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#6207156 - 04/03/18 06:16 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
rpmartin Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/03/14
Posts: 712
Loc: S/W Wisconsin
Your last paragraph sums it up. Where did anyone state that wolves were completely wiping any animals out on this thread or even the link that was posted? We are talking the ability for population control, right now we have nothing and the population is well above what we were told they be held at.

I think any study can ultimately have the results swayed any way the folks doing the study want, so ya I think alot of them are inaccurate.

I read the first one you put up, when they said the wolves eating at a carcass dump and the coyotes were eating the deer, yeah right! Where are all these supposed carcasses coming from, you mean the farmers don't know how to raise cattle and there all dyeing off, please.
That's all I needed to read right there on that one.

Wisconsin and Kentucky got their elk at the same time from RMEF, Kentucky's herd has flourished ours have been struggling from day 1. It's my opinion the wolves are biggest part of that problem.

Ground Zero where the wolves were released in the river of no return wilderness area in Idaho the elk herd has been devastated compared to when I guided there in the eighties. I have been back several times sense then and you can't even hardly find an elk track let alone see one. I didn't think the wolves could do what they did but I seen it with my own eyes. That was enough to convince me they are killing machines and have to be controlled.

I could go on and on but I'm tired of pecking away at this stupid phone.
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#6207213 - 04/03/18 07:19 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
B. Shope Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 915
Loc: Montana
Done yesterday
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#6207343 - 04/03/18 08:59 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
rpmartin Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/03/14
Posts: 712
Loc: S/W Wisconsin
Thanks to everyone who emailed.

Dirty d, back to your first link I talked about above, how did these college kids know the wolves were eating on carcasses? Did they have game cam pics, we're they in a blind, if so did they not have a camera? My point is why no pics? Maybe they were too stoned to run the camera or they forgot how to post pics. Maybe they just went by tracks, can they tell the difference?

Do you have pics or can you post pics to back up what your little yuppies seem to believe? If that first pathetic link is all you have then you ain't got nothing but bunch of garbage.

Go put your boots on and go for a walk in wolf country and see for yourself what is really going on then came back here and tell us what you have seen. Unbiased please

Like I said before, wolves are flat out killing machines and we have both hands tied behind our backs with no control whatsoever. Wolves are big and need to kill big game to keep fed.

If your mind is already made up and not willing to go see what's really going on than so be it.

Are you related to FlyinFinn?
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#6207434 - 04/03/18 09:53 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
AJE Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 3504
Loc: WI - Wisconsin
D, I guess I'm struggling to follow your argument. You say you are for delisting. I'd be curious to hear more about your proposed strategy for getting them delisted.
If you want to see what it's like living with wolves, you only have to go as far north as Jackson County. While in Jackson Co, you will see what they are doing to the elk.
I don't think people are arguing that the sole reason we need a wolf season is because of the toll they take on deer. The wolf season we had was based on sound science. Talk to any DNR staffer and they agree we'd be better off if the state could manage wolves. They know how to do it, they just need the authority.


Edited by AJE (04/04/18 07:20 AM)
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#6207770 - 04/04/18 07:32 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
GROUSEWIT Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 274
Loc: 7mtns of CENTRAL PA
Does the state game commission have a report on how much revenue was lost since wolves were introduced?
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#6207804 - 04/04/18 08:00 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
AJE Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/22/16
Posts: 3504
Loc: WI - Wisconsin
They strongly argue wolves were not re-introduced. They came in to Wi on their own 4 legs, is was the state says.
But the state really wants the ability to manage them.
I'm not aware of a cost estimate on them.


Edited by AJE (04/04/18 08:01 AM)
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#6207809 - 04/04/18 08:04 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
Dirty D Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 286
Loc: east central WI
Originally Posted By: rpmartin
Thanks to everyone who emailed.

Dirty d, back to your first link I talked about above, how did these college kids know the wolves were eating on carcasses? Did they have game cam pics, we're they in a blind, if so did they not have a camera? My point is why no pics? Maybe they were too stoned to run the camera or they forgot how to post pics. Maybe they just went by tracks, can they tell the difference?

Do you have pics or can you post pics to back up what your little yuppies seem to believe? If that first pathetic link is all you have then you ain't got nothing but bunch of garbage.

Go put your boots on and go for a walk in wolf country and see for yourself what is really going on then came back here and tell us what you have seen. Unbiased please

Like I said before, wolves are flat out killing machines and we have both hands tied behind our backs with no control whatsoever. Wolves are big and need to kill big game to keep fed.

If your mind is already made up and not willing to go see what's really going on than so be it.

Are you related to FlyinFinn?


I spent maybe 5 minutes after a search reading and adding the links for 3 studies in the GL states on wolves and deer.
I said and I understand you may not like the studies. OK, lets forget the 1st one, how about the 2nd and 3rd?
I can get lots more studies that show approx the same thing. Wolves are not the LIMITING factor in deer populations.

Danny Clifton in his 1st post in this thread said wolves are "wiping out" game populations.

I have walked in wolf country. I have seen few wolf tracks, never seen a wolf, seen lots of deer tracks and seen some deer.
So what does that prove?

One day I saw 8 deer. The next day I didn't see any. I guess that means the deer where all eaten by wolves before the second day.
Stupid statement but it pretty much sums it up.

The DNR spends lots of time studying wolves and deer population dynamics. How many studies have you done other than your walk in the woods or gossip down at the corner bar?

Again, Find me a study that shows that wolves are the LIMITING factor in deer population levels. There are none cause they are not the limiting factor. Weather is a bigger factor on deer population in Northern areas.
Read the 3rd study.

Until I see some thing other than "the wolves are killing machines" and "we used to have tons of deer now they are all gone cause of those dam wolves" I'll believe the scientific studies.

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#6207867 - 04/04/18 09:07 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: AJE]
Dirty D Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 286
Loc: east central WI
Originally Posted By: AJE
D, I guess I'm struggling to follow your argument. You say you are for delisting. I'd be curious to hear more about your proposed strategy for getting them delisted.
If you want to see what it's like living with wolves, you only have to go as far north as Jackson County. While in Jackson Co, you will see what they are doing to the elk.
I don't think people are arguing that the sole reason we need a wolf season is because of the toll they take on deer. The wolf season we had was based on sound science. Talk to any DNR staffer and they agree we'd be better off if the state could manage wolves. They know how to do it, they just need the authority.


I agree with you. They should be delisted and they should be harvested (either hunted or trapped or both). I'm for the end goal of delisting, but the way they are going about it is all wrong. I'm a hunter and it turns me off. It comes across as "those dam wolves are eating our deer". Its a selfish push for their own benefit. It only appeals to a segment of hunters. That is where the group in the link in this thread is coming from.

I would think that a push for delisting based on several factors would appeal to a bigger group and therefore have a better chance. I'm no expert but I'd push a couple of angles.
1) The states are should be the controlling entity manage a sustainable wolf population as they have in the recent past. The Feds have no mechanism or system to monitor and manage a self sustaining population.
2) Wolf population should be monitored and studied to maintain a healthy population. Excessive populations can lead to stress and starvation of animals. Also human/wolf and livestock/wolf interactions need to be kept to an acceptable amount so as to avoid negative stereotypes and unwanted mortality caused by frustrated humans affected by high populations and sense of helplessness in dealing with interactions.

I could maybe come up with several more but I'm sure you get the gist of it.
You'll never convince the average Joe who has no stake in the wolf populations to join the battle if its even just adding a name to a list if all you can say is "they are eating my deer".
Don't say "we need to kill those dam wolves".
Tell them you want a "self-sustaining population that is managed". Which means we will kill wolves to keep them at a certain level but it sounds much better.
Tell them that too high a population has down sides like added stress and starvation to the population, Don't use exaggerations "Wolves will wipe out the deer". Show them that you care about ALL wildlife and not just the ones you shoot.

I hope you get where I'm coming from.

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#6207915 - 04/04/18 10:07 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
rpmartin Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/03/14
Posts: 712
Loc: S/W Wisconsin
Ok, let's just agree on what this thread was started for, delisting and giving the individual states the power to permanently be able to control the population.

What do you mean when you say (self sustaining wolf population that is managed )? That statement is a bit contradictory. Do you think the population of wolves should be higher?

What do you suggest these wolves are eating if not venison?


Edited by rpmartin (04/04/18 02:57 PM)
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#6208215 - 04/04/18 04:17 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
Dirty D Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/12/14
Posts: 286
Loc: east central WI
Originally Posted By: rpmartin
Ok, let's just agree on what this thread was started for, delisting and giving the individual states the power to permanently be able to control the population.

What do you mean when you say (self sustaining wolf population that is managed )? That statement is a bit contradictory. Do you think the population of wolves should be higher?

What do you suggest these wolves are eating if not venison?


A self sustaining population means that a species can reproduce at a pace so that it does not disappear. Populations may go up and down but as long as they are able to keep from disappearing.

Deer have a self sustaining population, there have been bigger amounts and there have been smaller amounts but they are able to not disappear without man introducing (releasing) more individuals in the wild to keep the population going.
You might be able to argue that Pheasants do not have self sustaining populations in many of the areas they are hunted in the fall. If Man was to stop stocking them they would probably disappear. So they can not self sustain themselves.

Wolves are able to reproduce in such numbers that they will not disappear. In fact they are increasing in numbers. Managing it means that the resource (wolves) will be hunted and or trapped.

Being self sustaining and being managed are not contradictions. Deer are self sustaining and they are managed (hunted).

Wolf populations, do I think they should be higher? Generally no. The sad situation we are in now is I think they are going to continue to increase in population and they will start to spread south. If I had to do an honest guess on what does the DNR wants, more wolves or less, I'd say there are some in the dept. that want more and they like to see them spread south.

I have no illusion that wolves don't eat deer. All the studies I read is they do not eat enough of them to be the one thing out there that controls the population. Humans are the limiting factor in the deer population in the north right now. Wolves take a slice of the pie but not as big a slice as you and I do. Weather is a big factor too. Deer may not die directly from the weather but they are beaten up to a point that they are easy prey during certain weather conditions (snow depth) and will reproduce less fawns and weaker fawns after a hard winter. Weaker fawns means they are easier prey for bobcats, coyotes, bear and wolves. Its not just the predators but the combination of weather and predators that really gives a one two punch. You don't have that problem in the Southern 1/2 of the state. If we have a really hard winter in the southern 1/2 the biggest fear deer would have is starvation.

So what do you think? Should all predators of deer be eliminated? No more bobcats, no more coyotes, no more bears, no more wolves??

Do you think wolves should be eliminated from the state? If so why?

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#6208302 - 04/04/18 06:09 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
rpmartin Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/03/14
Posts: 712
Loc: S/W Wisconsin
I guess I thought self-sustainable meant that the population was kept in check without outide help. I see what you mean now. I don't think there is any question that wolves are self-sustainable. All the animals you stated that eat venison are controlled except the wolves. Again, that is the whole reason for this thread. Don't turn predators loose then tie our hands behind our backs with no way to control them. Because the number of wolves are far above the number they told us they would be held at. I don't know about you but I don't much care to be lied to. It's like the old saying, don't wiz down my back and tell me it's raining.

No I do not want the wolves gone, just controlled but what was the reason they were reintroduced?

Your third link/study states that (deer provided 79 to 98% of the biomass in their scat. That seems pretty high to me. And they weren't able to estimate the wolf-caused mortality of fawns younger than 6 months old.
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#6208415 - 04/04/18 08:20 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
B. Shope Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 915
Loc: Montana
An area i hunt used to be teaming with game. One day 15 yrs ago the wolves started howling. Numerous packs were heli shotin this area. Moose disappeared elk numbers serious decline.Wolves have no purpose on todays landscape. End of story
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#6208422 - 04/04/18 08:26 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
B. Shope Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 915
Loc: Montana
No expensive study needed
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#6208647 - 04/05/18 03:36 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
danny clifton Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 11734
Loc: williamsburg ks
I have 0 confidence in a lot of "studies". They are nothing more than an attempt to stop humans from preying on animals.

In CO they have severely limited the number of cougars that can be killed. There is no spring bear season, no baiting bears, and no hound hunting them anymore. There is no coyote trapping except on private land with a permit. Bobcats can be cage trapped which helps keep them controlled. Now with the increase in all the animals that kill deer the dept. of wildlife can't figure out why deer numbers are declining. No more OTC sales of tags. They still sell OTC elk tags but only because elk are much harder to get too. Hunters are successful at a rate of only about 20% and a lot of those are elk that have essentially been bought from ranchers. The same ranchers tax dollars provide some relief to for elk damage.

I don't trust any wolf study done by a state agency. They will tell you anything to get you onboard with whatever the newest fad is.

When the first settlers started killing wolves they didn't put all that effort into it out of boredom. They had a tough time finding time to sleep there was so much work to do. yet they thought wolf killing was time that need spent. They were reintroduced because Disney fans don't want humans preying on wild animals.
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#6208678 - 04/05/18 05:46 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
rpmartin Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/03/14
Posts: 712
Loc: S/W Wisconsin
Throw some money at me and I'll do a study, cherry-pick the data and sway it anyway you want. Is it possible to find people that can make an unbiased study on anything these days. Unfortunately I think I know what the answer is already.
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#6209675 - 04/06/18 08:22 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: Dirty D]
walleye101 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 525
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Dirty D

I hope you get where I'm coming from.




Dirty D
I get where you are coming from but here is the story in Northern MN.

We have been way over the restoration goal for wolves for decades. Wolves have not "wiped out the deer herd", but they do in areas significantly deplete deer numbers. On the other hand, Moose have been in serious decline and really are in danger of being "wiped out". The fact that they we are no longer able to have a Moose season shows that wolves are in direct competition with hunters and in this case the wolf clearly won.

Back to deer though, from a preditor prey standpoint it would have been far better for the moose if the wolves had depleted the deer. As it is now, the deer are providing a prey buffer that keeps wolf density high even with a catistrophic decline in moose. With no decline in wolf abundance there is no predation relief for moose even at current low densities and they will continue to decline.

The reason folks distrust the "studies" is that MNDNR has for years been pointing to everything but wolves for the decline in moose, when there own data would suggest otherwise. It is only recently the some researchers are beginning to implicate high predation mortality on moose calves as the primary reason for the decline.

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#6210017 - 04/06/18 02:43 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
GROUSEWIT Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 274
Loc: 7mtns of CENTRAL PA
We have same biologist denial problem with pheasant restoration with uncontrolled avian predators in PA!

IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THE UNCONTROLLED PREDATORS!!!! Naw come on now!!!
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#6210169 - 04/06/18 05:59 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
Furvor Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 1246
Loc: Idaho Falls, ID
Quote:
I don't trust any wolf study done by a state agency. They will tell you anything to get you onboard with whatever the newest fad is.

Danny that reminds me of my college days many years ago. In an economics class at LSU Baton Rouge an economics professor said during summertime when school was out he travelled around the country doing feasibility studies for highway projects. He mentioned various economic factors he considered in each study. He said he added a factor in each study to get the result that state's legislature wanted. He said he had to do that in order to keep getting feasibility study jobs.

Stop to think about it, isn't that about the way USPS sets junk mail rates?


Edited by Furvor (04/06/18 06:04 PM)
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#6210228 - 04/06/18 07:00 PM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
danny clifton Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 11734
Loc: williamsburg ks
Anybody else remember when biologists were telling people coyotes don't prey on deer??????????????
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#6210662 - 04/07/18 08:41 AM Re: NTA e-mail about wolf delisting [Re: rpmartin]
Line Jumper Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/12
Posts: 364
Loc: Northern WI
Sent my e-mails, maybe we should start another thread to argue how we should manage them, but first we need them de-listed and managed by the individual States.

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