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#6075445 - 12/05/17 03:35 PM Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man...
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
will SCOTUS decide in favor of the baker or the couple? Does the 1st Amendment hang in the balance?

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#6075514 - 12/05/17 04:45 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
adam m Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/11/14
Posts: 12566
Loc: nm
I say it hangs in the balance. Being serviced isn't a right it's a privilege. The same sex couple should've put on their big girl/boy underwear and taken their business elsewhere. But nooooo they decided to through a tantrum like a 3 yr old who can't get the candy in the store.

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#6076057 - 12/06/17 05:51 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076069 - 12/06/17 06:05 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose.
He had no problem selling them a cake he just wouldn't decorate it for a gay wedding because of his religious beliefs which are supposed to be protected by the first amendment. He also wouldn't decorate Halloween cakes,divorce celebration cakes,etc. due to his religious beliefs.

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#6076076 - 12/06/17 06:18 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
trapre Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/29/17
Posts: 94
Loc: state college, PA
Amen, God bless him.
_________________________
If a sparrow can not fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? -Benjamin franklin

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#6076079 - 12/06/17 06:24 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose.
He had no problem selling them a cake he just wouldn't decorate it for a gay wedding because of his religious beliefs which are supposed to be protected by the first amendment. He also wouldn't decorate Halloween cakes,divorce celebration cakes,etc. due to his religious beliefs.


That being the case I believe he may win. If there is no evidence of an exception decorating a cake that is against the Bible, the assumption being that's what governs his faith, he should win.


Edited by HobbieTrapper (12/06/17 06:28 AM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076131 - 12/06/17 07:32 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
It has nothing to do with faith, really. It is a question of if the government can force an artist to produce art on demand. Not sell art, make it. Of course the government should not have to force, but that is all government is. Force. Remember that.

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#6076142 - 12/06/17 07:40 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: FlyinFinn]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: FlyinFinn
It has nothing to do with faith, really. It is a question of if the government can force an artist to produce art on demand. Not sell art, make it. Of course the government should not have to force, but that is all government is. Force. Remember that.
Yep. Kinda like being forced to buy healthcare.

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#6076151 - 12/06/17 07:47 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Or being forced to hire Asians and atheists.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076154 - 12/06/17 07:50 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Bob Jameson Offline


Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: SW Pa
The courts have no business deciding what someone wants to do with regards to if they want to sell to someone or not. That is a choice of the business to determine that decision. If someone doesn't like you or what you represent they should be able to make up their own minds if they want to do business with you or not.

I have turned several people down in my lifetime who applied for work with my businesses due to knowing things about them that could have turned out to be a bad decision for me in one way or another.

All were good decisions as I learned down the road. If you are a known thief, have had a history of bad work ethic or have drug or alcohol abuse in your background you aren't being considered for employment. If something is determined that would not be in your best interest or others in your employment you certainly have the right to refuse them I don't care what the court says.

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#6076186 - 12/06/17 08:20 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
330-Trapper Offline



Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 17639
Loc: Minnesota
Baker should win...courts should have no place here.


Edited by 330-Trapper (12/06/17 08:21 AM)
_________________________
NRA and NTA Life Member






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#6076193 - 12/06/17 08:24 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 558
Loc: wyoming

[quote=HobbieTrapper]Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose. [/quote

HUH?
_________________________
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement!

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#6076212 - 12/06/17 08:34 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
danny clifton Online   content
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 9694
Loc: williamsburg ks
I'm not sure how the supremes decided the owner of business no longer had the right to only do business with those they wanted too.
_________________________
Ban the NSA

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#6076222 - 12/06/17 08:42 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
To bad we didn't have a free market economy in this country.....

If we did, the business owner would either A) lose all of his business because the market determined that his "values" were no longer saleable, B) lose some of his business from groups that chose to deal elsewhere, leaving the owner to re-evaluate his ability to maintain his business, C) see no change in his business as his clientele was the same as before, or D) gain business from the fact that the market responded favorably to his decision, reflecting the consensus of the market he serves.

Fortunately, we have a government that is active and intrusive, and makes sure that proletariat yields to the far superior intellect and will of the bourgeoisie

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#6076248 - 12/06/17 09:17 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: jwill]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: jwill

[quote=HobbieTrapper]Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose. [/quote

HUH?


The Bible states we should not be wearing garments made of different materials.


Edited by HobbieTrapper (12/06/17 09:18 AM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076255 - 12/06/17 09:26 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Fisherman Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 558
Loc: northern New York
The Bible is very clear about this. The Baker has every right to turn them away.

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#6076261 - 12/06/17 09:39 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 558
Loc: wyoming
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: jwill

[quote=HobbieTrapper]Unless the Baker can prove that he is consistent in his faith by refusing to serve people wearing garments made of 2 different materials and the like then he should lose. [/quote

HUH?


The Bible states we should not be wearing garments made of different materials.


Maybe a little study on you're part would clear up what is consistent with the Christian faith. Old covenant versus new and all.
_________________________
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement!

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#6076265 - 12/06/17 09:49 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
trapre Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/29/17
Posts: 94
Loc: state college, PA
I don't believe two members of the same sex should marry based on the Bible. Therefore if I was in the bakers place I would Not make a cake for them. I believe that we have a say in who we sell products to. So the baker should rightfully win the case.
_________________________
If a sparrow can not fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? -Benjamin franklin

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#6076279 - 12/06/17 10:06 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
rick2527 Offline
trapper

Registered: 06/17/08
Posts: 159
Loc: belknap county nh
It's all about the Colorado anti discrimination law
Taken from ACLU colorado

Colorado law prohibits discrimination in places of public accommodation based on marital status or actual or perceived sexual orientation. According to the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act (“Act”), “sexual orientation” means heterosexuality, homosexuality (lesbian or gay), bisexuality, and transgender status. Transgender status means a gender identity or gender expression that differs from societal expectations based on gender assigned at birth.
Discriminatory practices can come in many forms, including: terms of service; denial of full and equal service; intimidation; access; conditions; privileges; advertising; and retaliation.
A place of public accommodation can include locations, such as, a: bakery, florist, restaurant, hotel or motel; retail store; public transportation; recreational facility or park; and library. The Act provides a very limited exemption for places of public accommodation that are “principally used for religious purposes.” This would include a church, synagogue, or mosque, but the exemption may not apply to the cafeteria connected to a church, or a gymnasium connected to a synagogue, if those places are generally open to the public.

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#6076281 - 12/06/17 10:10 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: jwill
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper


The Bible states we should not be wearing garments made of different materials.


Maybe a little study on you're part would clear up what is consistent with the Christian faith. Old covenant versus new and all.


So we can throw away the Old Testament. Thanks I've been wanting to covet my neighbors (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) for years.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076282 - 12/06/17 10:10 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
mnsota Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 1247
Loc: minnesota
The queer couple should have moved on and bought their cake elsewhere. I suspect they targeted the baker to draw
maximum coverage to their in "your face attitude". That's consistent with that community.

I hope the baker wins.

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#6076285 - 12/06/17 10:15 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
I wonder if in CO a man enters a Jewish or Muslim deli and demands they make him a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich the shop owner would be required by law to make it?

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#6076286 - 12/06/17 10:16 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Predatorfever32 Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 152
Loc: Pennsylvania
This should have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with property rights

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#6076289 - 12/06/17 10:22 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
I suspect this wouldn't be an issue if his shop was a members only but he purchased a public business license which came with an agreement to abide by laws preventing discrimination.

As was stated earlier if his business practice is that he doesn't decorate ANY cake that is against his religious teaching, which is the why he is citing for not doing so, he should win.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

Top
#6076291 - 12/06/17 10:24 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: jwill]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
Quote:


Maybe a little study on you're part would clear up what is consistent with the Christian faith. Old covenant versus new and all.


I'll have to check, but I think Romans chapter 1 is in the New Testament (specifically vv 26-28)

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#6076294 - 12/06/17 10:26 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
I suspect this wouldn't be an issue if his shop was a members only but he purchased a public business license which came with an agreement to abide by laws preventing discrimination.

As was stated earlier if his business practice is that he doesn't decorate ANY cake that is against his religious teaching, which is the why he is citing for not doing so, he should win.

"Public business license" may be the very root of the problem, however, I doubt too many can see that far anymore.

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#6076299 - 12/06/17 10:32 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: RKG]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 558
Loc: wyoming
Originally Posted By: RKG
Quote:


Maybe a little study on you're part would clear up what is consistent with the Christian faith. Old covenant versus new and all.


I'll have to check, but I think Romans chapter 1 is in the New Testament (specifically vv 26-28)


Good grief, go back and look at the context of what I said and why I replied to hobie.
_________________________
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement!

Top
#6076313 - 12/06/17 11:09 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
trapre Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/29/17
Posts: 94
Loc: state college, PA
We should still follow the Old Testament but Christ died so the rules aren't as strict.
_________________________
If a sparrow can not fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? -Benjamin franklin

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#6076323 - 12/06/17 11:20 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
trapre Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/29/17
Posts: 94
Loc: state college, PA
we don't have to sacrifice anymore do we? no. But we have to follow the commandments? yes.
_________________________
If a sparrow can not fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? -Benjamin franklin

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#6076327 - 12/06/17 11:21 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: mnsota]
trapre Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/29/17
Posts: 94
Loc: state college, PA
Originally Posted By: mnsota
The queer couple should have moved on and bought their cake elsewhere. I suspect they targeted the baker to draw
maximum coverage to their in "your face attitude". That's consistent with that community.

I hope the baker wins.
agreed.
_________________________
If a sparrow can not fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? -Benjamin franklin

Top
#6076420 - 12/06/17 01:21 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Kart29 Online   content
trapper

Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1018
Loc: Hancock Co., Indiana
The Old Testament included three kinds of law

Civil law for the governing of the people, administration of the courts, etc.
Ceremonial law - for the regulation of religious practice and worship
Moral law (the Ten Commandments) - to define a code of behavior for the people consistent with God's character and nature.

The civil law is obsolete because the Hebrew national government with God as the head of state no longer exists.
The ceremonial law was made irrelevant when Jesus said "This is the New Covenant of my blood"
The moral law (the Ten Commandments) is still effective and unchanged as God's nature is unchanged.

The requirements not to have tattoos and not to wear garments of two kinds of fabric and not to cook a kid goat in its mothers milk were part of the ceremonial law which is informative but not applicable at this time.


I think the problem is with a state law preventing discrimination based on sexual orientation. Eliminate that rotten law and the problem goes away.
_________________________
Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see. Hail the incarnate Deity. Pleased, as man, with men to dwell; Jesus, our Emmanuel.

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#6076431 - 12/06/17 01:40 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: adam m]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 2850
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: adam m
I say it hangs in the balance. Being serviced isn't a right it's a privilege. The same sex couple should've put on their big girl/boy underwear and taken their business elsewhere. But nooooo they decided to through a tantrum like a 3 yr old who can't get the candy in the store.


Ok, I disagree 100% with this....


Change the "gay couple" with other examples to see if it passes the test...

Is it ok if the cake people said
"we don't bake cake for Injuns"??
"we don't serve black people here"
"we don't serve Jews here"
"we don't serve Whites here"
"we don't serve divorced people here"
"we don't serve republicans here"

Because you don't agree with someones sexual orientation doesn't make it ok to discriminate against them....

And as far as your line about the tantrum, the bible bangers threw just as big of a tantrum......
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Malukchuk
I'll take wolves over idiots any day.

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#6076454 - 12/06/17 01:56 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: mnsota]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 2850
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: mnsota
The queer couple should have moved on and bought their cake elsewhere. I suspect they targeted the baker to draw
maximum coverage to their in "your face attitude". That's consistent with that community.


Its also consistent in the bible banger community to throw back they don't bake cakes for gays...


The only reason this case is here, is because the baker is a friggin idiot...

"sorry I don't bake cakes for queers"..... all high and mighty.....

meanwhile, if he had said "im sorry, based on the cake you want and the timeline and my current orders, I don't have the availability to make you a cake."



baker should lose for being an idiot...and openly discriminating.....
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Malukchuk
I'll take wolves over idiots any day.

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#6076455 - 12/06/17 01:57 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
Hupurest I believe you are seeing this a civil rights case when actually it is a first amendment case dealing with freedom of religion. The baker offered to sell them any cake in his shop he was just unwilling to decorate it. He did the same with people wanting him to decorate a divorce celebration cake, Halloween cake, etc. Those folks respected his decision but the gay couple not so much. It is my belief that this is an attack upon Christianity and not a case of a civil liberties. Just another case of militant atheist/activist IMO. Wonder if this gay couple or any gay couple has found a Muslim baker to bake them a gay marriage cake?

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#6076484 - 12/06/17 02:39 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
I have no doubt a sizzling contest was started because of distain for conviction. Both participants will suffer because of it.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076491 - 12/06/17 02:58 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Hupurest]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5676
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Originally Posted By: adam m
I say it hangs in the balance. Being serviced isn't a right it's a privilege. The same sex couple should've put on their big girl/boy underwear and taken their business elsewhere. But nooooo they decided to through a tantrum like a 3 yr old who can't get the candy in the store.


Ok, I disagree 100% with this....


Change the "gay couple" with other examples to see if it passes the test...

Is it ok if the cake people said
"we don't bake cake for Injuns"??
"we don't serve black people here"
"we don't serve Jews here"
"we don't serve Whites here"
"we don't serve divorced people here"
"we don't serve republicans here"

Because you don't agree with someones sexual orientation doesn't make it ok to discriminate against them....

And as far as your line about the tantrum, the bible bangers threw just as big of a tantrum......


Your first four examples are of racial discrimination and would be illegal, as they should be.

If a business owner had a religious objection to serving divorced folks (or gay folks), it might be stupid but I see no grounds for it to be illegal. If he had a political objection to serving Republicans, it might be stupid (could cost him half his customer base) but, again, I see no grounds for it to be illegal.

It's not illegal or considered discrimination to refuse service to a shirtless or barefoot person is it? Why not?
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6076500 - 12/06/17 03:16 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Lugnut]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Lugnut


It's not illegal or considered discrimination to refuse service to a shirtless or barefoot person is it? Why not?


It is discrimination if your reason for doing so is something other than the safety and welfare of your patrons.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

Top
#6076506 - 12/06/17 03:20 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Lugnut]
Woodsloafer72 Offline
trapper

Registered: 06/22/15
Posts: 496
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Lugnut


It's not illegal or considered discrimination to refuse service to a shirtless or barefoot person is it? Why not?


When I se those no shoes, no shirt, no service signs I always wonder what would be said about no pants! laugh

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#6076510 - 12/06/17 03:26 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5676
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: Lugnut


It's not illegal or considered discrimination to refuse service to a shirtless or barefoot person is it? Why not?


It is discrimination if your reason for doing so is something other than the safety and welfare of your patrons.


So if a shop owner had a moral objection to shirtless people and refused to serve them based on that, it would be discrimination, but would it be illegal?
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6076517 - 12/06/17 03:35 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
If I find a bakery ran by an openly gay baker and ask him to bake me a cake decorated with the words, "Homosexuality is an abomination and all gays will burn in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman)!" and the baker refuses to do so, does he violate my civil liberties?

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#6076518 - 12/06/17 03:36 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Predatorfever32 Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 152
Loc: Pennsylvania
The business is his property he can serve whoever he wants.

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#6076520 - 12/06/17 03:37 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
adam m Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/11/14
Posts: 12566
Loc: nm
X2 J.Staton.
Hupurest, his not an idiot for following his convictions. Service from a private establishment is a privilege. They should've taken their business elsewhere just like many on here who refuse to give business to businesses who don’t allow ccw or support peta/ humane society. Yes both through tantrums but who made it that way? The gay couple. The baker has been forced to defend his faith in the media. The baker has received death threats and other forms of harassment and has lost 40% off business all because these "men" couldn't tolerate his beliefs. They should've taken their business to a Muslims bakery. Don't forget private businesses have won the right to not cover birth control especially the plan b type of rx's because of their religious beliefs.

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#6076525 - 12/06/17 03:45 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: adam m]
Hupurest Offline
"Andy S wannabe"

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 2850
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: adam m
X2 J.Staton.
Hupurest, his not an idiot for following his convictions. Service from a private establishment is a privilege. They should've taken their business elsewhere just like many on here who refuse to give business to businesses who don’t allow ccw or support peta/ humane society. Yes both through tantrums but who made it that way? The gay couple. The baker has been forced to defend his faith in the media. The baker has received death threats and other forms of harassment and has lost 40% off business all because these "men" couldn't tolerate his beliefs. They should've taken their business to a Muslims bakery. Don't forget private businesses have won the right to not cover birth control especially the plan b type of rx's because of their religious beliefs.


1. no I don't think hes an idiot for following his convictions... hes an idiot for not dealing with it in a better manner.. "sorry, we are booked and I don't have an opening to bake you a cake." instead he says "I love jesus, I don't bake for no queers."

alright, for the sake of argument..

This establishment doesn't serve Native Americans... that's the owners conviction.... thoughts?


the man lost 40% of his business, because he made a poor business decision.. that's his fault..must be 40% of his business has convictions and wont shop there anymore and support a bigot.

and the church guy couldn't tolerate their gay beliefs... its not a one way street here...


what happened to not judging, loving thy neighbor, treating all men as created equal?



Im looking for someone that wants to wager $20 on the outcome.

I say Baker loses...

at the outcome of the case, loser of the bet, makes a post saying the winner is smarter and better looking then them, and makes a$20 donation to the Tman discretionary fund.


Edited by Hupurest (12/06/17 03:46 PM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Malukchuk
I'll take wolves over idiots any day.

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#6076528 - 12/06/17 03:51 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
If I find a bakery ran by an openly gay baker and ask him to bake me a cake decorated with the words, "Homosexuality is an abomination and all gays will burn in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman)!" and the baker refuses to do so, does he violate my civil liberties?


If he can't prove his practice is to not decorate cakes with offensive material, yes.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076537 - 12/06/17 03:58 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Hupurest]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Originally Posted By: adam m
X2 J.Staton.
Hupurest, his not an idiot for following his convictions. Service from a private establishment is a privilege. They should've taken their business elsewhere just like many on here who refuse to give business to businesses who don’t allow ccw or support peta/ humane society. Yes both through tantrums but who made it that way? The gay couple. The baker has been forced to defend his faith in the media. The baker has received death threats and other forms of harassment and has lost 40% off business all because these "men" couldn't tolerate his beliefs. They should've taken their business to a Muslims bakery. Don't forget private businesses have won the right to not cover birth control especially the plan b type of rx's because of their religious beliefs.


1. no I don't think hes an idiot for following his convictions... hes an idiot for not dealing with it in a better manner.. "sorry, we are booked and I don't have an opening to bake you a cake." instead he says "I love jesus, I don't bake for no queers."

alright, for the sake of argument..

This establishment doesn't serve Native Americans... that's the owners conviction.... thoughts?


the man lost 40% of his business, because he made a poor business decision.. that's his fault..must be 40% of his business has convictions and wont shop there anymore and support a bigot.

and the church guy couldn't tolerate their gay beliefs... its not a one way street here...


what happened to not judging, loving thy neighbor, treating all men as created equal?



Im looking for someone that wants to wager $20 on the outcome.

I say Baker loses...

at the outcome of the case, loser of the bet, makes a post saying the winner is smarter and better looking then them, and makes a$20 donation to the Tman discretionary fund.


It's going to come down to the smallest detail which is his consistent practice of not decorating Halloween cakes and similar things that have established following his faith.

I'd bet you but nobody is better looking than I am. lol
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076540 - 12/06/17 04:09 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
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Love thy neighbor as thyself is Christ like.
To condone and celebrate what's considered a sin, not so much.
The court ruled that Americans must purchase a product or be punished, so I'm not going to bet they make the proper decision this time either.

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#6076550 - 12/06/17 04:30 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Making a cake is celebrating sin?

What was Abraham celebrating when he gave his wife to Pharoh?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076552 - 12/06/17 04:31 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Lugnut]
Kart29 Online   content
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1018
Loc: Hancock Co., Indiana
Originally Posted By: Lugnut

So if a shop owner had a moral objection to shirtless people and refused to serve them based on that, it would be discrimination, but would it be illegal?


I think you are on the right track Lugnut. Discrimination happens all the time and there is not necessarily anything wrong with it. For example, just apply for auto insurance from a preferred rate insurance company after getting your third DUI. Try getting a job with a history of embezzlement on your criminal record. Try getting the preferred rates on medical insurance if you are a tobacco user. Try getting a new car loan 6-weeks after your bankruptcy goes through. Do you think you might face discrimination? Heck yes you will and there's no law against it.

Somebody explain to me the justification for making discrimination based on sexual orientation a crime - especially when it comes to things like medical insurance coverage.

But in this particular case, the claim of discrimination based on sexual orientation is still a farce. The baker was intentionally selected for the purpose of making a political point and to advance a particular agenda.
_________________________
Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see. Hail the incarnate Deity. Pleased, as man, with men to dwell; Jesus, our Emmanuel.

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#6076565 - 12/06/17 04:39 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
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Registered: 08/11/12
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Abraham was saving his own neck. Abraham wasn't sinless.
Is a homosexual union biblical?
If you believe in the bible would you support this union with your talents?
Can a Christian be pro choice?

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#6076580 - 12/06/17 04:56 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Computer Hater Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 940
Loc: Ohio
I was asked to put a bid on a new roof for a mosque. I declined. I was "too busy". Over the years,I had many other requests to place bids on roofs that for one reason or another I didn't feel comfortable about. I either was "too busy" or I shot a rocket at it. I priced it so high that I knew I would never get it and if by some strange reason I did get it, I was going to be well paid for the inconvenience of doing a roof I didn't want to do.
_________________________
Randy
Member NTA, FTA

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#6076587 - 12/06/17 05:04 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
adam m Offline
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Registered: 02/11/14
Posts: 12566
Loc: nm
Hupurest you're right it's a civil rights vs religious rights case. However discrimination against sexual orientation and preferences are not protected under the constitution. So who violated who's rights? Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia gave an interview to the California Lawyer where he said that the Constitution does not prohibit sex discrimination against women and gays. That’s up to the legislatures, he said.

How is he a bigot? He would sell them anything else including an undecorated wedding cake.


If some business denies me because I'm native I might be offended but I'll take my business elsewhere. That's their business and their policy.

He tolerated their beliefs but followed his convictions.

Did he lovingly deny them or chew them out and toss them out by their collars? Both parties agree he told them he was sorry he could sell them a cake but not decorate it because of his religious beliefs. That's how you lovingly deny your neighbors. Jesus gave us the definition of who is our neighbor in Luke 10:25-37.

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#6076588 - 12/06/17 05:06 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Computer Hater]
J Staton Offline
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Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Computer Hater
I was asked to put a bid on a new roof for a mosque. I declined. I was "too busy". Over the years,I had many other requests to place bids on roofs that for one reason or another I didn't feel comfortable about. I either was "too busy" or I shot a rocket at it. I priced it so high that I knew I would never get it and if by some strange reason I did get it, I was going to be well paid for the inconvenience of doing a roof I didn't want to do.
That's how the baker should have handled it but he didn't. Now I guess we'll find out if the government can override your first amendment rights.

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#6076590 - 12/06/17 05:08 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
elkaholic Online   shocked
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper


What was Abraham celebrating when he gave his wife to Pharoh?


Finally getting some peace and quiet. laugh
_________________________
Millions of trees die every year to print environmentalist publications

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#6076797 - 12/06/17 07:53 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
Abraham was saving his own neck. Abraham wasn't sinless.
Is a homosexual union biblical?
If you believe in the bible would you support this union with your talents?
Can a Christian be pro choice?


Can a Christian be compassionate to the sinner so that they may see Christ living in them and leave the consequences to God?

I know,......

"He's God, He can do anything.......except make something good out of that."

That's what everybody else sees whether you intend it or not.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076803 - 12/06/17 07:58 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
J Staton Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: J Staton
Abraham was saving his own neck. Abraham wasn't sinless.
Is a homosexual union biblical?
If you believe in the bible would you support this union with your talents?
Can a Christian be pro choice?


Can a Christian be compassionate to the sinner so that they may see Christ living in them and leave the consequences to God?

I know,......

"He's God, He can do anything.......except make something good out of that."

That's what everybody else sees whether you intend it or not.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. That's what I'm talking about. Christ would have been compassionate to the homosexual couple but he wouldn't have blessed/endorsed the union/sin.

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#6076804 - 12/06/17 07:59 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
adam m Offline
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Registered: 02/11/14
Posts: 12566
Loc: nm
Abraham didn't celebrate when they lied to pharaoh, rather pharaoh gave him livestock and servants and Abraham prospered while Pharaoh was plagued and let Abraham live and sent them on their way as a wealthy man.

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#6076833 - 12/06/17 08:16 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Can a Christian be compassionate to the sinner so that they may see Christ living in them and leave the consequences to God?

I know,......

"He's God, He can do anything.......except make something good out of that."

That's what everybody else sees whether you intend it or not.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. That's what I'm talking about. Christ would have been compassionate to the homosexual couple but he wouldn't have blessed/endorsed the union/sin.


Again, please tell me how baking a cake is blessing sin.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076837 - 12/06/17 08:17 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: adam m]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: adam m
Abraham didn't celebrate when they lied to pharaoh, rather pharaoh gave him livestock and servants and Abraham prospered while Pharaoh was plagued and let Abraham live and sent them on their way as a wealthy man.


So knowingly "blessing" adultery benefited the Christian?

Stop it. lol
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076847 - 12/06/17 08:24 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
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Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 2278
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If a Christian is a light unto the world and he decorates a cake celebrating a union that according to the Bible is an abomination, what will the world think? Maybe we ought to have a weekly prayer meeting at the strip club.

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#6076849 - 12/06/17 08:25 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Osky Offline
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Registered: 12/09/13
Posts: 4567
Loc: Northern MN
So according to Hup.. And others the shop owner has to become a liar with false excuses? Really?
He politely offered anything he had already created to these people. He simply refused to contract his future artistic creative ability.
They came into HIS store. HE offered them anything he had to offer to anyone else who walked into his store. He has proven that he has denied other people his services in contract work for various personal reasons.
These people by being gay can FORCE a contract upon the storekeeper?
Seems to me the baker more than fulfilled his obligation to his state license.
Osky
_________________________
"A womans heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth, and I can find no sign on it"

www.SureDockusa.com

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#6076859 - 12/06/17 08:30 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
If a Christian is a light unto the world and he decorates a cake celebrating a union that according to the Bible is an abomination, what will the world think? Maybe we ought to have a weekly prayer meeting at the strip club.


I'm betting 10 people at most would have known he bake a cake for those guys.

You even admitted that they only went there to stir the pot. If he had made the cake you think they would have said, "Oh (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) no, you're a Christian and we ain't leaving until you refuse to bake a cake for us!"

lol.....Good stuff.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076881 - 12/06/17 08:42 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
J Staton Offline
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Registered: 08/11/12
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What if those ten people had an understanding of sin according to the Bible, yet were not saved? Do they see his action as hypocritical and scoff at Christianity?

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#6076888 - 12/06/17 08:45 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
Bruce T Offline
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Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 24510
Loc: Northern Maine
God would have known
_________________________
2017 goals:
100 muskrats-114 muskrats
10 mink-1 mink
2 otter
1 bobcat

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#6076916 - 12/06/17 09:04 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: J Staton
What if those ten people had an understanding of sin according to the Bible, yet were not saved? Do they see his action as hypocritical and scoff at Christianity?


How many are thinking that with the whole "love your neighbor as yourself" after he made a spectacle out of it?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6076918 - 12/06/17 09:06 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Bruce T]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
God would have known


He sure did.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077035 - 12/06/17 11:23 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Kart29]
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 7314
Loc: Oakland, MS
Originally Posted By: Kart29


I think you are on the right track Lugnut. Discrimination happens all the time and there is not necessarily anything wrong with it. For example, just apply for auto insurance from a preferred rate insurance company after getting your third DUI. Try getting a job with a history of embezzlement on your criminal record. Try getting the preferred rates on medical insurance if you are a tobacco user. Try getting a new car loan 6-weeks after your bankruptcy goes through. Do you think you might face discrimination? Heck yes you will and there's no law against it.



THIS. Discrimination happens every day. Smoking cigarettes is a choice, one that is legal. But you will pay out your ears for health insurance, when someone else the exact same age, of the same health, will pay less than half of what you do. How is that not discrimination? Because it's a choice?

No matter what anyone, anywhere says, homosexuality IS a choice. People say "they were born like that". I don't believe that, but let's just assume that IS true. Well hundreds of thousands of people have also been born heterosexual that then CHOSE to remain abstinent due to religious beliefs... so even if you ARE born only desiring the same sex, it's obviously possible to not ACT on those feelings, as so many others have done.

I can choose whether to smoke a cigarette, drink and then drive, or sleep with someone, regardless of their sex. Choices.

Some things you don't have a choice about. Your race. Your gender. Your age. That is what discrimination needs to be about... things you cannot control.

And if anyone makes the argument that homosexuals just "cannot help themselves, they're born that way, they can't change it".... then the same would NEED to be said for those that were "born" only attracted to goats, or 5 year old girls.

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#6077068 - 12/07/17 04:36 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: yotetrapper30]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: yotetrapper30

THIS. Discrimination happens every day. Smoking cigarettes is a choice, one that is legal. But you will pay out your ears for health insurance, when someone else the exact same age, of the same health, will pay less than half of what you do. How is that not discrimination? Because it's a choice?

No matter what anyone, anywhere says, homosexuality IS a choice. People say "they were born like that". I don't believe that, but let's just assume that IS true. Well hundreds of thousands of people have also been born heterosexual that then CHOSE to remain abstinent due to religious beliefs... so even if you ARE born only desiring the same sex, it's obviously possible to not ACT on those feelings, as so many others have done.

I can choose whether to smoke a cigarette, drink and then drive, or sleep with someone, regardless of their sex. Choices.

Some things you don't have a choice about. Your race. Your gender. Your age. That is what discrimination needs to be about... things you cannot control.

And if anyone makes the argument that homosexuals just "cannot help themselves, they're born that way, they can't change it".... then the same would NEED to be said for those that were "born" only attracted to goats, or 5 year old girls.


Sounds like you would be ok with "hey, come back after you get rid of those tattoos."

Employment is a whole different animal than public service. Yes there are examples of discrimination in the service industry, age discrimination is one that comes readily to mind however, the reasoning behind it is safety and welfare of the individual and others whether insurance regulated or government. I'm not saying it's necessary, it's just what society has deemed "agreeable". That little disclaimer is for those who feel "survival of the fittest and natural selection is the only true freedom." You know who you are, no need to place a booger here.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077072 - 12/07/17 04:43 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077073 - 12/07/17 04:46 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
micheal Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 1748
Loc: Saginaw, Mi
A person should be able to decide weather to serve someone or not.

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#6077097 - 12/07/17 05:18 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5676
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Sounds like you would be ok with "hey, come back after you get rid of those tattoos."

Employment is a whole different animal than public service.


Owning a business is not public service. As a business owner, if I choose not to remodel a kitchen for someone because I don't like his/her tattoos, it should be my choice.

I should not be punished by the government and forced to work for anyone I choose not to as long as my objections are legal e.g., the guy has a reputation for stiffing contractors, I don't like his white power tattoos or maybe the guy is just an annoying jackwad and I don't want to spend a couple of months in his house building an addition.

In my opinion, the baker's religious objection to decorating a cake in a manner promoting homosexuality was not illegal discrimination.
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6077145 - 12/07/17 06:12 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
And we are waiting on the courts decision.

If you have a business and a business license then you most certainly are "serving the public." I'm not talking government vs private sector in the employment capacity. My mistake for not making that clear. I forget how emotions cloud the view sometimes.

For the record, it is true anyone can serve or not serve the rub is in the reason given for not serving as Hup pointed out.

People don't get jobs because of being "under qualified or over qualified" all the time. That brush is pretty broad. When you open your mouth and "pin striping" comes out then it's an issue.


Edited by HobbieTrapper (12/07/17 06:13 AM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077150 - 12/07/17 06:14 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?


Nobody???
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077157 - 12/07/17 06:21 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: Hupurest]
Lugnut Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5676
Loc: SEPA
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Im looking for someone that wants to wager $20 on the outcome.

I say Baker loses...

at the outcome of the case, loser of the bet, makes a post saying the winner is smarter and better looking then them, and makes a$20 donation to the Tman discretionary fund.


I'd love to take that bet but it looks like is a four-four split and Kennedy is going to be the justice to make the decision. He has a history of deciding in favor of gay rights but is also a champion of the First Amendment...

Spot me two justices?
_________________________
Eh...wot?

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#6077183 - 12/07/17 06:58 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
Discrimination takes place every day, and the publicity of it all depends upon how it was handled, and how either of the parties wish to "air their grievances".

Case in point:

My son is in his 2nd year of college, majoring in Business Administration- Human Resources. He is currently doing Junior level, core studies. Right now he is in the top 15% of his class. He is on track to graduate early, with either a double minor included, or possibly a double major.

During his breaks, he tries to find temporary employment to help pay his college costs. The kicker? He's paralyzed from the waist down. No one will hire a kid in a wheelchair.

Here are some snippets from his last interview:

So I guess you can't stock the top shelves, huh?
We would have to modify the cash register so you could work there.....
A lot of our aisles are pretty tight, not sure you would fit down them....
If you had to lift 50 lbs off of the ground and carry to a customer's car, how would you do that?

We could call ADA and really make a stink. But why bother? This is typical in the workplace and we don't have an axe to grind. BUT, we do find a lot of businesses that we will no longer do business with, AND we make sure family and friends are aware of the situation, and let them make their own determination as well.

It's all about making waves and getting recognition. Too much victim mentality in this country. You can't legislate that away.


Edited by RKG (12/07/17 07:05 AM)

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#6077188 - 12/07/17 07:05 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
You don't feel doing nothing is a disservice to the altered abilities community?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077201 - 12/07/17 07:17 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
We've fought the public school system (ended up homeschooling), fought with establishments (private and public), we Fight currently with insurance, with financial aid, with social security, with handicap parking... you name it. Been doing it for 20 years.

Have to pick and choose which fights to fights and which ones we just can't. Every family that is in a similar situation as ours, is in the same boat, (and yes, we are very well connected with the disabled community).

Most people have no clue what disabled physically, but able mentally and ability, go through.

Not going to take it to the Supreme Court. Don't have the money, don't have the time, don't want the notoriety. Just want to give my son whatever opportunity I can.

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#6077212 - 12/07/17 07:25 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: RKG]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: RKG
We've fought the public school system (ended up homeschooling), fought with establishments (private and public), we Fight currently with insurance, with financial aid, with social security, with handicap parking... you name it. Been doing it for 20 years.

Have to pick and choose which fights to fights and which ones we just can't. Every family that is in a similar situation as ours, is in the same boat, (and yes, we are very well connected with the disabled community).

Most people have no clue what disabled physically, but able mentally and ability, go through.

Not going to take it to the Supreme Court. Don't have the money, don't have the time, don't want the notoriety. Just want to give my son whatever opportunity I can.


Your story is one of the few times I wish I was a lawyer.

God bless you and your family.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077218 - 12/07/17 07:31 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
You don't feel doing nothing is a disservice to the altered abilities community?


As long as I'm fired up (currently fighting another fight on his behalf as I type this...), like me give you another form of discrimination he has experienced and no one seems to realize it.

We sometimes attend trapping shows or fur sales, whatever. He rolls up in his wheelchair and you can see the looks. I know what they're thinking, cause soon some are saying it outloud.

He asks a question to a presenter or seller, and they start to give him the answer in almost a childish way. Let they think he wants to be a big time trapper, but that wheelchair.......

Guess what? That kid can out trap, out skin, out flesh, out fish, out hunt almost everyone that I know (Speed goat @ 500 yards in a 15 mph crosswind after a 1 hour stalk where he pushed that chair through the prairie for over half a mile. Bang flopped it.). When the occasional person comes to me and starts with the "Wow, sorry about your son.." speech, I tell them, "Don't let the wheelchair fool you. That kid can do whatever he puts his mind to. Just get out of his way, give him the tools he needs, and let him do it."

We dropped off furs at a sale once, and the guy said, "You two make a good team.". I replied, "These are all my son's pelts." He looked at my son and began to chuckle, like I had made a joke. When he saw I was serious, he changed expression in a hurry.

Easy to judge the baker in this situation, but we all do it. Just some of us don't do it as public or have a scene made about it.



Edited by RKG (12/07/17 07:36 AM)

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#6077249 - 12/07/17 08:00 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Judging the situation not the individual.

I must confess, I was very uncomfortable around individuals with disabilities. A childhood friend injured in a farming accident lived right down the road, after the initial welcome home didn't see him much after that, shameful. He has since passed.

We have a member in our youth group with a disability. Finding myself in a situation of having to get over myself was very humbling. I have never seen anyone with more joy and zeal for life. Truly a life changing experience for me.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077269 - 12/07/17 08:15 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
RKG Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/16
Posts: 162
Loc: PA
When we got married, my wife was a Physical Therapist specializing in infants 0-3 with disabilities. Was beyond my comprehension. Then my son was born with Spina Bifida and it became real. Started interacting with other families and learned a lot.

Biggest lesson for me was looking past the physical disability or deformity, and seeing the inner value and abilities. These kids are amazing, if they are given the chance and the tools, and you can overcome your own personal preferences and biases.

I could tell story after story of kid after kid, but I won't. I'll tell you two: Little guy was born with cord wrapped around his hand. Cord cut off blood flow and hand never grew, and soon after birth had to be removed. Parents were distraught- how can a kid function with only one hand?

Fast forward 4 years- Kid fishes (open face reel), ties his own shoes, dresses himself, throws and catches ball with a glove (he's quick at getting it off an on), whatever he wants to do. Like us, parents had to learn to figure out some stuff differently than other parents.

Kid 2 (my biggest challenge)- Girl with cerebral palsy. Absolutely 0 in muscle control. Hard to understand talk. Difficult to watch her function.

One day I was left alone with her, and she began to talk. At first, I tried to ignore or just agree, until I realized that while her body did not function, her brain was 100%. She knew things I would have never expected, she remembered everything about everything.

Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart.

We need to start looking more on the heart.

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#6077275 - 12/07/17 08:23 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Amen.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077294 - 12/07/17 08:36 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: HobbieTrapper]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?

Hobbie there is currently a thread about jury duty. Didn't you read it? Jury Nullification is excercising the jurors ability to judge the law as well as the evidence. Whether the decision to ignore evidence is run through a religious filter or not, it is completely legal for jurists to do.

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#6077312 - 12/07/17 08:51 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: FlyinFinn]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: FlyinFinn
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Not to get off track here but I'd like to get some of your thoughts on a juror exercising their religious freedom in the jury box. Would it be ok to dismiss evidence if it was in conflict with their belief?

Hobbie there is currently a thread about jury duty. Didn't you read it? Jury Nullification is excercising the jurors ability to judge the law as well as the evidence. Whether the decision to ignore evidence is run through a religious filter or not, it is completely legal for jurists to do.


Ok.

I'm not going to pretend that if a "used car salesman" convinced 11 other people to ignore evidence that would prove my innocence because he doesn't believe I should have a neck tattoo is going to make me happy.....especially if he announces that reason.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077355 - 12/07/17 09:28 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
Your happiness has nothing to do with it.

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#6077394 - 12/07/17 10:09 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: FlyinFinn]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: FlyinFinn
Your happiness has nothing to do with it.


Apparently neither does the truth.
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077410 - 12/07/17 10:20 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
Now you're catching on.

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#6077497 - 12/07/17 11:32 AM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
I don't get it....?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077552 - 12/07/17 12:26 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
FlyinFinn Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 8045
Loc: MN
The truth doesn't have to have anything to do with a jury trial. Take for instance a drug posession charge. The truth may be that the defendant did possess drugs, but the jurists don't believe the law is just and do not convict the defendant.

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#6077577 - 12/07/17 12:44 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: FlyinFinn]
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 9840
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: FlyinFinn
The truth doesn't have to have anything to do with a jury trial. Take for instance a drug posession charge. The truth may be that the defendant did possess drugs, but the jurists don't believe the law is just and do not convict the defendant.


But what if they bake a cake?
_________________________
"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-

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#6077805 - 12/07/17 04:58 PM Re: Patty Cake Patty Cake Baker Man... [Re: J Staton]
bad karma Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3213
Loc: Eastern Shore of Maryland
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"
_________________________
Never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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