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Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: KenaiKid] #6155800
02/12/18 05:00 PM
02/12/18 05:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
PAlltheway Offline
trapper
PAlltheway  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
Originally Posted By: KenaiKid
PA, you might find this interesting. Bonding for the full cost of reclamation is already an Alaska law. Pebble mine, being under federal regs, hasn’t even gotten to the issue of State bonding yet. Of course on a project so humongous, the size of the bond will be a point of contention itself.

http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/mining/aml/nlm...ctsinalaska.pdf

Kenai - that link is really funny, and well done. The bonding meeting picture is fantastic and that alone was worth reading the whole piece. Here in PA we have a relatively new law that allows reclamation through re-mining. The enviros opposed it, naturally, because it allowed ANY mining, and it also used capitalism to achieve environmental quality goals. But we got it, and it is used. Here in PA we are talking coal mines, and huge boney piles, banks, berms, etc. A good bit of that contains waste coal in sufficient amounts to make the litter actual fuel. Some small energy plants have been built right in the heart of abandoned mine country to take advantage of the free fuel. And slowly but surely, those old heaps and piles are getting whittled away.
AK is way ahead of most states in requiring what we call "truth in bonding," 100% cost bond. That is a beautiful thing and good policy. Taxpayers do not deserve to be saddled with close-out costs. Avoiding those costs is what made those mines "profitable" to begin with. They kept all the profit and pushed all the costs onto the taxpayers.
The way we do open pits here is super scientific. Major bonds, exacting water table monitoring. Very tight.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: white17] #6155996
02/12/18 08:41 PM
02/12/18 08:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
I worked there fifteen years ago or so, note the loader in my avatar. Quite a operation. If I had my way, I lock up Alaska and give everyone the boot in an effort to keep it as pristine as possible. But I don't get my way and you can't stop "progress".

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156026
02/12/18 09:13 PM
02/12/18 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,201
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
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waggler  Offline
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Posts: 9,201
Alaska and Washington State
^^^^^^^
If I had my way we'd lock up Maine and give everyone the boot in an effort to keep it as pristine as possible, and make it an exclusive playground for all the yuppies in the rest of the northeast.

I hope you were being factitious.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: waggler] #6156038
02/12/18 09:20 PM
02/12/18 09:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted By: waggler
^^^^^^^
If I had my way we'd lock up Maine and give everyone the boot in an effort to keep it as pristine as possible, and make it an exclusive playground for all the yuppies in the rest of the northeast.

I hope you were being factitious.


Go easy on me, I have to live with these yuppies. I was being facetious in part. How are they going to access Pebble Mine? A road, another road punched into the wilderness. You can only destroy it once and it's gone forever.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156042
02/12/18 09:23 PM
02/12/18 09:23 PM

O
Oh Snap
Unregistered
Oh Snap
Unregistered
O



Posco
Is that why you left Alaska. You wanted to lead the way in returning Alaska to pristine? LOL

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156044
02/12/18 09:24 PM
02/12/18 09:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Me and a couple of friends were sheep hunting and I commented on a particularly beautiful spot and said what a great place to build a cabin. One of them fired right back and said "What a beautiful place to not build a cabin." It stung but in retrospect I think he was right.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: ] #6156046
02/12/18 09:26 PM
02/12/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted By: Oh Snap
Posco
Is that why you left Alaska. You wanted to lead the way in returning Alaska to pristine? LOL


I knew Alaska was screwed when Home Depot showed up in Fairbanks.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156053
02/12/18 09:29 PM
02/12/18 09:29 PM

O
Oh Snap
Unregistered
Oh Snap
Unregistered
O



Gee I read that sentiment when I red about the Blue Parka Bandit back in the gold rush days!

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Posco] #6156074
02/12/18 09:53 PM
02/12/18 09:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
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KenaiKid Offline
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Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
Originally Posted By: Posco
How are they going to access Pebble Mine? A road, another road punched into the wilderness. You can only destroy it once and it's gone forever.


Probably just a gravel airstrip like the majority of the mines and oil fields in AK. Maybe a barge landing if they road to tidewater. I’m positive they’re not going to connect to the road system.

I sure wouldn’t want to be herded into a city to keep the wilderness “pristine” for some idealists. One of the beautiful things about the wilderness is the ability to live in it and harvest from it, be it fur, wood or gold.


Originally Posted by Dirt
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Boco couldn't catch a cold.

But if he did, it would be Top Lot.
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: KenaiKid] #6156122
02/12/18 10:40 PM
02/12/18 10:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,253
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted By: KenaiKid
Probably just a gravel airstrip like the majority of the mines and oil fields in AK.


I doubt that very much. The oil from Prudhoe Bay isn't brought to market by airplanes, it's brought to market by a pipeline. Pogo, Fort Knox, Healy? If you want to quantify the "majority" of mines as small-time prospectors, I'll grant you your point.

I am an idealist but I'm also a realist. Nothing is going to stop mans encroachment, nothing. It wasn't that long ago when bison roamed the plains in their millions. What do they number now? It wasn't that long ago when the Atlantic Ocean was teaming with fish. Fishermen were too efficient, depleted the resource and eventually were restricted to the point where it became unprofitable to fish and many sold their boats. Do you continue until the last fish has been caught or do you satisfy your hunger with something other than fish?

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156132
02/12/18 10:49 PM
02/12/18 10:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 21,716
Sandhills Nebraska
G
Gary Benson Offline OP
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Gary Benson  Offline OP
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Posts: 21,716
Sandhills Nebraska
Excellent. I know what happens to a lake here when good fishing is discovered.


Life ain't supposed to be easy.
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156173
02/12/18 11:26 PM
02/12/18 11:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
PAlltheway Offline
trapper
PAlltheway  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
Couple of things to watch out for with the Pebble Mine, which we had happen here in PA when the shale gas boomed ten years ago. First, the companies will 'buy' certain elected officials. They will give them so much re-election money that it is almost impossible to beat them (when it becomes evident they are more interested in serving the companies than they are in serving The People). Second, those bought-and-paid-for officials will do everything possible to lighten the most basic regulatory requirements, and they will politically interfere with professional and scientific oversight of the mine\ drilling operation. Case in point: Our Susquehanna River was a world-class fishery. Unbelievable fishing here, drawing people from all over the USA, until the shale gas boom started. Then the river quality plummeted, hardly any fish remained, and even the bird life disappeared. We had a huge heron and egret rookery out on the islands. That is gone. Barely any ducks or Canada geese come through any more. We are talking about a river that is a mile wide or more, with a lot of water, a lot of potential habitat. Even turtles are way down. Used to be a pile of mink for guys to trap. Not as many now. Just weird stuff happened. Something was wrong. The water quality was awful. And then once the drilling dropped off, the river began to really rebound. Now after about four years of quiet, people are catching fish again. Not like ten years ago, but there is a sign of life now. People surmise that there was a lot of "midnight dumping" by brine trucks, carrying really toxic wastewater from the drilling pads and illegally dumping the sludge into waterways. Anyhow, there is a lot that goes into these resource extraction processes, whether gold or gas. Making sure the state has the right oversight process in place to protect the resource while allowing it to be productive here and now, and to resist political interference, is the most important thing. I only visited Alaska once, for a week back in 2005, and we used a plane to get around central AK every day, fish different country. It was phenomenally rich wildlife habitat everywhere we went, but even then the guide would point out a problem area here, an incursion with invasive plants over there. The people of AK have something really special, and when I read comments here that seem acid or deliberately off-the-cuff in favor of full-blown development, it makes me think maybe these people don't want to live in AK, but would rather live in New Jersey. Because that is what they are inviting in. Maybe just moving from AK to New Jersey would solve their material desires, which are stronger than their desire for phenomenal trapping habitat?

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: PAlltheway] #6156283
02/13/18 05:15 AM
02/13/18 05:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
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KenaiKid Offline
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KenaiKid  Offline
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K

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
Guys, we appreciate the advice. Really, I don’t want to appear flippant or ungrateful. But I’d like to point out a couple things.

Alaska’s 4 largest industries are, (if you exclude government), Petroleum, seafood, tourism (including the sport fishing and hunting industries), and mining.

Alaska is the 4th largest oil producer of the United States, with oil generating about 38% of all wages and 85% of our state revenue.
Mining grosses $3 billion/year, making it 38% of our exports.

But despite all this Big Bad development, we also produce 60% of the domestic seafood in the USA, while having sustained and cleaned up the 2nd-largest marine oil spill in US history. We are a world-class hunting and fishing destination, partly due to our management and licensing systems.. Our wildlife populations are thriving, almost universally. Our state contains more wilderness area than the rest of the country combined, and 1/3 of the total national coastline.

All of these industries (oil, mining, fishing, trapping) have been going strong for over 100 years, and ALL continue to prosper.

I’ve built oil pipelines, tank farms and drill rigs. I’ve cleaned up crude. I’ve also commercial fished next to the legs of the oil platforms, and hunted from many an oilfield road. I’ve seen more wild bears and fox near oilfield camps than any other location. We use minimal impact methods, and when we make a mess, we clean it up. We have rigorous and enforced regulations, and because of our love of our land, we hold each other accountable. I’ve already talked to PA about our bonding requirements.

Some of the best trapping and hunting habitat around is within throwing distance of an oilfield pad or mine. If you think those two things are mutually exclusive, maybe you’ve never experienced either.

I guess all this is to say, thanks for sharing your concerns based on YOUR states’ failures, but we’re pretty good at what we do, and what we do is endeavor to manage ALL our natural resources responsibly and compatibly. And we’ve done it successfully for quite awhile. Yep we make mistakes, and then we correct them and learn from them. In fact, the only time we really get jammed up seems to be when some all-knowing eastern Feds or enviros show up smile.
Maybe part of the reason for our success is that we’re a young state and we were able to learn from others’ mistakes. Maybe it’s because of you guys’ states screwing up your water that we learned what not to do! smile. So in that case, thanks for all your help! wink


Originally Posted by Dirt
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Boco couldn't catch a cold.

But if he did, it would be Top Lot.
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: KenaiKid] #6156296
02/13/18 06:53 AM
02/13/18 06:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,333
Fairbanks, Alaska
Pete in Frbks Offline
trapper
Pete in Frbks  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,333
Fairbanks, Alaska
Originally Posted By: KenaiKid
Guys, we appreciate the advice. Really, I don’t want to appear flippant or ungrateful. But I’d like to point out a couple things.

Alaska’s 4 largest industries are, (if you exclude government), Petroleum, seafood, tourism (including the sport fishing and hunting industries), and mining.

Alaska is the 4th largest oil producer of the United States, with oil generating about 38% of all wages and 85% of our state revenue.
Mining grosses $3 billion/year, making it 38% of our exports.

But despite all this Big Bad development, we also produce 60% of the domestic seafood in the USA, while having sustained and cleaned up the 2nd-largest marine oil spill in US history. We are a world-class hunting and fishing destination, partly due to our management and licensing systems.. Our wildlife populations are thriving, almost universally. Our state contains more wilderness area than the rest of the country combined, and 1/3 of the total national coastline.

All of these industries (oil, mining, fishing, trapping) have been going strong for over 100 years, and ALL continue to prosper.

I’ve built oil pipelines, tank farms and drill rigs. I’ve cleaned up crude. I’ve also commercial fished next to the legs of the oil platforms, and hunted from many an oilfield road. I’ve seen more wild bears and fox near oilfield camps than any other location. We use minimal impact methods, and when we make a mess, we clean it up. We have rigorous and enforced regulations, and because of our love of our land, we hold each other accountable. I’ve already talked to PA about our bonding requirements.

Some of the best trapping and hunting habitat around is within throwing distance of an oilfield pad or mine. If you think those two things are mutually exclusive, maybe you’ve never experienced either.

I guess all this is to say, thanks for sharing your concerns based on YOUR states’ failures, but we’re pretty good at what we do, and what we do is endeavor to manage ALL our natural resources responsibly and compatibly. And we’ve done it successfully for quite awhile. Yep we make mistakes, and then we correct them and learn from them. In fact, the only time we really get jammed up seems to be when some all-knowing eastern Feds or enviros show up smile.
Maybe part of the reason for our success is that we’re a young state and we were able to learn from others’ mistakes. Maybe it’s because of you guys’ states screwing up your water that we learned what not to do! smile. So in that case, thanks for all your help! wink


Very well stated. I, for one, am very tired of Alaska constantly being required to give up our rights/privileges to pay for the environmental sins of all the overcrowded, smaller, flat states!

Pete

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156395
02/13/18 09:38 AM
02/13/18 09:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
pa
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hippie Offline
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hippie  Offline
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H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
pa
Glad you guys have a handle on things KenaKid. Most of the distruction (Buffalo,Acid from coal mines,ect.) pointed out in some posts has happened before Alaska was a state. Lessons have been learned which i'm sure helped keep Alaska from making the same mistakes we made.
A nation is only as rich as their resourses.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: PAlltheway] #6156397
02/13/18 09:41 AM
02/13/18 09:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
pa
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hippie Offline
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pa
Originally Posted By: PAlltheway
Couple of things to watch out for with the Pebble Mine, which we had happen here in PA when the shale gas boomed ten years ago. First, the companies will 'buy' certain elected officials. They will give them so much re-election money that it is almost impossible to beat them (when it becomes evident they are more interested in serving the companies than they are in serving The People). Second, those bought-and-paid-for officials will do everything possible to lighten the most basic regulatory requirements, and they will politically interfere with professional and scientific oversight of the mine\ drilling operation. Case in point: Our Susquehanna River was a world-class fishery. Unbelievable fishing here, drawing people from all over the USA, until the shale gas boom started. Then the river quality plummeted, hardly any fish remained, and even the bird life disappeared. We had a huge heron and egret rookery out on the islands. That is gone. Barely any ducks or Canada geese come through any more. We are talking about a river that is a mile wide or more, with a lot of water, a lot of potential habitat. Even turtles are way down. Used to be a pile of mink for guys to trap. Not as many now. Just weird stuff happened. Something was wrong. The water quality was awful. And then once the drilling dropped off, the river began to really rebound. Now after about four years of quiet, people are catching fish again. Not like ten years ago, but there is a sign of life now. People surmise that there was a lot of "midnight dumping" by brine trucks, carrying really toxic wastewater from the drilling pads and illegally dumping the sludge into waterways. Anyhow, there is a lot that goes into these resource extraction processes, whether gold or gas. Making sure the state has the right oversight process in place to protect the resource while allowing it to be productive here and now, and to resist political interference, is the most important thing. I only visited Alaska once, for a week back in 2005, and we used a plane to get around central AK every day, fish different country. It was phenomenally rich wildlife habitat everywhere we went, but even then the guide would point out a problem area here, an incursion with invasive plants over there. The people of AK have something really special, and when I read comments here that seem acid or deliberately off-the-cuff in favor of full-blown development, it makes me think maybe these people don't want to live in AK, but would rather live in New Jersey. Because that is what they are inviting in. Maybe just moving from AK to New Jersey would solve their material desires, which are stronger than their desire for phenomenal trapping habitat?


Any idea what happened to the Bass in the Juniata?

As for the mink, i trap both rivers, the Juniata for decades and the mink population is the highest i ever saw it. I didn't trap the Susquahanna back then, but have in the last ten years and have found a good population of mink, but can't compare to earlier.

Last edited by hippie; 02/13/18 09:42 AM.
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: hippie] #6156515
02/13/18 12:01 PM
02/13/18 12:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
PAlltheway Offline
trapper
PAlltheway  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 605
Central PA, God's Country
Originally Posted By: hippie
Originally Posted By: PAlltheway
Couple of things to watch out for with the Pebble Mine, which we had happen here in PA when the shale gas boomed ten years ago. First, the companies will 'buy' certain elected officials. They will give them so much re-election money that it is almost impossible to beat them (when it becomes evident they are more interested in serving the companies than they are in serving The People). Second, those bought-and-paid-for officials will do everything possible to lighten the most basic regulatory requirements, and they will politically interfere with professional and scientific oversight of the mine\ drilling operation. Case in point: Our Susquehanna River was a world-class fishery. Unbelievable fishing here, drawing people from all over the USA, until the shale gas boom started. Then the river quality plummeted, hardly any fish remained, and even the bird life disappeared. We had a huge heron and egret rookery out on the islands. That is gone. Barely any ducks or Canada geese come through any more. We are talking about a river that is a mile wide or more, with a lot of water, a lot of potential habitat. Even turtles are way down. Used to be a pile of mink for guys to trap. Not as many now. Just weird stuff happened. Something was wrong. The water quality was awful. And then once the drilling dropped off, the river began to really rebound. Now after about four years of quiet, people are catching fish again. Not like ten years ago, but there is a sign of life now. People surmise that there was a lot of "midnight dumping" by brine trucks, carrying really toxic wastewater from the drilling pads and illegally dumping the sludge into waterways. Anyhow, there is a lot that goes into these resource extraction processes, whether gold or gas. Making sure the state has the right oversight process in place to protect the resource while allowing it to be productive here and now, and to resist political interference, is the most important thing. I only visited Alaska once, for a week back in 2005, and we used a plane to get around central AK every day, fish different country. It was phenomenally rich wildlife habitat everywhere we went, but even then the guide would point out a problem area here, an incursion with invasive plants over there. The people of AK have something really special, and when I read comments here that seem acid or deliberately off-the-cuff in favor of full-blown development, it makes me think maybe these people don't want to live in AK, but would rather live in New Jersey. Because that is what they are inviting in. Maybe just moving from AK to New Jersey would solve their material desires, which are stronger than their desire for phenomenal trapping habitat?


Any idea what happened to the Bass in the Juniata?

As for the mink, i trap both rivers, the Juniata for decades and the mink population is the highest i ever saw it. I didn't trap the Susquahanna back then, but have in the last ten years and have found a good population of mink, but can't compare to earlier.

Bass population in the Susquehanna River is now intersex (hermaphroditic), like the bass populations in the Rappahannock and Potomac rivers. Lots of lesions on the fish. A myriad of causes, no one in particular more than others, though the Atrazine herbicides are most likely responsible for the sex-change thing. Endocrine disruptors and hormone inhibitor herbicides created intersex alligators and bass in Lake Okechobee in Florida, surrounded by the big sugar cane plantations.
Intersex bass have about a 10% reproductive success rate, which leads to fewer fish, and probably fewer animals that eat fish.
I don't think the Juniata River has been anywhere near as impacted.
With all the chest thumping and AK pride here, which is understandable to some degree, the point some of us are trying to make seems lost: Don't replicate our back-east mistakes. None of us was around when those mistakes were made, but we see them happening all over again in places like Kentucky and West Virginia. Neither I nor anyone else alive today has ownership of the historic PA coal-country acid mine drainage issues, but we know what caused it and how to avoid it. Others around us seem (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman)-bent to replicate those problems. Similarly, none of us owned slaves and do not own the fallout from that issue, either. From a couple posts here it seems that some eastern people moved west to AK, grew halos, learned to walk on water, pulled up the drawbridge, and now know everything and don't need nuttin from anyone. AK gov't seems to approach natural resource management with intelligence and also with the same boom-bust thinking that left lasting problems back east. We all have a stake in it (not just residents of Washington, DC, have a stake in DC), and trappers\ hunters like me who are pro smart development have a few tangible things to contribute. Kenai you did open my eyes with that bonding law. Truth-in-bonding is the best thing possible for big time extractive production. It sifts the bottom feeders from the long-term investors. It holds people accountable, and makes them ante up up front. This was new information to me and encouraging to read.

Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156549
02/13/18 12:45 PM
02/13/18 12:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
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hippie Offline
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pa
I agree with that, but was misled with your first post blaming gas companies.
My sister is married to a unit leader in the Pa.fbc and he points to what your now saying in your last post.
Just wanted to make sure i didn't miss some new info on the gas companies.

(My opinion, and he and i went rounds on this, is this can be traced back to the big Chesapeake bay clean-up push which pushed no-till and every rinky dink town to install sewage plants and dump that into the river.)

Last edited by hippie; 02/13/18 12:53 PM.
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156560
02/13/18 01:01 PM
02/13/18 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,181
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Dirt  Offline
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Armpit, ak
I been taming wilderness for the last 26 years. Gonna be almost as much to tame after I die. The Parks are hands off. The refuge land is almost as bad. You got enough pristine wilderness protected.

There are 131 million acres managed as parks and refuges in Alaska. That would be more than the total size of Maine, Pennsylvania,and Nebraska combined.


Who is John Galt?
Re: Gold Mountain standoff in Alaska? [Re: Gary Benson] #6156580
02/13/18 01:19 PM
02/13/18 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
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hippie Offline
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Point being that i'm making Dirt is, every action has a reaction.

They wanted to stop silting in the Chessy but the side effects may just be worse than when we started. We ended up with fish that don't know what bathroom to use, and from what i hear, there are some humans down there that are becoming that way, lol.

We use to plow, now a sprayer and a day or so later everything is burnt off. I can't think all that chemical being sprayed is good, but erosion is better.

Same with sewage plants. we had good working in ground septic systems but now we pump it to a pool, spin it around a couple laps and call it good. into the river it goes.

Which is better?

Last edited by hippie; 02/13/18 01:20 PM.
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