Well, Canvasback is NOT HAPPY!!!

Got up this Morning and went down in the Basement to turn the Breaker on for the Boiler. It was set at 65 last night, but the Temp read 75. Shouldn't fire up, but it did.. Constantly! Then I turned it off at the Thermostat. same thing. So, I shut it off in the Basement . Tonight after Supper, It was set to 70, but read 74. Bedrooms have water in the Radiators , but no heat. Same for the Bathroom. Living room and Office are the only radiators that have heat. Bled all the Radiators again tonight. Just water, no air in lines.


What the heck is causing this ? They have been out 5 times to repair a NEW BOILER!! NOT HAPPY !!

Are the radiators on a zoned manifold?

I don't understand. You say it is set for 70 bit reeds 74 . That means your t stat is satisfied and should not be calling .

Is the thermostat wired to the boiler or the pump? Most boilers maintain temp (or pressure if they’re steam) and the zone valves r pump is controled by the thermostat.

also is there an outdoor air reset. That uses an algorithm in the CPU to give you x amount of water temperature per x amount of degrees outside. it could also be locked out on outdoor air temperature because it is too warm

Bedrooms and bathroom all cold since last night. Thermostat is a programmable Honeywell thermostat on the wall. As to how it is wired, it is the same as the old Boiler. No outside air temp reader. When I turned the wall thermostat to the on position a few minutes ago, I went in the Living Room to check the Radiators. Even though I had the wall thermostat turned off all last night , the radiators in the Living Room were toasty warm. They should have been cold. Somehow, even with the wall Thermostat turned off, that Boiler is fireing up and heating the office and living room ; but not the bedrooms or the bathroom.

Might be the bladder tank full of gunk.

If the office and living room radiators are on the same zone, then their zone valve is probably stuck open, at least partially. Hot water continues to bleed through that zone, even though the thermostat told that valve to stay closed.

-NC

The little round pressure tank on the Boiler, or the Pressure tank for my water well?

It was set for 70, but read 74 . I had the wall Thermostat turned to the off position, but the boiler was still firing up. New batteries in the Thermostat.

are your wires for each thermostat crossed at the zone valves . try turning on the other thermostat and see if it brings on the opposite of Zone

If a normally closed valve is left open(happens at time of service) the a system will gravity heat(hot water rises rises and cool water sinks) giving warm heat when not called for by the thermostat. If a normally open valve is closed then you could get no heat when there is a call for it by the thermostat. happens a lot on service calls.

Canvasback, what were they there for the other 5 times and what did they tell you they do to the system? There are a few possibilities as to what is wrong as mentioned by the guys already. Let us know what you fins out.

Ok, this Boiler is playing games with me ! I cranked the wall Thermostat up to 72 Degrees. 30 Minutes later, The old American Radiator Cast Iron 1920 something Radiators are all good and HOT! Even the Bedrooms and the Bathroom Radiator! GOT Heat now !

Greenetrapper: Only one wall Thermostat in the House for the Boiler.

Is it an old t87f with a Mercury bulb? if it is the heat anticipator it needs to be set or changed out to a digital thermostat

Replaced a Tayco Circulator Pump 3 pumps burned out . Each lasting no more than 1 Month.

2 times the repairman came out because boiler would only fire up for 5 minutes , reach 196 and then shut down. Each time, they drained the system and did some adjusting of the Boiler.

The old red Flo Control valve , which is original to the house, that was giving the new boiler fits. Repairman left it in a permanent open position, so it would not burn out the Circulator pump again.

2nd last time repairman was here, he replaced that cracked copper pipe , drained and flushed out the whole hot water system twice. Boiler, radiators and all the pipes. Must have drained and pumped back in at least 500 gallons of water. Repairman wanted to flush as much stuff out of the old Cast Iron Pipes and Radiators , as he could. He also replaced some pressure part that maintains the water pressure in tank.


Last time repairman was here, They adjusted the electronic controller, lowered and straightened the Vent Pipe. Also cleaned up the bad solder job. There was a lot of solder that ran down the pipe that replaced the cracked pipe.

Brand new Honeywell 7 Day electronic Thermostat on the wall.

If you lived a bit closer I would stop over . I would have you straightened out in no time .

there's a parameter in those thermostats called installer setup. You can set a differential in a thermostats to allow your thermostat to have X amount of degrees before it will turn on plus or minus. a lot of times it is 3 that can be tightened up a bit

I had problems with that thermostat.Changed it out to a regular stat and fixed my heating cooling problems.

I'm not in the HVAC trade but I've de-bugged and repaired my share over the years. I design and build electronics, from very simple to very complex. When trying to understand and repair someone elses design, sometimes its best to strip it down and then slowly add components/features back, one by one, until something doesnt work right.

I dont know if you have a separate thermostat on every zone, but if you do, then I'd suggest unhooking them all. Let the radiators cool down. Then hook one up at a time, and confirm that its radiator(s) are working as expected. As a matter of fact, check them all- even the ones that shouldnt be effected by the test. You should come to a point where the zone being tested, isnt being controlled properly, then you can focus on it.

If you only have one digital/programmable thermostat, you should probably power it down (unhook it from all sources of power) and then re-connect, to re-boot it. Maybe reset to factory defaults, if its user manual explains how.

I have a 7-zone hydronic system and thats how I would begin, anyway.

-NC

can you post up a photo of your system? What kind of boiler is it?, model number and brand. You mention you have old cast iron radiators. Did they use rhomar system cleaner? Does the system have a strainer and a high efficiency air purger? does it have proper pumping away principles? 95 percent of problems with new systems are installer related.

Sounds like your boiler system is smarter (higher tech) than your service folks. Probably something simple but if they have not figured it out after 5 or more trips, sounds like it is above their pay grade.

If I understand correctly, you have 1 stat, 1 circulator and a flow control valve that is manually set to open due to it is sticking closed causing previous circulators to burn out. The open flow control valve is usually closed and opens when pressure from circulator pushed water through.......should be closed otherwise unless circulator has a built in one (IFC). The water feeder was likely replaced because it may have been sticking and not adding water when it was supposed to......but when the system is already up to pressure it should not be needed. By description of faults noted, the system is gravity feeding on off cycle so some radiators heat.....usually the closest to the boiler and supply header heat with out circulator. You usually won't have much air lock problems on a cast iron radiator system because they are high and capture the air while still allowing circulation. Modern installations are piped differently. Pictures would definitely be helpful.

I wanted to be sure I was clear, an open flow check will cause gravity heat......heat without a call from the thermostat.

It might not work, but, it looks pretty.

Was it designed by Italians?

Can you show picture of flow check and piping around boiler?

that amtrol air purger needs to have at least a 18 inch piece of straight pipe for it to work properly. I would relocate the pump to the supply side and bring the makeup water into the bottom of the air purger because that is the point of no pressure change, it appears that you system may be a monoflow system. If that is a filltrol tank, I would ditch that and go with a B&G pressure reducing valve and a number 30 tank. To be fair boilers were installed that way for years but newer methods work better.

This is piped according to older piping instructions, probably for ease of boiler change out for the installers. I am not a fan of that loop back on the supply piping where the expansion tank is.......in my opinion that is quite a bit of friction loss (pressure loss) to circulation. I believe that I would have eliminated that reverse bend in the piping.........but that what I would have done and does not mean it would not work properly. Also, I would have installed the circulator on the other side of the expansion tank, pumping away from the tank for the best circulation pressure on the circuit. I DO NOT want to pick apart the work of another HVAC person......just adding my 2 cents. I am curious to how the system is set up......such as 1 perimeter pipe with a supply and return from each radiator after the flow check?

Right you are RandyT!

I would have replaced that flow check......just because of age. It is like have new shoes but using old laces.

I would have too, but instead I would have probably used a Grundfos up15-58 pump with a built in check instead. In light of the old piping and radiators, I would have used a system cleaner, probably a rhomar product

Lennox GWB8-075E-3

I am no way a expert and this is probably not the problem but does it hurt the efficiency of the system to have that new smaller diameter copper pipe feeding into the bigger diameter steel pipe?

Or is it just deceiving on size of pipes?

My thinking is that might be a problem area for air filling the pipe and not bleeding off properly.

That old red flow control thing above the Boiler, is original to the house . House originally had a coal fired boiler with an indirect water heater that the Boiler would heat . They got rid of that after they switched to a gas fired boiler, and gas hot water heaters. The red flow control is the thing they set into a permenant open position, so the circulator pump would not burn out. That old flow control must be at least 100 years old.

I would have piped the supply straight up from the boiler then over towards where the flow check is. Then horizontally, I would have installed the expansion tank and feeder as Randy T has said. Then after the 90 elbow would go the circulator and flow check before connecting at the first cast 90 elbow. Isolation flanges on circulator and ball valve vertically above the boiler supply port. With a large supply main, there can be circulator short cycling due paid temperature changes as the cold in the main returns to the boiler.......just an observation.

The flow control is supposed to be closed to prevent gravity heating........that is its function. If it is not working correctly then it should be changed.......like on the service call that they decided to leave it open.

wonder how many btus the new boiler is, looks like 1 1/4 copper which is only good for around 130 thou btus. I'm not familar with that brand, it is probably made by a boiler manufacturer for lennox, maybe dunkirk. Beings it has cast iron radiators perhaps a bypass is needed at the boiler to prevent to cool of water coming back on the return. The nice thing about the grundfos up 15-58 circ is it is three speed and the speed could be adjusted for a 20 degree differential. I'm sure they will get to the bottom of the problem, it does them no good not to.

Randy T I agree on the boiler cleaner. They flushed a lot of water to try and achieve the same thing. The circulator with IFC I also agree.....the photo of the new circulator doesn't look like it has the sticker indicting it has one. 3 speed circulator might be a better option on this installation.

RandyT you have been around the block a time or two. A bypass is the usual way to temper the boiler water to prevent shock and circulator short cycling. well done!

Charles2 in my opinion the grundfos gives some options and with old radiators the system was probably filled with gunk. That in its self was probably hard on those other three pumps. usually when I change a boiler I replace everything with new.

Without a doubt there is build up in the older part of this system. The 3 speed circulator is a wise choice as is its placement in the supply main. The piping arrangement that is more straight along will also reduce the friction loss. The time of installation would have been an ideal time to address this so there would be minimum complaints and call backs.

agreed, 95 percent of new installation problems are installer created, hate to say it but I have been there. I learn the fastest by getting thunked along side of the head.

Me too! I would prefer to learn from the mistakes of others.......but my learning curve is too long!

my learning curve is straight up LOL, not so much now days though.

How long you been in this trade?

since 1983, I'm a master plumber, class b boiler installer and a mechanical contractor

Holy crap Randy. I thought I was a veteran with 20 years in this trade. but I was only four when you got in the trade Good for you. I hope my knees hold out that long

I was 18 when I got in the trade

I bought a honeywell 7 day last fall for my garage. It worked for a week and died. New batteries, and it would work for a few minutes. took it back to the store, and they said there was a problem with them. they had a whole box of them that had been returned.

Randy I thought you had a lot of experience by your responses. I worked with my Grandfather who was a master plumber in Phila in the 70s and I took Vo tech also. I started in 87 after 6 years in the Army and a couple of years trying to find my way. Been a pleasure conversing with you......you are a smart and knowledgeable man.

Greene Trapper, protect those knees and all of those valuable parts.........they need to last as long as possible.

Back to the original post.......Canvasback how your system operating? I would make another call to your HVAC company. I believe that you paid for a professional boiler change out that should guarantee proper and safe operation. I don't believe you are there yet.

Charles:

Since I raised the temp on the wall thermostat to 72, the Boiler is running good. Temp is staying at 72. Heat in all the Radiators. Will know tonight if it is still working good. Wall Thermostat is programmed to turn down to 65 Degrees at 11:30 PM

I told one of the repairmen, that there are less problems with a Wood Stove ! He came back with "Then you have to haul the wood in the house and clean the Chimney every year! "

I think that I would still put the call in to your installer and tell him what is going on. It still is not working as it should. I believe you will find that the gravity heat will persist in the same radiators as before, after tstat set back due to reasons discussed in the responses to your post. That open flowcheck needs to be addressed if no internal flowcheck exists............it doesn't appear there is one as there would be a IFC notice in the circulator. Just my opinion.

Until that repairman fixes this condition......tell him he needs to haul the wood and ash for you!

What is your closest city and how far from it?

thanks for the comments Charles2, it has been a pleasure. from your responses you are knowledgeable as well