of physic laws into the equation.

Butch: I would love to get my hands on some before then too. lol

rereading what I had wrote above, I realize that I did not finish explaining: After the animal makes that initial reaction pull away, and foot slides towards side instead of pulling out, the animal will put the foot back onto the ground, and then bite at the trap, turning this way and that way---all giving time to let the flesh take that "set" around the trap.

Great stuff thus far!

Any truth to the rumor that an animal can get a foot on one of the levers and release pressure off his foot somewhat easier with the center swivel?

~ADC~

i think someones been thinking waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard about toecaught coyotes escaping, or they are using incredibly weak springs.

I'm not even smart and I can tell the physics of the new trap will not be comparable to "normal" traps. I have not seen a coyote in one yet but I am guessing that you would want evrything to remain "centered" with that trap. Also my common sense tells me a toe catch with work it's way into a foot catch the more the coyote moves around and steps down on it.

So if you were too tired to adjust or bed your trap properly then a side swivel may save 1 out of 100 yotes?

You guys better run out and buy all those new KB traps that get tighter when the animal takes that initial run.

The initial lunge is lessened by a 9-12" chain. How much speed can a yote build up in a foot? Not much, especialy when you figure they will run away from the site. Front foot catch will mean that he is going to run out of chain quick and take a nose dive in the dirt. Then as suggested above he can bite the trap or try another lunge. The die hard yote trappers also feel the need to add shock springs, which will lessen the force even more. The next argument is the verticle lunge. This is also reduced by a short chain. Todays disposables of the proper length don't pump out. I like bobcats more than yotes but I set everything expecting it to handle a yote. They get into bobcats sets also.

Glad I didn't stay up any later last night waiting for an answer.
You guys have more trapping experience maybe, but I disagree with the side swivel idea.

The other thing I read is the cost of center swiveling/base plating 300 traps. You can order the individual kits which is expensive or spend about the same amount of money on a press and cut your metal to length and make your own plates and just order the D rings. When your done you have spent some money but now you have one more tool in the shop. How many years will a quality trap last? After you "trick" them out the only thing left is pan adjustment each year(and after catches) and replace springs as needed. Unless your one of those guys that sells his equipment every year. The price of a good trap goes up almost yearly so its smart just to keep your equipment.

Sorry I got long winded,

haus

Great stuff thus far!

Any truth to the rumor that an animal can get a foot on one of the levers and release pressure off his foot somewhat easier with the center swivel?

~ADC~


Eastern coyotes are notorious for this. It is simply because they are so darn smart.
Mac

I just knew this one was gonna hit a 100+ posts and be archieves bound...good info from people that know.

It takes time...
It cost money...
I don't see the logic in it so why do it?
I mod my chains, (link chain, 6 inches with 4 or 5 swivel points), pans are level and night latched. Every trap I own is exactly the way I want it or it doesn't get set. I'll change a trap if there is the slightest issue at a set. If I don't like the trap I get a different trap.
I'm just not going to do a modification to a trap because the masses, or intuition says so. Too many things in this world are counter-intuitive so I don't trust intuition, sometimes. I would rather trust facts.

To quote Mr. Pedersen, "Bottom line in the end, is that if just fur trapping the difference is so minor that it really is not worth all the fuss to worry about it all..."

I'm not a coyote trapper, but like everyone else, I will be sooner then I would choose. I know enough to listen to experienced Coyote trappers who have spent time considering the difference of a modification like this. Mr. Pederson isn't the only voice in the storm...
I actually have cut the D-rings off modified traps and gone back to the end frame J-hook or bottom side attachment.

This is one of the great debates...

You stick your finger in one of my yote traps it aint coming out no matter where you pull from. At least thats my fingers opinion. Its been there a few times. LOL

Dugout,
You have your traps the way you want, then there is no reason to complain about the price to modify them. Your not going to do it anyway. Don't change what works for you. Didn't mean to pull your chain either. One mans $1 bill is another mans $20. What I think is cheap may be really expensive to the next guy.

haus

I feel like dumping my box of traps out and getting them ready now, lol.

haus

Any truth to the rumor that an animal can get a foot on one of the levers and release pressure off his foot somewhat easier with the center swivel?

This came from the coon trappers as the coon may stand up on the levers while pulling up against the trapped foot and accidentally release himself.

Dugout, when the coyotes do finally become your target if you catch enough of them your thoughts on base plates will change. I didn't base plate any of my traps because its what the mass's are doing, i started doing it after every trap i owned ended up warped up!

K9 wolfers were the worst of the bunch, not from coyotes jerking on them but from 4 real strong springs on them, in time they begin to warp the frame. Doubt you need a four coiled trap to hold a wimpy red fox though so not an issue for you, YET, lol.

You didn't pull my chain. This is a good debate. Cost may be a deterrent but it isn't really the deciding factor. If I thought I would hold one more critter, and not lose more critters I would do it in a blink. That is what summer is for, right?

Glad to hear you enjoy debate. When I started I read and heard that you modify your trap for yotes since they get into anything. Only draw back to a tricked out trap so far is that a grey fox in a fully modified #2 will break something in a hurry. Checking traps very early in the morning helps, but the little greys don't do as good in a heavy trap. Bobcats in my area do just fine with modified #2's and #3's. I'm still hoping someday to have a mountain lion step in a fully modified bridger #3 and see how she holds up to that abuse.

haus

The little #1 northwoods double coil was about the friendliest trap there ever was for grey fox, they not made out of much, grey fox that is, not the trap, lol.

Haven't had too many problems though with double laminated 2's.

I cant see an animal consistantly being able to put a paw down on a lever to release pressure myself. Every great once in a while possibly but not with any consistancy. I feel funny even replying to this as Im sure Im not saying anything that hasnt already been said. Anyway I like center swiveling for a stright pull and also I believe swiveling from a D-ring is a better swiveling point than a J-hhok in the corner anyway. You have two swiveling points instead of one and I have had a j-hook in the corner get clogged up a great deal more than a bottom center swiveled trap. Thats my exp anyway....

I have many of my traps center swiveled, but the weight adds up fast. When I set on a longer line, I use lighter traps (not baseplated), really short chains and shorter rebar for cross staking. On shorter lines, I like how tough baseplating makes the traps. Some of my base plates are offset. I do not have enough experience to comment on which is most effective.

Thanks,
Brian

Jtrapper I agree with this statement, this is the reason I have base plated almost all of mine, I think I have one right now that is bent out of shape and needs fixed, once I started doing this I haven't had another one bent.

Wow! This is a great thread! Slim gave me the same explanation he gave you, Jackie. I put some "Off-center swivelled" baseplates on after we spoke. I didn't cut the baseplates off the ones I'd previously center-swivelled, though.

I'm certainly no big predator trapper, but when the experienced guys like Slim, Paul, and Jackie speak- I listen.

I will say one thing, however. You can sure tell the Rebs from the Yankees on this thread! You don't see any Northern Boys complaining about D-rings biting into their legs. Heck, I can't even FEEL the D-ring through long underwear, jeans, and Lacrosse Outriggers! LOL

Great discussion and a lot of great info, guys! Thanks for sharing!

John

If Charlie said it, I believe it. That's the end of it.
Seriously, in 17 years of trapping, I have no reason to disagree with Charlie Dobbins or any other trapper that supports center-swiveling. I don't mind the extra few bucks to modify my traps. I sure ain't making things worse. So to heck with it. I'll stick with center-swiveling.

I run ADC lines all year long, I cant take chances on every set I make. The last thing I want is to be wasting extra days tryin to catch that last yote on a job. I started using offset D ring baseplates years ago, no one ever told me that this was better way of doin it.It was just a matter of lookin at a trap and thinking "what could I do to make my chances better" at holdin on to the yote. After trapping east of the Mississippi with other USDA guys a learned I was not the only one who had been "thinkin".

For the record all my traps are base plated and center swiveled and mostly shock springed.

BUT, if I didn't base plate stock traps, I would consider useing the hookup on the side of the trap.

A standard trap that is not base plated, BUT center swiveled is no good when dealing with a big "Eastern Alfa Coyote"......the coyote will pull straight up on the trap causeing the base to bend in the middle and then jaws pop out (anyone hear ever have that happen?)No coyote just a trap that had jaws poped out....this mainly only happens to non-baseplated traps.

If the trap chain is attacted to the side (of a non-base plated trap) the chance of poping out the jaws is decreased because the yote doesn't have the chance to pull in the middle of the base causeing it to flex and pop the jaws.

What if the foot is already at the opposite corner of the trap? I think the end result might be very similar.

Actually,I think side swiveling is the way to go on a stock 1.75 or #2.I believe you'll get fewer popped jaws.If I was going with a fully modified trap I'd go with the center swiveling because it's easier on greys.