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Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: waggler] #6226258
04/25/18 09:50 AM
04/25/18 09:50 AM
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Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
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Originally Posted By: waggler
^^^^^^^^^
I guess we're getting off the creation/evolution debate a little.

But the question you raise, "Isn't it clear from observation that mankind tends to gravitate toward immorality?" brings up a big question that divides people on both philosophical, political and religious issues.

1) The orthodox Judaeo-Christian belief that man is born with a sinful nature and is inherently bad/evil/corrupt/selfish etc.
OR
2) The humanist view that man is born basically good.

In broad generalities, conservatives hold to the first position (both politically and religiously) and liberals tend to hold to the second point of view.

As much as the humanist view sounds more pleasant and positive, when their principals and beliefs are put into action the results are generally pretty terrifying.

good points

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226260
04/25/18 09:52 AM
04/25/18 09:52 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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I think its dependent on the dice roll of dna and genes at conception. There are both Ted Bundy's and Mother Theresa's born and everything in between. Some of what defines a person they are born with and some is environment.

kart29, No. Mankind does not gravitate toward immorality. Only some individuals. Most humans are born with some empathy and avoid hurting others.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Creationism or evolution?pt [Re: James] #6226376
04/25/18 12:13 PM
04/25/18 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: James
Careful, Larry. You'll be accused of "playing the race card."

Jim


LOL James. I was just pointing out the relative acceptance of racism by all the hypocrites on here.

Jarhead


"Just as the deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer." Aldo Leopold
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: danny clifton] #6226378
04/25/18 12:14 PM
04/25/18 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
PA why not just say you don't know why your God instills different morality in different cultures? If your god was the source of morality what difference would it make if they had heard of Jesus? They would still gravitate to the same morality.


Not if they actually follow his teachings. Why would I say that God instills different forms of morality? That doesn't even make sense. Morality is not morality if it can be manipulated into whatever the culture wants.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: waggler] #6226500
04/25/18 03:23 PM
04/25/18 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: waggler
^^^^^^^^^
I guess we're getting off the creation/evolution debate a little.

But the question you raise, "Isn't it clear from observation that mankind tends to gravitate toward immorality?" brings up a big question that divides people on both philosophical, political and religious issues.

1) The orthodox Judaeo-Christian belief that man is born with a sinful nature and is inherently bad/evil/corrupt/selfish etc.
OR
2) The humanist view that man is born basically good.

In broad generalities, conservatives hold to the first position (both politically and religiously) and liberals tend to hold to the second point of view.

As much as the humanist view sounds more pleasant and positive, when their principals and beliefs are put into action the results are generally pretty terrifying.



Humanists I know believe that man is the highest form of animal. By their actions, some animal rights people believe this and even believe that some animals have a higher form of worth than some humans.


I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: danny clifton] #6226503
04/25/18 03:27 PM
04/25/18 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
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Hancock Co., Indiana
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
kart29, No. Mankind does not gravitate toward immorality. Only some individuals. Most humans are born with some empathy and avoid hurting others.


Well sure. I didn't mean to imply that everyone is entirely evil all the time. I'm certain there are many forces restraining man's natural inclination toward evil - personal conscience, government and laws, societal pressures, love, etc. But in general I see myself and most people constantly tempted by our own passions to coveting, lust, anger, hatred, envy, etc. Some people are less effective at controlling those passions than others. But I think we are all subject to that inclination to a substantial degree.

I know I never had to teach my sons to be angry, covetous, dishonest, or selfish. They came by that quite naturally without any intentional encouragement from their mother or me. Teaching them to control those natural passions is my job as a parent. But I know those things are wrong. And I know why they are wrong.

But maybe your kids were different than mine.


Last edited by Kart29; 04/25/18 03:32 PM.

What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: Jarhead620] #6226509
04/25/18 03:36 PM
04/25/18 03:36 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted By: Jarhead620
Originally Posted By: James
Careful, Larry. You'll be accused of "playing the race card."

Jim


LOL James. I was just pointing out the relative acceptance of racism by all the hypocrites on here.

Jarhead


What was racist about it?


-Goofy-
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226605
04/25/18 05:23 PM
04/25/18 05:23 PM
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williamsburg ks
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Nope no different Kart. Some kids can't be taught because they have no empathy. They can learn rules of conduct but don't ever understand the why. If they think they wont be discovered they have no problem hurting another. Some kids are never really taught. Grow up in an environment where hurt someone before they hurt you is a good survival tactic.

I believe we have developed morality out of empathy for others and a need to live and work together so that we all benefit. 100,000 years ago killing a huge bear took a whole clan. Everybodys kids were safer and everybody ate good. We developed strategies to make life easier and better.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226609
04/25/18 05:37 PM
04/25/18 05:37 PM
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God created all things. Seen and unseen. Colossians 1:16

Whether this took 1 day or billions of years makes no difference to me.

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: Kart29] #6226659
04/25/18 06:47 PM
04/25/18 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Kart29
Originally Posted By: danny clifton
kart29, No. Mankind does not gravitate toward immorality. Only some individuals. Most humans are born with some empathy and avoid hurting others.


Well sure. I didn't mean to imply that everyone is entirely evil all the time. I'm certain there are many forces restraining man's natural inclination toward evil - personal conscience, government and laws, societal pressures, love, etc. But in general I see myself and most people constantly tempted by our own passions to coveting, lust, anger, hatred, envy, etc. Some people are less effective at controlling those passions than others. But I think we are all subject to that inclination to a substantial degree.

I know I never had to teach my sons to be angry, covetous, dishonest, or selfish. They came by that quite naturally without any intentional encouragement from their mother or me. Teaching them to control those natural passions is my job as a parent. But I know those things are wrong. And I know why they are wrong.

But maybe your kids were different than mine.



Ain't that the truth. Just wait until you have teenagers if you don't already and you'll certainly see the basic selfishness of human nature.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: glf] #6226775
04/25/18 09:27 PM
04/25/18 09:27 PM
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James Offline
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Originally Posted By: glf
God created all things. Seen and unseen. Colossians 1:16

Whether this took 1 day or billions of years makes no difference to me.


So it also shouldn't matter to you whether God used evolution to create the myriad of life on earth, as opposed to just snapping his fingers six times in six days?

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226807
04/25/18 10:01 PM
04/25/18 10:01 PM
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Almost like a child learning how to make first a simple single cell, the playing with that and expanding the creative ability to make more and more complex organisms, culminating in the creation of woman?

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226810
04/25/18 10:03 PM
04/25/18 10:03 PM
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James Offline
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And once God saw woman, he was so horrified at what he'd done that he quit making new life forms.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226811
04/25/18 10:04 PM
04/25/18 10:04 PM
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Is greed immoral? Isn't that a basic survival skill?

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: James] #6226812
04/25/18 10:06 PM
04/25/18 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: James
And once God saw woman, he was so horrified at what he'd done that he quit making new life forms.

Jim
Either that or admitted that perfection could not be improved on? smile

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6226935
04/26/18 01:19 AM
04/26/18 01:19 AM
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Well, I've learned a lot from this thread I started. I may not have an answer as to creationism vs evolution but I'm humbled by what I have learned - there are heck of a lot of folks on this forum that are way better read than I am. The critical thinking skills of some of you all (on both sides of the debate) just impressed the heck out of me. The way most of the arguments were clearly articulated is enviable. 15 pages and no one called anyone else a rotten son of a gun, to be honest I didn't think about how controversial this subject was until I started reading the posts, then I thought 'Oh,oh, what have I done'. I'm pretty honest if naive about certain things,(I'm mentally a 'how things work' guy) if I ask a question I want an honest answer from your perspective, no hidden agenda just looking for opinions and view points to think about. I am shocked when I ask something I don't have an answer to and someone reacts in a manner that indicates I have personally affronted them and their beliefs. Anyhow, you all have once again impressed me. Thank you all. One gentleman pm'd me basically saying (at least to me) 'remember the face of your father', a reference to a well used line in several books which in this case has a very personal meaning. You know who you are and I thank you.


Not as bad as I could be, not as good as I should be.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6227213
04/26/18 11:42 AM
04/26/18 11:42 AM
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There is no point in trying to even imagine the attributes of God; for man it's impossible. The vastness of God is beyond mind boggling. We are not capable of coming close to understanding his nature. All of this is speculation. It's fun, but meaningless.


I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6227246
04/26/18 12:36 PM
04/26/18 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: glf
God created all things. Seen and unseen. Colossians 1:16

Whether this took 1 day or billions of years makes no difference to me.


So it also shouldn't matter to you whether God used evolution to create the myriad of life on earth, as opposed to just snapping his fingers six times in six days?

Jim
__

It does not matter to me.

I don't know how any scientist can look at the complexity of any living thing and think that life could be something random.

Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: harleydparts] #6227251
04/26/18 12:45 PM
04/26/18 12:45 PM
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I have to believe it was 6 literal days, because that's what God said it was. (Hebrew "yom"- literal day, especially when used with an ordinal number). If it wasn't 6 literal days, either God is a liar, or what He wrote in the Book was a lie.

Interesting how no one believes 6 day creation with 1 day of rest, yet have no plausible explanation (other than creation) of what we observe a thing called a "week".......

A "day" is a complete rotation on axis.
A "month" is a lunar revolution around the earth (until the Caesar's started messing with it).
A "year" is a revolution around the sun.

What is a "week" correlated to?

Last edited by RKG; 04/26/18 12:46 PM.
Re: Creationism or evolution? [Re: RKG] #6227291
04/26/18 01:57 PM
04/26/18 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: RKG
I have to believe it was 6 literal days, because that's what God said it was. (Hebrew "yom"- literal day, especially when used with an ordinal number). If it wasn't 6 literal days, either God is a liar, or what He wrote in the Book was a lie.

Interesting how no one believes 6 day creation with 1 day of rest, yet have no plausible explanation (other than creation) of what we observe a thing called a "week".......

A "day" is a complete rotation on axis.
A "month" is a lunar revolution around the earth (until the Caesar's started messing with it).
A "year" is a revolution around the sun.

What is a "week" correlated to?


Have you read 2Peter Chapter 3, V8-9 From the Vulgate Edition: "But one thing beloved, you must keep in mind, that with the Lord a day counts as a thousand years, and a thousand years counts as a day."


I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
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