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Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out #4634960
09/05/14 07:06 PM
09/05/14 07:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,404
NC
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bowhunter27295 Offline OP
trapper
bowhunter27295  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,404
NC
I have told a few people I would post the results of my research about "chicken tractors" and what the final product looks like. Many, many thanks go to several people and a great friend who helped me brainstorm and assemble. Without his help and "push", this would have still been on the drawing board.

A special thanks goes to Patrice. She LOVES chickens and was a wealth of knowledge, help and inspiration. Hats off to you Patrice.

Here we go.



This is the finished product. My daughter's chickens are golden buffs (sex link). They are a RIW male and RIR female cross. 4 lb adults with 250 eggs/year.

The frame is 2 inch angle in a 8' X 8"5" box. The door is the same angle framed in and welded with hinges welded on. The door "knobs" are quick links installed through holes drilled in the door and door frame. The coop hoop is 2 panels of livestock panel bought from tractor supply. The entire coop is covered over with chicken wire zip tied in place at all cross points and where else needed. It took about 800. No kidding.

The front and back were welded on with another 2 pieces of livestock panel cut to fit.

It was then covered with a tarp. I had to use a rather large tarp to cover it down to about 1 foot off the ground for cover and to allow for air flow.


This is the reinforcing angle at each corner.



This is a 5/8" bolt welded on as an axle for the wheels that are put on the back when the coop is moved. Ensure your wheels have a 5/8" arbor.



These are the wheels I use. Bought at Harbor Freight.



This is the tongue welded onto the front of the coop for the dolly used to lift the front of the coop to roll the tractor.




This is the wheel mounted to the axle and how it fits.





This is the nest box bought from craigslist from a chicken house operation being upgraded. Got it for $10. Mounted 1/2" treated plywood to the back of it and mounted it to the coop frame with stainless S hooks.





This is the fence. It is a solar charger grounded to the coop. The fence is stood off the coop via 2 ft sections of rebar welded to the frame and installed on plastic, electric fence standoffs. You can touch the coop, no problem. You can touch the fence and get a tickle. Touch both and you get 5500 yellow jackets pounding your hand. It is four strand with the top two strands having a disconnect on opposite sides at the door to minimize a possible ladder for "ricky" or "opie".

We move the coop about every three days. This gives the chickens fresh bugs, grass and weeds and cleans and fertilizes the yard 8 sq feet at a time. It's pretty neat and the chickens are very content. Five chicken and we are getting 4-5 eggs/day. I never knew they were so social. Neat animals.

I know it looks like overkill but I wanted to do something that will keep my daughter from crying when she finds one of her chickens dead. I know it looks heavy, but it's really not that bad.

I am up for any critique to make this a better coop so if you see an improvement that can be made, please sound off.

Here's some pics of the ladies and their food and water dispenser. I drilled a 1/8" hole on the top of the water bowl to hang it from the inside of the coop. I hung the feeder and waterer with fence wire. It's been great for my daughter as she has to get up at 5:45 every morning to take care of HER chickens. I told her when we got them it was up to her whether they live or die. She has really taken ownership of her livestock and I am proud of her. We are feeding them a mix of laying mash, starter (leftover) and a dash of oyster shell.

We have raised them from chicks. We bought them April 5th. I suggested buying five as I figured one would die. Well, with the way she takes care of them, that didn't happen. I'm glad now. I've been eating lots of eggs. I LOVE hen fruit.

Hope you enjoyed and I hope this helps someone else. If you have questions, feel free to pm me.






How many lies will people believe before they realize their own idiocy?
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4634973
09/05/14 07:12 PM
09/05/14 07:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,837
Magna, Utah
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GritGuy Offline
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Magna, Utah
Looks great, however them zip ties ain't going to last you, they will UV out in a year, you better get some large hog rings and replace them before you have to do the whole thing.

Happy Chicks are great dinners !!


[Linked Image]

Sorry if my opinions or replies offend you, they are not meant to !

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4634977
09/05/14 07:15 PM
09/05/14 07:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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North East Kansas
smile


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4634979
09/05/14 07:16 PM
09/05/14 07:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,760
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Central, SD
Spot lights for night time? wink


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4634997
09/05/14 07:28 PM
09/05/14 07:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 163
North Michigan
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ejf Offline
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North Michigan
Originally Posted By: bowhunter27295
Originally Posted By: GritGuy
Looks great, however them zip ties ain't going to last you, they will UV out in a year, you better get some large hog rings and replace them before you have to do the whole thing.

Happy Chicks are great dinners !!


They are the outdoor UV grade zip ties. I have no idea how long they will last but I bought outdoor grade in hopes it would last a while. Are the UV zip ties not very sturdy?


UV zip ties last a long time ....

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635031
09/05/14 07:54 PM
09/05/14 07:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,837
Magna, Utah
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GritGuy Offline
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Magna, Utah
We made a bird cage at my work for the boss, he love guineas and chuckers, first year used the Non UV zip's and by the end of the next spring we had to replace them, maybe you got a better brand.

We just ended up using the hog rings, thats why I suggested them, as the zips failed so badly, did not want you having un-wanted visitors in your pen is all !


[Linked Image]

Sorry if my opinions or replies offend you, they are not meant to !

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635097
09/05/14 08:34 PM
09/05/14 08:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,986
Shenandoah County, VA
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l1ranger Offline
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Shenandoah County, VA
looks good, solid and sturdy.

I built one this spring. thought about the tractor, but opted for a wood shed instead. they have a fenced in area right now to keep them out of the garden, but I will free range them soon. always lock them up tight at night.


Josh
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635122
09/05/14 08:52 PM
09/05/14 08:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,551
Clio,Michigan 33 yrs. old
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travelintinner Offline
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Clio,Michigan 33 yrs. old
Nice


ANFN http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iqnMrynpq9U none are more hopelessly enslaved then those who believe they are free!
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635141
09/05/14 09:03 PM
09/05/14 09:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 137
Southwest Virginia
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C.O. Trapper Offline
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Southwest Virginia
Very nice we have about 8 layers now and I'd like to make one of these to run over my garden plot.


"Beaver will shine again."
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635160
09/05/14 09:19 PM
09/05/14 09:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,146
NC
Buzzard Offline
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Buzzard  Offline
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NC
grin

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635213
09/05/14 09:45 PM
09/05/14 09:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,015
SE Iowa USA
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AKAjust Offline
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SE Iowa USA
It would be a good idea to put a cover over your feed.
Eventhough it looks to be under the tarp sometimes it rains sideways and wet feed is messy and time consuming to clean up.
just

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635250
09/05/14 10:10 PM
09/05/14 10:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

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McGrath, AK
Nice thread but too much bickering


Mean As Nails
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635736
09/06/14 09:56 AM
09/06/14 09:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
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tmrschessie  Offline
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South Central Nebraska age 71
I cleaned this one up so the trappers wanting to learn how to do something productive can. Tom

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635752
09/06/14 10:07 AM
09/06/14 10:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
T-Rex Offline
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T-Rex  Offline
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WI>>>MN >>>WI
I don't know if the UV zip ties will last or not. After my regular ones failed I started using trapping wire. A $5.00 wire twister used for positioning rebar in concrete makes it quick, cheap, and durable.


Man who mistake shillelagh for fairy wand; see pixie dust, also.
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635764
09/06/14 10:17 AM
09/06/14 10:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 607
NC
R
Ray B Offline
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NC
Quote:
I cleaned this one up so the trappers wanting to learn how to do something productive can. Tom


Thanks Tom!!!!

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635801
09/06/14 10:50 AM
09/06/14 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
trapper
tmrschessie  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
Your more then welcome Ray...

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635846
09/06/14 11:38 AM
09/06/14 11:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 314
Upstate, S.C.
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Carcat Offline
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Upstate, S.C.
I have both a tractor and a pen/coop. I stopped using the tractor because of the extra effort to feed and water them. In my pen/coop, feeding is easy and the automatic drip waterer is very reliable. But for your situation it appears that your tractor is perfect. Being able to weld is a huge plus!

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635848
09/06/14 11:40 AM
09/06/14 11:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
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tmrschessie  Offline
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Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
Originally Posted By: bowhunter27295
Thank you Tom.
Took care of the other one per your request. Thank you all for this one and all the civil replies. Tom

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4635899
09/06/14 12:10 PM
09/06/14 12:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
trapper
tmrschessie  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
Originally Posted By: bowhunter27295
The other plus to welding is you can fix your mistakes. Once you make a mistake with wood, you have to get more wood.


LOL I have found that out the hard way...Tom

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636137
09/06/14 04:27 PM
09/06/14 04:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28
Michigan,Allegan Country
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ghulst Offline
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Michigan,Allegan Country
Neat looking chicken coop. You over did the nest boxes. One 12 by 12 box would be enough for up to ten hens. I don't see a roosting pole. You do need one that is higher then the nests. That will keep the hens from roosting in the nest. That will keep the eggs clearner.
Those hens are red sex links. They are made from a red (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) on a white hen. They are production bred brown egg layers. The best egg layers that you will find. Ours will lay about 330 eggs a year. There is no RI's in them. We sell ISA browns at the hatchery that I work at. You will like them.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: ghulst] #4636155
09/06/14 04:43 PM
09/06/14 04:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165
Central NC
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traprjohn Offline
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Posts: 11,165
Central NC
Originally Posted By: ghulst
I don't see a roosting pole. You do need one that is higher THAN the nests.


x2 Darien.....poles are a very good thing......the only other thing I don't see is the access panel to get eggs from the rear. You may have seen this when researching and vetoed the idea...yes a lil more time/labor. But on those Sunday mornings when everyone has overslept it sure makes egg grabbin' fast.

I sure hope your bringing it to Convention to do a demo!

Nice job!


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636159
09/06/14 04:44 PM
09/06/14 04:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165
Central NC
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traprjohn Offline
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Central NC
Originally Posted By: bowhunter27295
Originally Posted By: Law Dog
Spot lights for night time? wink


Do they make solar DC motion spotlights? Daddy like this idea. grin


All you need is a small converter my friend!


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636185
09/06/14 05:04 PM
09/06/14 05:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
Western North Carolina
ToxawayTrapper Offline
trapper
ToxawayTrapper  Offline
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Posts: 19
Western North Carolina
Great looking coop. I have a stationary coop next to the house but I am looking to put a tractor down in the pasture. Great pics and ideas. Thanks

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636541
09/06/14 10:10 PM
09/06/14 10:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
VT
ratcatcher Offline
trapper
ratcatcher  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
VT
Dude that is one scary coop.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636761
09/07/14 04:35 AM
09/07/14 04:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
trapper
tmrschessie  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
This being the first cycle the eggs on average will be smaller, second and succeeding cycles the eggs get larger and further between eggs per hen. Tom

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636855
09/07/14 09:12 AM
09/07/14 09:12 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 848
Michigan
coonlove Offline
trapper
coonlove  Offline
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 848
Michigan
All I can say is WOW. If my chickens even SEE that penthouse-they will go on strike! Just yesterday a cooper's hawk made off with one of the "slow learners" hatched this year.....Made a believer out of the rest.


"I'm the paterfamilias"
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636885
09/07/14 09:39 AM
09/07/14 09:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 162
Rochester MN-ish
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Dawgcatcher Offline
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Dawgcatcher  Offline
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D

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 162
Rochester MN-ish
That's very cool !
If we had a milder climate, I would be all over a tractor-type enclosure. As it is now, we have a 6-foot chain link surrounding about 2/3
of our 3/4 acre property, so we get up every morning and open a small door for them to free range all day while we are at work.

Then they proceed to poop all over the back steps, and deck requiring a daily hose-down to keep things clean

Very nice job !

PS: I cannot believe there was bickering on this thread,,,,,, (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) ?


Whatsamatta boy? Don't you like clowns ?
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636892
09/07/14 09:44 AM
09/07/14 09:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 148
Wyoming, Illinois
The Savage Offline
trapper
The Savage  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 148
Wyoming, Illinois
pretty cool...but I think I would have used wire instead of zips, but like you said nothing is getting in or out


My friends call me "The Savage"
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4636907
09/07/14 09:55 AM
09/07/14 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
tmrschessie Offline
trapper
tmrschessie  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,720
South Central Nebraska age 71
CL mine have to watch out for everything from the hawks and owls to the coyotes and grinners. Had to keep them fenced this year...lost nearly 50 last year. Trapped coon and coyotes and thought I had it controlled ....NOT....lol the girls are safe now anyhow. The have a covered area to run to and an open...fenced area to scratch around in. Tom

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4637092
09/07/14 01:06 PM
09/07/14 01:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,792
Sauk County, WI
Patrice Offline
"TMan Feed Gestapo "
Patrice  Offline
"TMan Feed Gestapo "

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,792
Sauk County, WI
Just catching up after the Wisconsin convention and Trapperman Feed ...

Wow, Bowhunter! That is one fine chicken tractor!
Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
(That's the girls approving.)

That is beautiful. They have to be loving the new sprouts and bugs and patch to explore every few days! If you're looking for a roost for them, I might make a couple of suggestions too. First, I agree with the suggestion about the height. They usually like to roost for the night on the highest (within reason) roost, so if you hang a roost a little higher than the perches on the nest boxes, that should keep them away from pooping on the boxes at night. Second, use either dimensional lumber with the biggest flat side up, or a tree branch a few inches in diameter or more for your roosts. Although their feet are beautiful and look wickedly strong, they are really, really weak and it's hard for them to hang onto anything smooth and cylindrical. If you use lumber or irregular wood, they can rest a little easier!

Beautiful! Just beautiful! Thanks for posting!


WTA District 9 Director ... Go D9!
Member: WTA, Intertel, Mensa (Trappers ain't stupid.)
Life Member: NRA
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4637099
09/07/14 01:18 PM
09/07/14 01:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,177
Albany, NY
B
bobsheedy Offline
trapper
bobsheedy  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,177
Albany, NY

Pretty impressive!

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4638574
09/08/14 04:36 PM
09/08/14 04:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,460
havelock, NC
Rye Offline
trapper
Rye  Offline
trapper

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Posts: 4,460
havelock, NC
They are crappin in the layin' boxes because thats where they are sleeping. They should sleep on a roost pole, and lay in the egg boxes..

It's a nice house for sure, but I'd not call it a winter house by any means.. cold winds will rip right through it. They need something that is wind/rain proof to get out of the weather. They can be wet, they can be cold, but can't be cold and wet. Just what I've read..

Need a rooster?


"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living; the world owes you nothing; it was here first. "
--Mark Twain.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4638698
09/08/14 06:25 PM
09/08/14 06:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,441
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"
Sharon  Offline
"American Honey"

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,441
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
I just saw this fantastic thread.

What a wonderful job you did for the wee ones!

Patrice is exactly correct about the roosts. I use wide flat shelves for years they all my guys and gals love. When they're older or gimpy they can just list over to one side all night like a grounded ship.

You're very kind.
Not only to those helpless who are in your charge but to your daughter and her happiness at seeing them well.

Its not only herself that cries when something happens to one of them-there are grown ups that also feel the same towards their feathered ones.

Ive sure enjoyed seeing the attention to detail and care you've gone to in the building of that fine tractor.

Tis mighty.
cool

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4638779
09/08/14 07:02 PM
09/08/14 07:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,082
NY
SnareLine Offline
trapper
SnareLine  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,082
NY
Saving this!


Hiding our humane dispatches doesn't keep the Antis from showing their own gruesome ones. In this 1 sided story, who will the public believe, then?
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4639161
09/08/14 10:37 PM
09/08/14 10:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,981
Rock Springs, WI
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Zim Offline
trapper
Zim  Offline
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Z

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,981
Rock Springs, WI
I have no idea how tough your winters are in NC. That is a mighty fine looking outfit by the way but for the cold months you could fasten plywood sides to the structure and pull the tarp over that to keep out the rain or snow. As said above, chickens can take some pretty cold weather but wet, cold and wind will not work too much in your favor. Our birds will venture out in zero degree temps for a short time on the plowed areas around their coop and our home and then head back in for a warmup under the heat lamp in the coop.

Zim

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4639203
09/08/14 11:15 PM
09/08/14 11:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 25,386
williams,mn
trapper les Offline
trapper
trapper les  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 25,386
williams,mn
Nice job,Bowhunter


"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4644551
09/12/14 02:08 PM
09/12/14 02:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,460
havelock, NC
Rye Offline
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Rye  Offline
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Given how you've built it I am not sure.. I'd consider backing it up against a coop. The tarps/plastic might work. I'm cautious when it comes to plastic and long term... it just never lasts...


"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living; the world owes you nothing; it was here first. "
--Mark Twain.

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4747676
11/17/14 01:36 PM
11/17/14 01:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,146
NC
Buzzard Offline
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Thought about "Alcatraz" this morn while it was monsoonin........how did you end up winterizing fort knox ?

Re: Chicken Alcatraz..nobody gets in...nobody gets out [Re: bowhunter27295] #4747699
11/17/14 01:47 PM
11/17/14 01:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,082
NY
SnareLine Offline
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NY
Originally Posted By: bowhunter27295
Originally Posted By: Law Dog
Spot lights for night time? wink


Do they make solar DC motion spotlights? Daddy like this idea. grin



Just noticed that part...

I would be reluctant to buy any of the solar powered battery charging ones...they usually stop working after a couple of weeks, for whatever reason, including the more expensive ones.

But I haven't tried all of the ones out there, or course, so some members may know of really good ones!


Hiding our humane dispatches doesn't keep the Antis from showing their own gruesome ones. In this 1 sided story, who will the public believe, then?
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