I just found the PBS American Experience on Ruby Ridge.

It's just starting...anyone else ever see this episode?

Read the guys book that he wrote with his daughter....they contradicted themselves multiple times in the book.

I watched it live. When that tank barrel went into the building it erupted immediately into flames. They have changed the video. I believe phosphorus was used.

Was thinking Waco, sorry

Details please.

It's interesting watching this. I remember this well as a kid. Most guys my age have no idea this happened.

Watched a few months ago, was rea)y interesting as it pointed out a number of things I never knew. Well worth watching again!

I don't know if I can finish this....

Their stories of the last part of the siege were different. I never had any respect for the man from day one, but lost any chance for it right in the beginning of the book when he sent his son and that other boy to check the area where the dog was barking while he went in the opposite direction. He was supposed to be an elite soldier, doesn't take much sense to know the danger would be wherever the dog was.....then later when he made the daughter crawl through her mothers blood to get him water because he was to scared to do it himself really showed what he was made of.......if you want a fight...fine have at it, but keep your family out of it. He could have easily sent them to safety, but the coward chose not too......

I doubt I could ever find it in me to admire or think highly of Randy Weaver.

But any agent of the U.S. gov't who is OK with shooting an unarmed woman with a 10 month old baby in her arms is beyond despicable.

Whoever made the call to OK those ROE should've been twisting at the end of a rope.

Mike

X2

Wasn't it mostly over barrels cut 1/2" under legal length?

In any case, it was just another BATF boondoggle.

It was something ridiculously stupid enough to not warrant the body count.

And after it was all said and done the only thing they stuck Weaver with was a failure to appear, or some low-rent charge like that.

Mike

Was there anything about the LE agents calling out each morning/day during the several day standoff “Vickie, breakfast is ready” something along those lines??? Supposedly knowing full well Vickie had been shot and was dead. I read something about that, was that covered in the video???

Yes, they did talk about that and how it probably made things worse but that they didn't know Vickie was dead.

Makes you wonder that in today's climate if we would all blame the victims for their deaths for failure to comply.

they didn't know she was dead? wonder if they knew what planet they were on?

atf said weaver sold an illegally cut down shotgun to an undercover agent. it turns out the shotgun was of a legal length and he had not broken any laws. wonder what would happen if a black racist family were treated in such a fashion?

That whole part of the story depends on who you believe. The sniper said the curtain over the door was closed and he couldnt see the woman, he said he was shooting at Randy who had just emptied his rifle at a helicopter, ( this is when Randy was hit in the arm) of course Weaver says the curtain was open. We will never know for sure, but I seriously doubt Weavers story. I dont agree with some of the federal governments nonsense especially in these situations, but that guy was pushing for a fight. My mom lived in that neck of the woods during that time and he was known as a trouble maker.

reckon you would bet on the government being truthful!
RR

no I wouldnt, but when the two Weavers stories are different I certainly dont trust them either. No way any real man would have put his family in the situation that POS did.

The account I read stated that Weaver was shot in the back as he was unlocking the shed where his son's body was. The sniper stated he was aiming for his spine but Weaver moved at the last second

And Vicki was shot as they were running back to the house after Randy had been hit in the back... So the sniper attempted a Hail Mary shot to finish the job and hit Vicki who was unseen... So in fairness Vicki Weaver was not the intended target...

However, if any one of us took a wild shot and killed a woman holding a baby we would be crucified. But according to the ROE he was good since shooting those folks on sight, armed or not, was kosher.

Again, whoever OK'ed those ROE should've been prosecuted.

This just reinforces the notion that the U.S. government is willing to burn down the barn to get rid of the mice.

Mike

Think it was Janet Reno who authorized those ROE ? And I agree it was wrong.

Not quite Mike.

You are confusing the daughter with the mother.

The daughter, Sara, was with Randy when the sniper shot him in the back. She ran towards the house and as she ( Sara) got close the mom...Vicki...opened the door. She was holding Sara's infant sister. Horiuchi at that point, shot Vicki in the head.

It Matters Little Who authorized the killing. These agents are supposedly college graduates, trained law enforcement officers and at least human with some command of common sense. They were the ones who ultimately decided how it would go down. They were filled with the feeling of supreme power given to them as government agents and allowed that feeling to cloud their judgement. It ended badly and I doubt very much was learned, overall. I am willing to bet if agents believe today you cut your shotgun down by 1/8" under an arbitrary measurement, would have no qualms about killing you, and your family in order that you be ultimately brought to justice at a time of their choosing. The real body responsible is our legislature, who write laws pertaining to arcane and mundane things and charge these agents-in multiple agencies through our land- with the enforcement of them. All while shielding them from any threat of prosecution when situations like RR occur.

No doubt the Govt. overreacted but Mr.Weaver could have surrendered or sent his family away. He was hit in the arm Ken, not the back.

On August 22, Lon Horiuchi, an FBI sniper hiding about 200 yards (183 metres) from the cabin at Ruby Ridge, opened fire when he believed Weaver and Harris were preparing to shoot at an FBI helicopter. The first shot hit Randy Weaver in the arm. Horiuchi fired a second shot, meant for Harris, as the men ran back into the cabin. The bullet struck Vicki Weaver in the face while she held her infant daughter behind the front door of the cabin and also injured Harris. Vicki Weaver died soon after, but her body remained in the cabin for 11 days.

One thing is for sure, and it's well known........................
You get into a shooting match with police, Feds or local yokals they ain't going away and your best chioce is to drop your weapons and fight them in court.

Yep, i agree hippie, i think that was what the guy in Mich. was gona do ,but they got the straight jacket on him first lol.

Was Reno appointed during Bush?

In your dreams maybe.

No, I meant exactly what you said... I just didn't type it clearly enough to get it across. Lol

Mike

If you believe Horiuchi's statement I have some ocean front property here in Minnesota to sell. White sand beach and palm trees.

Weavers account in his own book was the same, only thing they differed on was the curtain on the door being open / closed.

Lon Horiuchi's Own After-Action Report Of The Head-Shooting Of Vicki Weaver Obtained By Defense Team Lawyer Gerry Spence include Horiuchi's Sketches Of The Door, Curtains, and A Human Head Visable In The Door Window.

Pretty Damning Evidence Pointing To A Foolhardy, Reckless, Action By A Blood-Thirsty, Jack-Booted Federal Thug Out For Payback & Revenge For HRT Agent Bill Deegan's Death.

w

Anybody That Wants To Read A Great Re-Telling Of the Ruby Ridge Fiasco as Viewed By The Randy Weaver & Kevin Harris's Defense Team Account Of the Incident Should Read:

"Every Knee Shall Bow" By Jess Walter.

Great Read and Absent The Biased Media & Federal Government Accounts Of This Tragedy.

w

I don't mind blaming the Feds when they go to far, and they did in this case, no doubt. What bothers me is that some seem to want to make Randy Weaver out to be a hero that rightfully stood up to the Federal Govt. No he didnt. He is/was nothing but a coward. The real tragedy is that he got members of his own family killed. He broke the law. Regardless of how you feel about the law the fact is he broke it. He could have easily sent his family to safety, then fought with everything he had, or just simply turned himself in. He chose to use his family like a shield.....disgusting human being as far as Im concerned....

Reno was the real piece of S,,, Weaver was setup IMO and his family was murdered . They knew exactly what they were doing and who they were shooting

I agree that Reno sucked but....she wasn't the AG until a year later....

https://youtu.be/yK2oWlqaSZ8

This song is the basis of my understanding of the Ruby Ridge incident. LOL

Cody canada is a heck of a performer- but the Braun brothers are from Idaho, and around the age of weavers oldest daughter- just a few years older. The scenes that unfolded on that ridge hit close to home with them. They are a great group of guys to sit around the fire with after a show, every one of the Brauns are excellent musicians.

Tweed is right the BS investigation that led to the siege started under Ronald Reagan's presidency. The siege and subsequent deaths were under George Bush Senior's term William Barr was the Attorney General at the time of the siege.

The underlying issue is that even with all the NRA dues payed and Republicans elected, if you cut off the end of your shotgun barrel under an arbitrary measurement the government will A) send you to prison or b) kill you. There are no shortage of agents who willingly enforce this law and a multitude of other utterly ridiculous laws.

Whether people will admit it or not....the GOP and the DNC are the same thing with different names to give the illusion of choice.

They both want to subjugated and will use the current system mercilessly.

Other than when it comes to guns and hunting/trapping.
Make no mistake, Democrats are our enemy.

...and Republicans are just friendly enough to keep us subjugated, and sendin those re-election funds in.

Some maybe even a majority of Dems probably are against hunting but from what I've seen they're not far off from many in the GOP wich is...they couldn't care less.

Heck...even locally ultra liberal Tammy Baldwin supports delisting the wolf and giving management to the state where as Ron John hasn't done a thing...

Show me a better system, or party.

FBI Went To Gatherings of Militia/Survivalist Types And Collected License Plate Numbers Of Which One Was Randy Weaver's.

FBI Sent Out Undercover Informants Out To Associate With, Entrap, & Coerce Persons Known To Associate with These Groups To Try And Get Plants/Moles Undercover Informants Inside To Penetrate These Supposedly Dangerous Groups.

Randy Was Approached By One Of These Informants Wearing A Wire who Offered To Pay Randy Big Money For Shot Guns.

Weaver, Being In Bad Financial Straits And Was Desperate For Money To Support His Home & Family, So He Agreed To Sell Some To The Wired Informant.
.
The Wired Informant Told Weaver He Needed The Barrels Cut Down Some, And Showed Weaver Where To Cut The Barrel Length Down To, Indicating by Pointing His Finger Where He wanted them Cut Off.

Weaver Did as Instructed, Sold The Guns, and Then Was Later Arrested On Illegal Weapons Charges, Told Charges Would Be Dropped/adjusted If He Cooperated as An Informant.

It Is Undisputed That Weaver Was Later Aquitted of His Original Charges Of Possession & Sale Of Illegal Firearms By An Idaho Jury Of His Peers Due To Entrapment By Federal Informants On The FBI Payroll.

So This was really Just Like Another Fast & Furious Operation That Blew Up In the Fed's Faces.

As The Family Matriarch, Vicki Weaver Ultimately Made the Decision That Randy NOT APPEAR In Court To Answer The Weapons Charges from Which The "Failure to Appear" Charges Stemmed Which Was What Sent In The HRT Hit Squad and Caused It's Disasterous Results.

Randy May have Been A Squirrely, Right Wing, Paranoid, Religious Zealot, From The So-called Christian Identity Movement, But He certainly wasn't worthy of a FBI HRT Hit-Squad Invading His Property, Shooting His Labrador Retreiver, Shooting His 14 Year-old Son In the back as He was Running Away, and Shooting To Kill At Kevin Harris, and Then Head-Shooting Vicki Weaver Like A Ripe Melon.

Kevin Harris Fired Back At FBI Gunner Bill Deegan In Self-Defense After Being Fired Upon, and After watching 14 Year-Old Sammy Weaver Get Shot in The Back.

There Is Some Blame To Go Around On Both Sides, But The Vast Majority Can be Layed At The Feet Of The FBI.

w

You let out just how bat-crap crazy they were Walleyed.
Sending letters to the President and so on.

They just didn't pick this guys name out of a hat and say, we're gonna go frame him.

No. Don't be lazy; find one yourself. However, it may be easier to keep cutting checks to the same old creeps and keep the status qou.

Not a hat, but maybe a box!

You saying the outcome could have been different if Randy had just put his pants on that morning?

I'm not the one whining every day about our country, you are so i figured you had a better system figured out. Well, not really.

Nope,

No question The Weavers Were A Bit Out There, But That Is NOT against the Law In Our Country Nor Should It Illicit The Biased & Violent Response That Was Visited Upon Their Family

But Following a Whacky Version Of Interpreting The Bible, Being Paranoid & Mistrusting Of Federal Agents Who Entrapped You Into Committing A Firearms Violation (Proven In court), And Then Changing The Date In Court On When You Are Supposed To Appear (Also Proven In Court), And Writing A Squirrely Letter To The President Shouldn't Earn You, Your Dog, and Your Family A Violent attack By An FBI HRT Federal Death Squad Either.

Federal Duplicity and Massive Over-Reach Once Again.

And We Are Talking About The Same FBI That Is Currently In The News Today For Honesty & Integrity.

LMFAO !!!

w

Whose Saying ?

w

Not against the law, that's for sure. And not enough to kill them over, imo.

The old saying holds true, go looking for a fight, you will probably find one.

The Problem Is The Feds Often Cast A Broad Net To Come Up With As Many Informants As Possible (Like Fast & Furious) and The Law Of Unintended Consequences (OOPS) Comes Back to Bite Them Later.

Bottom Line Is Randy Weaver Was A Nobody Caught Up In FBI Game Playing Dragnet.

He And His Family Weren't Rational from A Normal, Mainstream Standpoint.

His Wife Wore The Pants and Told Him Not To Appear and Plus Appearing was Too Much Of An Overwhelming

Pyscological Obstacle He Couldn't Overcome Due To His religious Beliefs So He Just Didn't Show Up.

You Or I Would Have Lawyered Up, Appeared To Answer The Charges,

Had Our Day In Court, And Took Our Medicine, Or Maybe Even Beat The Rap.

But Weaver Wasn't Normal Or Rational and Did Not Cooperate As Expected By the Feds

So Instead, The Feds Decided To Escalate, Reached The Point Of No Return, and Ignited a Firestorm That

Engulfed Everyone Involved.

Tell me If You think The FBI, Or Later The BATF At Waco, have Learned from Their Mistakes And Changed Their Standard Operating Procedures.

Obama's And Eric Holder's FBI Operation Fast And Furious Fiasco Tells Me They Haven't Learned A Thing.

w

The Marshalls were there first if i remember correctly? (and who was killed?)
I don't feel like looking back at this again and am going from my good, but short memory :))

That's usually who the court sends to bring in scofflaws.

FBI Sent In The "Elite" Hostage Rescue Team Of Four Shooters on to Randy weaver's private property .

They Got Spotted By Striker, Sammy Weaver's Labrador, And They Ran, Striker chased Them So One Of them Shot The Dog.

Sammy Weaver Yelled "You Shot My Dog, you S.O.B". and Triggered Off An Un-aimed Burst of Fire From His Rifle, and Started Running Away.


HRT Gunner/Shooter Bill Degan Then Shot 14 Year old Sammy In The Back as He ran away,Killing Him, and at That Point Every Gunner/Shooter On the HRT Opened Up. Then Kevin Harris Shot and Killed Degan In self defense after Harris Himself Came Under Fire.

Randy weaver Never Fired a shot, Ever.

w

I do have a better system figured out. You can either find one for yourself or continue on with the status qou. It matters little to me what you do. I would put money on the bet that you'll continue to be part of the problem.

You are second post after this one quoted. Randy and Vicki are not the only ones that can see what's coming.

Walleyed , you need to re-read the book.....The US Marshalls were the first on scene ( there were 6 of them, not 4) One of the marshals killed the boy. Then the HRT was called in.

Also according to his own book, he didnt go to court because the court clerk told him he could lose title to his property. This of course wasn't true, but Randy said he didnt know that at the time.Had nothing to do with his wife. I find it hard to believe he would buy that story....he was an engineer in the military so he wasn't totally stupid. The court clerk denied saying that if I remember right.

Again Im not sticking up for the Feds, but Randy Weaver was a coward. No way he should have kept his family there. I would probably find some respect for him if he would have protected his family first, then fought them to the death if thats how he felt. But in the end he didnt even fight. He sat cowering in the corner and made his daughter crawl through her mothers blood to get him water.....thats in HIS book.

Truth be told the real story is much simpler. He got caught in a sting, didnt want to risk his neck co-operating with the police, but didnt like the idea of prison either. So maybe he thought he could get enough people would rise up that it would all go away. Thats my take on it anyway. My brother-in-law has met him a few times. I wouldnt walk across the street to see the guy. Feel sorry for the girl.

The death of his family is what makes the situation still talked about today. Had he tried to fight on his own he would have been snuffed out, been little more than a blurb in the local newspaper and another notch on Horiuchi''s rifle.

Hey Yukon,

Do You Know Curt Thompson, An Hunting Outfitter From Up Your Way ?

w

Horiuchi was involved in Waco as well. That's an interesting story on it's own.

Now...you're scaring me! Small world. Yep I've known Curt for years. We buy our hay from him. Consider him a good friend, he's a hard working guy. Sadly his wife passed away last year so Curt's had a rough go this last while.

I Know Curt From The Eastern Sportsman's Show At Harrisburg, Pa Where I Exhibited My Fishing Business For 20 Years. Hung Out With Him And My Whitetail Outfitters Dale McKinnon & Doug Percival From Alberta At The Progress Grille After The Show Every Night For Dinner. Crazy Guy And Great Outfitter.

Haven't Seen Him In Years As I Stopped Doing The Show In 2005.

Small World Indeed.

w

Walleyed,
In his testimony, Weaver stated he fired his 9mm in the air three times after the initial gunfire, to "hail Sammy and Kevin to the house/yard.
Also Degan ran across the line of fire of the two other agents of his team, while confronting Harris, and in the testimony it was stated he had bullet holes in his backpack from one of his own team members.

Didn't Know That.

Did That Evidence Of Degan Nearly Being Ventilated By His Own Fire Team In a Friendly Fire Fiasco Come Out at Trial Or Was It Supressed By The Government, and Then Later Disclosed (Extracted) During The Congressional Oversight Committee Inquiry Of The Incident.

Didn't Remember Randy Weaver Firing Any Shots But It Was Certainly Not At Any Of The Federal Perps.

Those Errant Shots By Those Federal Agents Tells Me They Went Right To Rock & Roll/Spray & Pray At

The Drop Of A Hat, and As Far As I'm Concerned, Completely Justifies Harris's Firing Back

In Self Defense.


The Fact The Weaver Group Of Kevin Harris, Sammy Weaver, And Striker the Lab Took

66.3% Casualties KIA Proves Beyond A Shadow Of A Doubt Who Shot First And Who Then Did Most Most

Of The Rest Of The Shooting.


Cold Blooded Murder, It Was.

w

TTT

Have you considered writing a letter to the President?

It's my understanding there is no statue of limitations for murder.

Heck No,

I Don't Want To Land On The Treasury Department's/Secret Service's AAA List Of Right Wing Fanatical Wackos That Qualify To Be Investigated As A Threat To The President.

w

Coward.....

You Go First, Tweed !!!

Or Perhaps You Can Convince FlyinFinn Or Danny Clifton To Fire Off A Strongly Worded Memo To President Trump On This Troubling Issue.

I. Myself, Would Prefer To Fly A Bit Lower Under The Radar.

I'll Probably Make The List Anyhow Due To the

NSA's Super Secret Data-Mining Algorithm Program To Identify Conservative,Fanatical, Right Wing,Patriot,

John Birch Society Aficionados Who Post On Government Watchdog Threads Such As This.



"Extremism In The Defense Of Liberty Is No Vice".

"Moderation In The Pursuit Of Justice Is No Virtue". -- Barry Goldwater

w

Walleyed,
Watch the link posted above of the congressional inquiry. It gives a pretty good chronological explanation of the events.Including the finding of the 9mm brass,where Weaver stated he fired the three shots after the initial gunfire, while he was in the yard.