Keep in mind that comparing the sale results from a country buyer vs the auction is like comparing apples to alligators, particularly in this market. What I mean is, if you take a truckload of fur to the country buyer, he is going to refuse a certain amount of fur (these would all grade Sec. III). Those, then, wouldn't be included in his average. The shipper, on the other hand, will send everything they finish, including Sec. III stuff (except Boco, of course), there by, dragging their average down. Make sense?

Boco, upon the topic of grading out section 3 fur separately, yes I agree I have no problem with that approach to grading, but that is not going to stop it from show up at the front door of the buyer, or at the auction. I'm all for helping educating people, and there are more tools available at this point in history to do just that than ever before, but its still not going to stop, or even decrease the amount of section 3 fur, because of the very culture that exist here of utilize what you harvest.

Gibb, in the lower 48 furbearers are harvested for other reasons besides just the wishes, or desires of the fur trade. Yes I understand if a person is going play in the fur game, and maximize their profit potential, then yes keeping the section 3 fur to a minimum is essential to good average prices received. Gibb, our wildlife agency's in the lower 48 look at trappers as more of an alternative to pets control lots of times, not that I agree with that assessment, but I'm just pointing out the very facts. The agency's look at trappers as a value in controlling furbearer populations, and how those populations enter act with other species, many endangered. It's a know fact that if trappers in the lower 48 had to sell the ideology of trapping based upon the wishes, or desire of the fur industry, then I believe trapping would not even exist in the lower 48. There have been studies done that attest to this as fact, with many focus group studies done of non trapper/hunters through out our country. Within those focus groups it was found that the rate of acceptance of trapping as a viable means of harvest increased dramatically, when those participating within these studies were told that these trappers utilized their catches to their upmost potential. We train our youth within our country to utilize as much as possible, that is just the way we roll mister.

I find it very funny that the auction houses would even complain about all the section 3 fur. I think at one time when we had more country buyers, that may of acted as a filter of those goods. Some buyers refusing to purchase them, or at least offering them for sale via private treaty away from the auction houses, thus not exposing them to the auction floor. The auction houses seeking business after the 87 -early 90's shake up went with the approach of targeting the trapper more directly than they had in the past. The filter was taken away, and even more so by certain actions taken by the auction houses in what I feel was a direct attempt to circumvent country buyers altogether, a pure business move that helped the bottom line for the auction houses, but one I feel that was very detrimental trapping as a whole in the lower 48. The auction house never complained when orders were coming in for large volumes of section 3 fur, and they were moving section 3 goods readily at each sale, at levels that most felt were respectable. To some degree the auction houses made their bed, so sleep with it.

RTT

Without any doubt in my mind trappers are used by society to clean up excess animal populations, in my home province/state we have an issue with beaver populations, the fur market does not provide an honest return on the harvesting so the numbers of problem beaver issues has sky rocketed.
What was the answer for the government open the season earlier and close it later. Trappers run out and catch even less desirable piece of fur that the fur market can not use. Trapping for beaver can start Oct. 5th here and now closes in most areas April 30th.
Trappers are being used to catch shitty fur for a fur market that does not want it and instead of blaming the government (which by the way gets a free ride here plus taxes us on each skin) the trappper's blame the auction companies.
What we really need is a much shorter season, focus on when the beaver really have some value.

I have been in this skin game a long time and the old model of fur buyers always used the auction companies as a dumping ground for 3rd section furs.

Correct. The averages posted in the NAFA or FHA sales summaries are not intended to be total sale averages to compare with local trapper sales or your average from the rat wagon window. They clearly state that the averages are for better goods and do not include section III. The average by section and the percent sold can give the shipper an idea what decent goods from your section are bringing. And those averages are somewhat comparable from sale to sale to see if the market is advancing or declining. An overall sale average would be very decieving depending on what moves and what is held back. The auction house sets minimums on the better quality goods and may hold back a large percentage if those minimums are not achieved. They are far more likely to move the section III goods at any price if there is interest. What good is an average that includes a few select lots and a couple of pages of section III?

Spot on Jim and walleye 101.

your exactly right gibb its all about the revenue the auction companys and fur buyers can tell the trappers to wait untill the fur is prime and the trappers say their going to wait and then when the goverment opens the season the suckers are out there catching as much worthless fur as they can and putting it on the market which keep the market down even longer then they put all their pictures on the computer like they did something special just like their still in elementary school at show and tell time and all the kids and guys that dont know a low grade fur from a prime one gets on and tell them how good of trapers they are and they like looking at their pictures their the ones that have hurt the market as long as the seasons stay the same the guys will keep going out and catch worthless fur nothing will change.

How does junk fur that goes mainly to the craft trade, a what not or hatter markets got to do with keeping the market down for prime good hides that goes to the fur coat industry. I wouldn't think they would build a fur coat out of flat blue sow coons or beavers hides full of holes.

Who cares what average NAFA uses? Averages are useless. There is too much variability in fur. If you want to get a ballpark figure of what your fur is worth then look at the past NAFA catalog at grades that your fur usually fall into.

Apparently a lot of people care! You have to admit it makes for an entertaining game of competative averaging on Trapper Talk before and after every major auction.

So basically anybody that don't live in Canada should not be allowed to sell on the international market,and southern trappers shouldn't even be allowed to trap, no body wants to talk about the fact that 15000 mink will be sent in this yr. Along with umpteen thousand coon in a crappy market, witch causes a surplus of cheap fur, that in fact once the market does come back will do so slower and stay there less time,what about the 8 doller otters that brought 30 a couple yrs back and 25 doller otter that brought 75 or 100 but they'll be sold for nothin eny how, I guess that stuff don't hurt the markett? your giving your fur away but the mentality is I'll get mine crap on you! Just like nobody going by a standard put up this hurts are market! A few yrs back fur was booming tons of folks on here wouldn't even tell what they sold for and with all the dignity in the world would claim not to be trapping for money, now the market is dismal to say the least and its all we talk about, I trap for money and to be in the woods I ant sold a mink otter or rat in 3 yrs I ant targeted cheap coons in 3 yrs I've got freezers full of good fur that won't bring what it's worth so ill set on it, I worked for it I'm not giving it away, all other incidentals and cheap fur I dump at the end of season, if every body did this we would set the market not chance it by the tail!
Colt

But you have to remember this. When the market Is strong there are less Sec 111 goods then when the market Is soft. Lots of variables are over looked In strong market.

Well this southern boy get hire to kill the mess and there my income so I'm not much for ditching winter fur so we're about to dump enough southern crap fur on the market to keep it down another two years, lol. Got hundreds and hundreds of small southern coons, some good some blue and some full of holes and all nafa bound. So glad I got a good meat market. Shouldn't hurt to bad seeing how very few traps for the money any how. lol.

There is a pile of guys here still trapping fox coyotes and coon. As soon as you mention it's to late and the fur is going down hill you get labled as a know it all or your jealous. They don't understand that the same animal will be worth more next November. I don't like seeing guys out harvesting seed for next year that isn't worth anything and saying ... One less Fawn killer or one less egg eater. I can't make money selling wild pheasants and fawns. But I can sell those rubbed out coyotes that will be prime next November and the coon with paper thin Leather your catching in February that will be prime next year.

I remember when I hauled back a load of SC coon to WI and shipped them to NAFA for a buddy. When the smoke cleared He averaged some where In the $17.00 range. So much for junk southern fur.

Sounds like this is the new stir the pot thread. I do agree that bad fur is bad fur and it is up to the trapper to learn what should and shouldn't be sent. I see nothing wrong with ditching the stuff that is worthless. With all due respect, it's called culling and needs to be done...

Gibb, first off I don't think trappers are blaming the auction hoses for low quality fur, but the auction houses have to realize that not everyone has access to the primo goods, especially in the lower 48. Arkansas beaver are never going to equal the quality of the beaver Boco has upon his line, so don't expect the guy from Arkansas to ship goods equal to Baco's

Gibb, we can blame the government, but they will just say screw you, and make trapping a damage control proposition only. I think at times many of our so call northern brethren would love nothing but to have that happen. I guess we could just keep making America great again, and market our own good right here in the lower 48, just maybe that is what needs to happen anyway. I get sick of hearing how all the low grade fur comes form the lower 48, and that fur is holding back your better high end goods from up north. This happens every time fur takes a dump, and there is always a certain segment of the industry looking to gain a market advantage, and the Yankee clowns to the north are always the first knot heads to jump upon the wagon, brilliant. When we have a market we can't produce enough, and when things go down stream they don't even wish to acknowledge us as fur producers, plus you somehow choose to ignore the millions of ranched goods still coming to market, I guess that's the trappers fault as well. LOL

To say the country fur buyer just use the auction houses as a dumping grounds is not correct, and a complete unfair account of how many country buyers conduct business, but keep beating the anti country buyer agenda. Some things never change. The great Canadian fur scam continues, remember your fur is worthless, so hurry up, and send it to us. LOL

RTT

Most trappers do not know what to cull to be honest. LLL

Good fur bad fur mediocre fur It all seems to find a place on the market. So looking at It that way It all has some value.

I disagree that prime fur from the south is worthless or sec 3.The only difference is the sectioning,and you have a shorter window for harvesting.
If you don't think there are poor pelts here I may be able to find a few pics later on.
Right now I gotta go pull some traps,season for land fur closes in a couple days.

Beav
That's right that's wy the blame game is crap it's all on us in one respect or another!
Ringtail spot on!
Colt