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#6076859 - 12/06/17 08:30 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
If a Christian is a light unto the world and he decorates a cake celebrating a union that according to the Bible is an abomination, what will the world think? Maybe we ought to have a weekly prayer meeting at the strip club.


I'm betting 10 people at most would have known he bake a cake for those guys.

You even admitted that they only went there to stir the pot. If he had made the cake you think they would have said, "Oh (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) no, you're a Christian and we ain't leaving until you refuse to bake a cake for us!"

lol.....Good stuff.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076881 - 12/06/17 08:42 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2275
Loc: Arkansas
What if those ten people had an understanding of sin according to the Bible, yet were not saved? Do they see his action as hypocritical and scoff at Christianity?

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#6076888 - 12/06/17 08:45 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Bruce T Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 24438
Loc: Northern Maine
God would have known
_________________________
2017 goals:
100 muskrats-114 muskrats
10 mink-1 mink
2 otter
1 bobcat

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#6076916 - 12/06/17 09:04 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
What if those ten people had an understanding of sin according to the Bible, yet were not saved? Do they see his action as hypocritical and scoff at Christianity?


How many are thinking that with the whole "love your neighbor as yourself" after he made a spectacle out of it?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076918 - 12/06/17 09:06 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Bruce T]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
God would have known


He sure did.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077035 - 12/06/17 11:23 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Kart29]
yotetrapper30 Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 7304
Loc: Oakland, MS
Originally Posted By: Kart29


I think you are on the right track Lugnut. Discrimination happens all the time and there is not necessarily anything wrong with it. For example, just apply for auto insurance from a preferred rate insurance company after getting your third DUI. Try getting a job with a history of embezzlement on your criminal record. Try getting the preferred rates on medical insurance if you are a tobacco user. Try getting a new car loan 6-weeks after your bankruptcy goes through. Do you think you might face discrimination? Heck yes you will and there's no law against it.



THIS. Discrimination happens every day. Smoking cigarettes is a choice, one that is legal. But you will pay out your ears for health insurance, when someone else the exact same age, of the same health, will pay less than half of what you do. How is that not discrimination? Because it's a choice?

No matter what anyone, anywhere says, homosexuality IS a choice. People say "they were born like that". I don't believe that, but let's just assume that IS true. Well hundreds of thousands of people have also been born heterosexual that then CHOSE to remain abstinent due to religious beliefs... so even if you ARE born only desiring the same sex, it's obviously possible to not ACT on those feelings, as so many others have done.

I can choose whether to smoke a cigarette, drink and then drive, or sleep with someone, regardless of their sex. Choices.

Some things you don't have a choice about. Your race. Your gender. Your age. That is what discrimination needs to be about... things you cannot control.

And if anyone makes the argument that homosexuals just "cannot help themselves, they're born that way, they can't change it".... then the same would NEED to be said for those that were "born" only attracted to goats, or 5 year old girls.

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#6077068 - 12/07/17 04:36 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: yotetrapper30]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: yotetrapper30

THIS. Discrimination happens every day. Smoking cigarettes is a choice, one that is legal. But you will pay out your ears for health insurance, when someone else the exact same age, of the same health, will pay less than half of what you do. How is that not discrimination? Because it's a choice?

No matter what anyone, anywhere says, homosexuality IS a choice. People say "they were born like that". I don't believe that, but let's just assume that IS true. Well hundreds of thousands of people have also been born heterosexual that then CHOSE to remain abstinent due to religious beliefs... so even if you ARE born only desiring the same sex, it's obviously possible to not ACT on those feelings, as so many others have done.

I can choose whether to smoke a cigarette, drink and then drive, or sleep with someone, regardless of their sex. Choices.

Some things you don't have a choice about. Your race. Your gender. Your age. That is what discrimination needs to be about... things you cannot control.

And if anyone makes the argument that homosexuals just "cannot help themselves, they're born that way, they can't change it".... then the same would NEED to be said for those that were "born" only attracted to goats, or 5 year old girls.


Sounds like you would be ok with "hey, come back after you get rid of those tattoos."

Employment is a whole different animal than public service. Yes there are examples of discrimination in the service industry, age discrimination is one that comes readily to mind however, the reasoning behind it is safety and welfare of the individual and others whether insurance regulated or government. I'm not saying it's necessary, it's just what society has deemed "agreeable". That little disclaimer is for those who feel "survival of the fittest and natural selection is the only true freedom." You know who you are, no need to place a booger here.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077072 - 12/07/17 04:43 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077073 - 12/07/17 04:46 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
micheal Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 1737
Loc: Saginaw, Mi
A person should be able to decide weather to serve someone or not.

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#6077097 - 12/07/17 05:18 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5666
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Sounds like you would be ok with "hey, come back after you get rid of those tattoos."

Employment is a whole different animal than public service.


Owning a business is not public service. As a business owner, if I choose not to remodel a kitchen for someone because I don't like his/her tattoos, it should be my choice.

I should not be punished by the government and forced to work for anyone I choose not to as long as my objections are legal e.g., the guy has a reputation for stiffing contractors, I don't like his white power tattoos or maybe the guy is just an annoying jackwad and I don't want to spend a couple of months in his house building an addition.

In my opinion, the baker's religious objection to decorating a cake in a manner promoting homosexuality was not illegal discrimination.
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6077145 - 12/07/17 06:12 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
And we are waiting on the courts decision.

If you have a business and a business license then you most certainly are "serving the public." I'm not talking government vs private sector in the employment capacity. My mistake for not making that clear. I forget how emotions cloud the view sometimes.

For the record, it is true anyone can serve or not serve the rub is in the reason given for not serving as Hup pointed out.

People don't get jobs because of being "under qualified or over qualified" all the time. That brush is pretty broad. When you open your mouth and "pin striping" comes out then it's an issue.


Edited by HobbieTrapper (12/07/17 06:13 AM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

Top
#6077150 - 12/07/17 06:14 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?


Nobody???
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

Top
#6077157 - 12/07/17 06:21 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Hupurest]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5666
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Im looking for someone that wants to wager $20 on the outcome.

I say Baker loses...

at the outcome of the case, loser of the bet, makes a post saying the winner is smarter and better looking then them, and makes a$20 donation to the Tman discretionary fund.


I'd love to take that bet but it looks like is a four-four split and Kennedy is going to be the justice to make the decision. He has a history of deciding in favor of gay rights but is also a champion of the First Amendment...

Spot me two justices?
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6077183 - 12/07/17 06:58 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
Discrimination takes place every day, and the publicity of it all depends upon how it was handled, and how either of the parties wish to "air their grievances".

Case in point:

My son is in his 2nd year of college, majoring in Business Administration- Human Resources. He is currently doing Junior level, core studies. Right now he is in the top 15% of his class. He is on track to graduate early, with either a double minor included, or possibly a double major.

During his breaks, he tries to find temporary employment to help pay his college costs. The kicker? He's paralyzed from the waist down. No one will hire a kid in a wheelchair.

Here are some snippets from his last interview:

So I guess you can't stock the top shelves, huh?
We would have to modify the cash register so you could work there.....
A lot of our aisles are pretty tight, not sure you would fit down them....
If you had to lift 50 lbs off of the ground and carry to a customer's car, how would you do that?

We could call ADA and really make a stink. But why bother? This is typical in the workplace and we don't have an axe to grind. BUT, we do find a lot of businesses that we will no longer do business with, AND we make sure family and friends are aware of the situation, and let them make their own determination as well.

It's all about making waves and getting recognition. Too much victim mentality in this country. You can't legislate that away.


Edited by RKG (12/07/17 07:05 AM)

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#6077188 - 12/07/17 07:05 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
You don't feel doing nothing is a disservice to the altered abilities community?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

Top
#6077201 - 12/07/17 07:17 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
We've fought the public school system (ended up homeschooling), fought with establishments (private and public), we Fight currently with insurance, with financial aid, with social security, with handicap parking... you name it. Been doing it for 20 years.

Have to pick and choose which fights to fights and which ones we just can't. Every family that is in a similar situation as ours, is in the same boat, (and yes, we are very well connected with the disabled community).

Most people have no clue what disabled physically, but able mentally and ability, go through.

Not going to take it to the Supreme Court. Don't have the money, don't have the time, don't want the notoriety. Just want to give my son whatever opportunity I can.

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#6077212 - 12/07/17 07:25 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: RKG]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: RKG
We've fought the public school system (ended up homeschooling), fought with establishments (private and public), we Fight currently with insurance, with financial aid, with social security, with handicap parking... you name it. Been doing it for 20 years.

Have to pick and choose which fights to fights and which ones we just can't. Every family that is in a similar situation as ours, is in the same boat, (and yes, we are very well connected with the disabled community).

Most people have no clue what disabled physically, but able mentally and ability, go through.

Not going to take it to the Supreme Court. Don't have the money, don't have the time, don't want the notoriety. Just want to give my son whatever opportunity I can.


Your story is one of the few times I wish I was a lawyer.

God bless you and your family.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077218 - 12/07/17 07:31 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
You don't feel doing nothing is a disservice to the altered abilities community?


As long as I'm fired up (currently fighting another fight on his behalf as I type this...), like me give you another form of discrimination he has experienced and no one seems to realize it.

We sometimes attend trapping shows or fur sales, whatever. He rolls up in his wheelchair and you can see the looks. I know what they're thinking, cause soon some are saying it outloud.

He asks a question to a presenter or seller, and they start to give him the answer in almost a childish way. Let they think he wants to be a big time trapper, but that wheelchair.......

Guess what? That kid can out trap, out skin, out flesh, out fish, out hunt almost everyone that I know (Speed goat @ 500 yards in a 15 mph crosswind after a 1 hour stalk where he pushed that chair through the prairie for over half a mile. Bang flopped it.). When the occasional person comes to me and starts with the "Wow, sorry about your son.." speech, I tell them, "Don't let the wheelchair fool you. That kid can do whatever he puts his mind to. Just get out of his way, give him the tools he needs, and let him do it."

We dropped off furs at a sale once, and the guy said, "You two make a good team.". I replied, "These are all my son's pelts." He looked at my son and began to chuckle, like I had made a joke. When he saw I was serious, he changed expression in a hurry.

Easy to judge the baker in this situation, but we all do it. Just some of us don't do it as public or have a scene made about it.



Edited by RKG (12/07/17 07:36 AM)

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#6077249 - 12/07/17 08:00 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9834
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Judging the situation not the individual.

I must confess, I was very uncomfortable around individuals with disabilities. A childhood friend injured in a farming accident lived right down the road, after the initial welcome home didn't see him much after that, shameful. He has since passed.

We have a member in our youth group with a disability. Finding myself in a situation of having to get over myself was very humbling. I have never seen anyone with more joy and zeal for life. Truly a life changing experience for me.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077269 - 12/07/17 08:15 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
When we got married, my wife was a Physical Therapist specializing in infants 0-3 with disabilities. Was beyond my comprehension. Then my son was born with Spina Bifida and it became real. Started interacting with other families and learned a lot.

Biggest lesson for me was looking past the physical disability or deformity, and seeing the inner value and abilities. These kids are amazing, if they are given the chance and the tools, and you can overcome your own personal preferences and biases.

I could tell story after story of kid after kid, but I won't. I'll tell you two: Little guy was born with cord wrapped around his hand. Cord cut off blood flow and hand never grew, and soon after birth had to be removed. Parents were distraught- how can a kid function with only one hand?

Fast forward 4 years- Kid fishes (open face reel), ties his own shoes, dresses himself, throws and catches ball with a glove (he's quick at getting it off an on), whatever he wants to do. Like us, parents had to learn to figure out some stuff differently than other parents.

Kid 2 (my biggest challenge)- Girl with cerebral palsy. Absolutely 0 in muscle control. Hard to understand talk. Difficult to watch her function.

One day I was left alone with her, and she began to talk. At first, I tried to ignore or just agree, until I realized that while her body did not function, her brain was 100%. She knew things I would have never expected, she remembered everything about everything.

Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart.

We need to start looking more on the heart.

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