What's everyone's opinion or experience?


thanks
B

You're probably going to get lots and lots of sharetime on this one. I'm on year 32 with longtail Go Devils, by choice. I know what I want out of a mud motor and the longtail satisfies that need.

And you'll have fellas who will say surface drives do everything they want and need.

I'd suggest you find some folks who have 'em and beg for ride alongs. A couple different longtail setups, and a couple different surface drive setups.

Then once you decide on which one, do your homework on the best boat (length/width/weight) that will be served by the best horsepower.

Too many fellas I've known do not take that advice, think they've got it all from reading this and that on the internet, make their purchase, then play the bumpup game a year later or maybe even sooner.

IMO, two rigs will best serve the water trapper. And that's what I've got. From these 32 years of running longtails, I've settled on the Go Devil 9 horse Honda longtail on the back of a 14' Alumacraft V-bow. You can get more payload into the front end of a V-bow and still get it up on plane than you can a flat. Real nice marsh/small river rig.

The other rig is a 16' Alumacraft T16XL that has the transom beefed up to 20" with aluminum plating. On that sets a 35 horse Go Devil longtail. Lightweight boat, plenty of payload in the front end, and that 35 pops it up on plane right now.

Go Devil is all I've ever run, and have had no problems with the rigs all these years except once a 23 horse came with the wrong fitting to the tank and I had to replace that. Otherwise, regular maintenance and keep the prop out of the sand and you've got a rig that will provide you with years of dependability.

Go Devil motors I've owned: 5 hp, 5.5 hp, 8 hp, 13 hp, 18 hp, 23 hp, and the 35s I've got now, the other on an 18' foot flat for duck hunting and fishing.

Look 'em all over. Talk with fellas that own and run 'em . . a lot. And listen to the others who post on here and why they like their rigs.

Just don't rush into it. And have fun!

Different rigs for different applications. I bought my small SPS longtail in the summer of "13" and it serves me well on small water. I would like a bigger rig too, and haven't bought one yet. Bigger water takes a bigger motor. Surface drives are spendier and a lot more hp than my little rig. Money was an object, still is .

My buddy has a surface drive we run in the Grand River . It wont set speed records but is a decent setup for shallow stuff.

I've picked up an old 48 x 16 riveted Jon I'd like to put something bigger on. That would let me run the Rainy River safely, I cant do it with my little rat rig...here is a pic of the small rig.
Shallow water, small waves only with this 14' Montgomery Wards type boat.

That little 6.5 predator wont quite jump a beaver dam with the boat near empty, I had about 40lbs of gear just ahead of my handhold.

This little rig is nimble, and agile. I have picked my way through a lot of spots with it and a bigger rig might not do in the tight areas .

What are your applications? How long are you running it per day, how far... and how much does turning/maneuverability factor into your needs?

You can save a few bucks with the longtails but they can wear a guy out a lot faster and you lose the turning ability (which may or may not be an issue for you).

Has anyone tried the scavengers?

Getting wore out from running a longtail while rat trapping is an issue.

Thanks Muskrat and Les for the info and photos. Maybe someone will weigh in on the Surface drive. What I want to do is put it on a 14-16 foot v bottom boat and run a secondary river and channels off that river. My thought right now is to strictly water trap only.


Thanks
Ben

Some of the surface drives you can get a clutch button so the prop isnt running full time or when you want to slow it down. Without the clutch the prop runs full time and you have to trim up to stop. My buddy's surface drive is a full time one. He has to Trim up (electric trim) to slow down and it will spray a good path of water. With the trim button its a learning curve, but I would think its less tiring then a long tail but haven't driven a long tail so cant say 100%. The electric trim was an option on his surface drive also along with clutch package for disengaging prop. Few options to think about if your looking at surface drives.
Turning around in a tight narrow spot with a bunch of stumps and logs could be trickier with a long tail IMO, but either mud motor would be suited well for the crooked river or other small tributaries down your way. Good luck if you end up getting one keep us informed.

I have a surface drive. But, I have a boat made for a surface drive and I'm not sure how one would perform on a boat made for an outboard. My 23 hp SD pushed my 1548 at least 20 mph, which is nice because I have to make longer runs. I can adjust it so the prop barely licks the water when I'm setting and checking. It just crawls along which is nice.

If you're going to be using a regular boat, designed for an outboard, you probably should go w/ a longtail. But, my only experience is w/ SD, so what do I know?

I can say, I will never go back to an outboard for trapping. I'm done w/ sheared pins and busted up props. Air cooled is very nice.

Going on a ride along w/ someone is a good idea. I know it's intimidating when you don't have experience with either a LT or SD. It can be a big investment, so you want to make the best informed decision that you can.

Good luck!

I have a 23hp surface drive on a 16 ft Lowe Jon boat.
At one time I had a 23hp long tail on it.
I only use it duck hunting so this is my take on them.

In the long tail I almost had to stand up running it.With the asian carp we
have here,I can't think of a better way to go for a swim.

The sd turns sharper and can be run sitting down.It
has an electric trim on it also.

Dan

Do surface drives have reverse? I was hung up on tall tree stumps that were just underwater a few times with a flatbottom and a longshaft..Trees that had been inn the water for a few decades and rotted off at the surface. Maybe 10-15'of water.

To deep for the push pole and had to swim to shore both times with a rope and pull the boat off.

Having reverse is always a plus. Anyway ran 5 and 18 hp go devils, they ran fine.

Muskrat and Trapper Les pretty much said it all as far as I'm concerned.
If you were running MOSTLY deeper water or marshes, I'd consider a surface drive. MOSTLY on the shallow side, long tail wins hands down. My disclaimer is that I've owned a Go Devil 24 HP Honda longtail for 18 years. NEVER one problem mechanically or functionally, and I've seen surface drives in same situation where I hunt/trap, struggle a bit in very shallow water. I've said my boat, 16' Sea Ark flat bottom, and motor could run on wet grass if it had to. To each their own, based on preference and application, but my 2 cents.

I had a Go Devil longtail with a 23hp Kohler on a 16x48 Jon boat. Had a grab bar and it was a fight in the rivers I used it on and had limited maneuverability.

Sold it first chance I got.

I'd buy another but it would be on a smaller boat and less than 10hp.

I put together a alumacraft 14x36 with a Beaver dam mud runner long tail kit. Put a 100$ predator 6.5 hp engine on it and have never looked back. I chose a 65in shaft over the standard 80. I actually stand on the seat to run it. 14mph with myself my 6yr old and fishing gear. For less than 1200$ for the whole package I'll never got back to an outboard. That being said it is not a long haul rig. After 30 min solid motoring I have to take a break or my back will give out

I have 3 surface drives. two are 14 hp units (same unit) for my rat boat (1442) and a 28hp unit is on the 1648 jon. They really run like an outboard where you can adjust the the prop depth and not have to hold it at the correct water dept. Sit down or stand up...whatever you feel. I opted out of the hydraulic trim as the manual star wheel works just fine (even on the bigger unit).

Neither of my boats are designed for a mud motor. Both are just the standard riveted jons. I went with the riveted for both due to weight. I have a welded fishing jon and if you ever get that thing hung up, you need a crane to get it unstuck. I wanted a light boat that I could get out and free myself if I had to...or push pole off of something. If I were in a rocky areas, I might consider the welded, however....maybe.

As far as boats go, longer is usually better in relationship to mud motors...especially if you don't have pods (which I don't) Front end weight is a nice thing with mud motors. With the weight of the motor and a guy in the far rear, you'll want weight up front to even out your boat. Easier to do with a little extra length if you don't have traps or critters to do it for you.

As stated, some Surface drives have a clutch and some don't. Mine do and have been bulletproof. Let off the gas and it idles down and the prop stops spinning. Most of the smaller units are going to be direct drive without a clutch, however. If they do have a clutch, I would steer clear of electric clutches for trapping. Idling heats up the electric clutches and they can fail. Mud Buddy steered me away from their electric clutch once they understood I was a trapper and it would be idling a lot.

Marty...Yes, many manufacturers now make Surface drives with Reverse. The units look just like an outboard nowadays. But it's only the larger models, last I checked.

Another consideration for any mud motor or boat combo is payload and type of use. A little forethought into what kind of critters (how much a days catch will weigh) and how far one need to go to get there in back is essential in picking a boat/motor combo. I won't go coon and beaver trapping in my rat boat. I also won't trap rats all day out of my big boat. fighting a big boat and motor in a rat slough will wear you out. Just food for thought.

^ Some good info, I agree about the boat combo being important. You want a rig that drafts in little water. Wont matter whats pushing it on the back if it drafts well.

I'm gonna have to look into the build your own Longtails like mentioned above. I have a little 14 foot flat with a 10hp Johnson and a homemade jackplate right now.

I owned a 37 gator tail for a year until I tore up the alumacraft i put it on. I couldn't afford the right boat. Big mistake as posted above. I trapped minnows with it and had a 50 gallon tank in it. Those motors are very impressive and pushed that weight like nothing. Game changer in getting to fresh minnow ground. I plan on investing in there new gtr XD with the correct boat. With the low horsepower surface drives out there I honestly don't see a advantage to a long tail. Just my person opinion

Cost is a huge advantage....

My little 6.5 predator was $100 and the kit was $399, plus tax and a few assesories . My boat and trailer was $350 with an old motor on it. You cant buy a longtail at that price in a backwater or go devil, and certainly not a surface drive. Meanwhile, for the price, I'm scooting all over God's country with my rat boat. But, I have brought that boat in with very little freeboard a time or two when pulling gear.

SniperBBB I bought 6.5 hp scavenger in 2006. Been great rig and its been abused bad on rock filled rivers. The prop is unbreakable and the big loop steering handle is great no leaning out of boat to turn.

sniper bbb, i ran a scavanger 6.5 hp for many years on a coleman plastic joh....while it worked on the knarly trashy river i ran ok for coon trapping where you never really could run much speed due to hitting something every 100 yards, once i started using it in more open water rat trapping its limitations became apparent.....that auger prop design altough bulletproof is about the most in-efficient of anything else around...1/2 the power/thrust of a comparable longtail of same HP with a convention RH mudmotor prop.....a 5 hp godevil with a worn out prop will run circles around a scav with a 6.5 motor and new prop........problem is the scav are LH rotation and you cant convert to regular mudmotor prop......they might seem ok thrust and speed wise on an empty boat, but throw a load in it and youll see what I mean......throw 15 coon and gear in mine i had on the river, and it wont go any faster than you can walk upstream.......i always had to run downstream and arrange vehicle shuttling with it.....once i bumped up to a godevil 9 horse i could run upstream one day, and downstream the next, and not have to pull boat out every day...........for a reasonable lower priced entry outfit id look at a stumpjumper frame kit and add own motor like 6.5 predator, little more money a 7 hp suburu ele start on it.....it pennys and nickles mattered id get some thai mudmotor kit and try to get a regular forged s.s mudmotor prop on it, before id ever buy another scavenger......now if i was really rolling in greenbacks, id run up visit Calvin and try to get him drunk and buy one of his, then leave town with it before he wakes up.....

id upgraded the old go-devil i got with predator 14 hp ele start, it was the old style go-devil frame with a single prop nut.....it finally caught up with me and the yoke slipped and tore up bottom end seal cap so its about scrap iron now.....my plan was to upgrade with rat money this year to a 10-14 backwater longtail,.....now after selling 450 outta 700 rats last nafa sale i think the backwater is out of my budget and so is one of calvins,,,,,looks like it gonna be a long drive to northern MN to get a certain trapper drunk enough to sell me his thai mudmotor with that groovy custom conduit handlebar ........then start buying them props by the 12 pack.....

Does that handlebar double as a UHF antenna so a guy can watch Opra on the long stretches?.............

Marty, even with a 14 hp go-devil, and a 3/4 full load, you should be able to get off a hung up log shifting weight around, and rocking the heck outta the boat, even when ya cant reach bottom with a pole......maybe I just try harder cause im not the best swimmer, but Ive had some pretty bad hangups and ive never had to swim.....ive tiewired an oar to a pushpole to save myself once

I have lots of opinions on this subject, as I do for most, lol. So for me the answer depends on your goal.

I have run a 23 horse Go devil long tail on a couple different boats. Fine motor and with the right boat an effective combo. Turning radius is an issue for me. I have run surface drives also on many different boats. I have used a 23 horse with a vanguard motor, 23 horse mud buddy, 35 horse mud buddy (I think it had a Briggs, or was it Honda?), 75 horse mud buddy, and 35 horse Gator trax. I do know I have run motors with Briggs, Honda, and Vanguard engines.

So, here is what I have experienced with surface drives: I have thrown rods, blown heads, and twisted drive shafts like pretzels, which of course blew the motor. If my memory is correct I have watched motors blow 5 times, 3 times when I was driving. Make and model was a factor, but not exclusively.

To compare the two for agility and ability, surface drives all the way. For forgiveness on the equipment, long tails are the way to go. By design the surface drive transfers the energy in a fairly unforgivable manner to the prop. The reverse is also true. For whatever reason long tails are less prone to catching something and stopping cold.

So which one? It would depend on why it was needed. I'd still buy either style but there are some brands and configurations I wouldn't touch. I had planned to buy a kit to try the 6.5 horse long tail, but my life changed when I moved.

Rich Scavenger came out with new style prop with much better thrust. Have not bought it yet but called them and got details and price awhile back.

Just a little info on some of the Engines out there. When I bought my first mud motor I went with the cheaper Lifan motor. I "think" this motor might be the same one other companies run. Well they are junk. My only hopes would it would throw a rod...when and if I could get the thing started. I talked to my builder and he stated about all will break down as he's even seen Vanguards with the rods hanging out of the sides of them...but people seem to keep buying them. He stated, in his opinion, the Kohlers were the way to go. So All of my units now have Kohlers on them. I've used the 14s extensively and can not get one to fail. They are both one pull motors no matter if rain, snow, freezing sleet or leaving the gas on while trailering....summer or winter. I've had motors this size that would about break your wrist if you had the rope start... but these 14s pull over about like any new push lawmower....very easy. These are also very small motors size wise. I simply have not used my 28 hp Kohler enough to comment, however.

BUT, just because you can open an engine wide open, doesn't mean you should. Load a mud boat down real good with critters, traps, water and mud and you'll go about the same speed at half throttle than you will at full throttle most times (depending on the prop pitch), I've found. I learned this one night coming across a lake loaded after dark. I looked back and saw the muffler was cherry red with fire spiting out about 8" past the exhaust port. That's a lot of stress for any air cooled engine. I backed it down and sustained about the same speed without the heat.

Good luck getting that ol' trapper drunk, last I heard he got religion of some kind, took a sabbatical from the vile spirits, and only chases pentacostal girls. Don't know if you can believe all you hear. That handle bar is a nice touch if you got vertigo half the time.

Rich, I got a new 6.5 and 420 predator setting in the shed, still in there boxes, I picked up at an estate clean out. Havent decided what to do with them yet. That 420 is screaming for an SPS kit. SPS has weedless props to fit kits for those two motors .

Several of you have talked about matching it to the right boat. Well what is the right boat??? So far what I've read on duck forums it talks about smooth bottom in a Jon boat style. But others talk about a semi V(narrow boat) and pictures shown here show a long tail on a V bottom boat (which I already have). Would be interested in pictures and what works for you. As stated I want to use it on a secondary river and creeks leading in to it.
What I've learned:
Long tail are reasonably priced but will give you a work out.
Surface drive are more costly but seem to handle better.



B

Mudmotortalk.com is probably a better place for this question.

I would take advice on here over a bunch of duck hunters. Duck hunters go from point A to point B and sit. A mud motor for, say, a rat trapper or beaver/ coon guy is far different.
I think a guy has to narrow down his main targeted animal and how many traps he's running (and what conditions) and go from there.

I just got word that the guy/company that built my mud motors maybe coming back into business with a smaller 14 hp surface drive again. To my knowledge its the only unit that runs on a HD centrifugal clutch system...so chop the throttle and the prop stops spinning (no foreward movement when rat trapping can be a huge asset) and I've found his clutches to be bullet proof. I'll keep y'all posted.

What is this work out???? For crying out loud I keep reading about this "work out" when running longtails.

Get your cavitation plate bent correctly and you can run a 35 horse longtail down the river with one finger.

Somebody tell me what the work out is please.

Rambo had no trouble running a longtail.....

Muskrat, I think it's referring to us rat trappers that are constantly turning...or trying to (at non consistent speeds). Of course that's a far different application to river trapping.

Yea, right.

I threw the BS flag on Rambo a long time ago. Check Rambo running the longtail in this clip. Run it forward to 2:20 and click on play. Check out the lack of vibration in his hands as he grips the handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OBSIKDN1rQ&list=RD4OBSIKDN1rQ#t=155

Let it ride to 2:29 and check out the boat being propelled supposedly by this mudmotor. Notice we're not seeing the end of the shaft in the water. That must be one real smooth engine to push that boat without vibrating just a bit, eh?

I've seen stern shots of Rambo running a mudmotor and they've done a good job of hiding the inboard in the boat.

Oh well, it's Hollywood.

If the huts are that close together I say break out the oars!

My little rig, at an idle will run you past a rat run, as it's just a hair too fast, and when you wheel around you have to be careful not to muddy things up so you cant see. I wouldn't go shorter than 14' with a small v-hull and my little 6.5hp rig.

I shut my rig off and use a push pole if sets are real close.

A longtail is afraid to vibrate when Rambo holds it...

your better 0ff in 14 ft than a 12, the extra lenght will let ya plane up a little more than the shorter boat......let the water tell ya what to run, v or jon.....there is nothing wrong with a v really and for most part they are tougher.....lotta that mudmotor,com talk is about irrelevent to trappers.....all welded flat bottom yada yada....many rivers ive trapped there is no boat ramp and you aint gonna get one of those heavy things in the water to begin with....kinda like the jeep rock crawler crowd, what they run for ulimate climbing aint relivant to most offroad crowd as ya cant hardly drive a rock crawler rig down the highway......be careful some the lightest flimzyest joh boats, you can run a log right thru the hull or tear off transom if ya tried hard enough.......if your running a small under 10 hp, especially smaller like a 6.5, you aint got enough HP to worry about ulimate boat design, top end speed, etc....to a degree really.

If your on big water be careful with a small skinny jon, throw 150 lbs of mudmotor on it, then add weight like a trapper, where max payload rating is a understood to be a good starting point, throw some 2 ft rollers out there you can end up being some good crappie fishing structure....sometimes motoring mile and 1/2 along reedline in 3-4 ft of water, is the smarter thing to do than the 1/2 mile run across 25 ft of water

Les take that 6.5 and hop it up like the gokart komakazi fantazy indy driver crowd does, they say they can get 14 hp outta a 6.5, and get ya one of them new hongkong chopstick surface drives with a sewer snake flexible driveshaft, and get'r done!!!.....id advise wearing level 3 body armour and kevlar helmit, so when the sewer snake driveline fly apart from being ran 4x the rpm they are designed for, your ready for it.....couse some guys like scars....when the ole barroom who got the coolest scar talk comes up the "heres the one i got when they had to pull the alum mudmotor prop outta my forehead" would be hard to beat....LOL

Couple G worth of mudmotor hanging off back of boat, and you want to PADDLE?.....SACRILEGE!!!!

I get (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) off if i gotta pick up the dam push pole more than twice.......LOL

When you got a feeder flat, or toilet every 20' or closer, you grab the push pole. I love them honey pockets.

I plan on the free flow air filter, Robertson torque tube/and muffler, and rejet my 6.5 to get the most out it while keeping close to stock. If you buy the SPS rig, there is a good online forum for owners that has a lot of info about the subject of SPS rigs/makes/and builds . I wouldn't build the screamer for my rat rig, but I would free up the "flow" of air and fuel. There is an adjustable jet for my rig, I hear.

In a way, I wish my little Monkey wards type boat was all it is but 2' longer and that light...then I would up the hp a little .

42" beam x 14' and it is a shallow boat, nothing you would go a half mile over 25' of water with a load in on questionable rough water .

Electric start I motor to bout everything, even the other side of the hut

Heck I wanna find a way to motor from the back, to the front of the boat

Me too, but for now I'll keep working at it. I will say that if you start and kill, start and kill, your 6.5 predator all the time...it does suck to not have an extra rewind rope with you when that breaks after starting in 40 times when the rope was getting stranded, thinking it would hold for one more start. There is no 6.5 with electric.

Briggs makes one Les....also there are some lifetime superbraid starter ropes out there now

My motor runs pretty much the entire time I'm on the water. I can't think of a time when I've used my push pole over my motor to set traps.

Calvin, do you have center council or tiller steering ?

Tiller, Les. We all trap different body's of water. I'm just trying to figure out the differences here, I guess.

Got the ultimate push pole: duckbill on the end of a pole vault pole. At times I do let the motor run. Got a rope tied to the floor strut with a loop tied on the other end. Slip the handle of the motor through the loop and it can run with the prop out of the water. The oars are for a bit longer distances than the push pole. You guys remember oars, right?

You guys remember oars, right?

Remember burning them good riddance the day I bought my first motor......

I thought maybe I had seen surface drive, power trim, and center consul once in a pic.


I remember oars, and I carry a pair, along with a push pole, and my handle is balsam fir, and 30 years old too . I tie down my running motor similar to how Muskrat does it .

Les, I think maybe I saw one of those on Swamp People or something, too.

I always keep oars in the boat as well. Had a bad shaft snap on me last spring... with a dozen beaver and a load of traps and rebar in the boat. Oars and oar locks can save your butt in some cases.

If that ever happened to Rich he'd just shrug his shoulders, mutter a few expletives, throw a bow line out, strip down to his skivvies, jump overboard, and drag that boat from hut to hut! The man is a beast!!!

Balsam fir is super light, lol. And common . You should see the handles on my line up of garden tools.

I'm a little late to the conversation but will add my video. I've posted this before, sorry if anybody is tired of seeing it, but we had so much fun shooting this run and I think it is pretty cool.

Boat is a Lowe 16x48 rebuilt, re-welded, new transom etc, but a very lightweight boat. As you can see, there are only two of us in the boat and it will run very shallow. As you would expect, the more weight, the more draft, the slower it runs.

Motor is a Mud buddy Hyper-drive (surface drive) 45 hp, with electric trim. Lots of power for speed or heavy loads (at slower speeds) primarily a duck hunting outfit but I fish and trap out of it as well. The updated version of this motor is $10,000 so that may be a little more than most people wanna spend which I certainly understand. (Spent $8,000 about 10 years ago, when I bought it new). This motor is a little too loud, but the new ones come with a much quieter muffler. When the time comes, I WILL purchase a new one.

Cool vid.
When I was looking at a 30hp unit a few years ago, I contacted Mud buddy. Was going to be a coon/beaver motor. They told me their electric clutch wasn't going to work for me as the idling that trappers do eats them up. They had sold 2 units to rat trappers the year previous and both went through 3 clutches in a season. He said he was working on a different clutch system then (for guys who idle them), but I don't know if it every hit the market.

I went to the same builder that makes my rats boat units with a HD centrifugal clutch...Been bulletproof for me.

Of course your application seems much different.

Great vid. I don't see my self using that for a rat rig, lol.

always have a pushpole and a legal paddle....if stranded with conked out motor i think i can make better time with a pushpole than oars, oars take up space on a small rig, or should i say take up space where its needed for something else

looks like a guy could run a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) of a cat line from a boat on that river

My oars are strapped in under an oarlock on one side or the other.

what id really like to try is one of those joh boats they mount a jet ski jet drive in.....think that might be the ultimate marsh motor except for the weight

do you ever hit rocks with that 45 hp? bet that would make a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) of a racket!....or does the skeg keep prop out of harms way?.....kinda looks like the Green River?

So...where is there a graveyard of them jetskis at ? I have a little 12' jon to playwith .

Usually if its not sticking out of the water (or just under the surface) I can trim up to miss rocks, logs, etc. The prop will still push the boat half in / half out of the water. But sometimes I hit 'em hard. The rock guard helps a lot and If I'm lucky, the motor jumps outta of the water when that happens. I've sideswiped a few good boulders though. Rock guard doesn't help in those situations. Thanks

My surface drives run best (on plane) with about half (or more) of the prop out of the water as well. Makes for some pretty shallow traveling.... as seen above.