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Hand-loaders, I have a problem #6222182
04/20/18 06:18 AM
04/20/18 06:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
J
James Offline OP
"Minka"
James  Offline OP
"Minka"
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
I load for more than a dozen rifle cartridges, and can always seat the bullet without crimping. Neck tension alone is enough to hold the bullet in place.

Except when I load for my .300 Win Mag. About one in four of the loaded rounds come out with the bullets loose enough to fall into the case partway. At this point, the bullet can be drawn out of the case with fingers alone.

The .300 WM is the only round I have to crimp to be sure the bullet will hold. The Lee Factory Crimp die does a pretty good job, but I'd rather not crimp.

Could the expander ball on my 30-year old RCBS die be a few thousandths of an inch too large? Or am I doing something wrong?

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222184
04/20/18 06:24 AM
04/20/18 06:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
I have the same problem and solution. I don't think its your die. I noticed it with cartridges in the magazine. Recoil seating the bullets deeper with every shot. Never tried just pushing or pulling on any but never had that problem with an 06. Hard to believe a couple hundred fps would increase recoil enough to cause that. I don't understand the whys but something is different with 300 win mag.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222186
04/20/18 06:29 AM
04/20/18 06:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
"Minka"
James  Offline OP
"Minka"
J

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
Well, this happens with rounds that have never sat in a magazine, only just carried in the pocket or plastic cartridge case.

The .300 WM is prone to the issue because it has a short neck, shorter even than caliber if I recall right.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222193
04/20/18 06:39 AM
04/20/18 06:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 555
WV
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garymc Offline
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WV
I have not experienced any recoil setback issues with 300 wby, 7mm rem, or 8mm rem Mag. I
Check all of my hunting rounds with some thumb pressure and then a double check with calipers before boxing. Bullet setback in the magazine could be a recipe for a bad over pressure situation if sets back too far. How many firings do you have on your brass? If the brass has several firings on it could be getting work hardened which would affect the spring back of the brass after the expander is drawn back through the neck, but typically you will start seeing neck cracks. (The solution for work hardening would be annealing which I typically do after 3 firings.
If you have another set of dies in something 30 cal like 30/06 or 308 you could compare expander ball dimensions if worn I bet the manufacturer would send you an expander ball or two under warranty even after 30 years.

Last edited by garymc; 04/20/18 06:40 AM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222209
04/20/18 07:06 AM
04/20/18 07:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 380
Carlisle, PA
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trap-alaska Offline
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Carlisle, PA
If the expander ball was worn, it would be smaller and neck tension would increase. Measure it and then order one .002 smaller and see if that helps. I know some of the old .308 dies had a .311 expander for the European 7.62 rifles that were imported. If you reload (or have a local buddy that does) for another 30-caliber, try that expander ball.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222218
04/20/18 07:23 AM
04/20/18 07:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 398
Indiana
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fishnhunts Offline
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Indiana
I think I would try replacing the expander ball and rod. Is it possible the rod that the expander ball sits on is bent slightly causing the neck to be opened up slightly more than it should?

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222221
04/20/18 07:34 AM
04/20/18 07:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,028
West Cent IL
illinideer Offline
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illinideer  Offline
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Posts: 1,028
West Cent IL
I have taken the expander out and used fine sand paper to to clean it up and take it down a little. Plus RCBS has excellent customer service they have sent me replacement parts for some of my reloading stuff that was passed down to me from my late uncle. NO charge and a thank you can't beat that.
Justin




Coyote 5 Badger 1
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Retired SMSGT IL ANG 183 Fighter Wing
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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222225
04/20/18 07:40 AM
04/20/18 07:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
Columbia, MO
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Denny Russell Offline
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Columbia, MO
Maybe the resizing die isn't squeezing the neck down far enough when resized. Resize the brass without the expander and check if the neck size is smaller than the expander ball. Maybe the neck material is thin on this brass and the resizing doesn't result in a small enough inner diameter.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222235
04/20/18 07:57 AM
04/20/18 07:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 149
Northern MI
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paradork Offline
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Northern MI
Look at your brass. Had similar issues last year. Brass quality has really gone down hill. It's really springy. Winchester has been the worst for me. Had a gun that was 3 shots in one hole, not clover leaf. 3 shots. 308 hole. Issues came up eventually tracked it down to the brass not uniformly sizing resulting in inconsistent neck tension. Switched to Papua brass. Problem solved.


Don't do anything you don't want to explain to the paramedics. I do appreciate a good story tho.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: paradork] #6222245
04/20/18 08:08 AM
04/20/18 08:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,042
SE Kansas
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K52 Offline
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SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: paradork
Look at your brass. Had similar issues last year. Brass quality has really gone down hill. It's really springy. Winchester has been the worst for me. Had a gun that was 3 shots in one hole, not clover leaf. 3 shots. 308 hole. Issues came up eventually tracked it down to the brass not uniformly sizing resulting in inconsistent neck tension. Switched to Papua brass. Problem solved.


I'm sure para meant Lapua brass. It's pricey but I'll bet it will solve your problem, not all brass is created equal.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222248
04/20/18 08:11 AM
04/20/18 08:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,852
meadowview, Virginia
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EdP Offline
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meadowview, Virginia
James, I think you identified the key difference WRT .300 WM, that being the very short neck, and yet I load my .270 with the bullets so far out that there is well less than one diameter in contact with the neck and have no problem. Does the problem occur the first time new brass is loaded (or the 1st reload of factory rounds,) or does it take several reloadings before it appears? That would point to work hardening and the fix would be to anneal.

You said you reload for a dozen or more cartridges. Is not one of them another .30 cal? If so, check the expander ball diameter vs. the expander in your .300 WM die. Also check for a crud build-up or burr on the expander ball.

Denny Russell suggested your die may not be resizing adequately and to check the neck on a case resized with the expander removed. You should be able to feel if the ball is expanding the neck. The expander is the only thing creating resistance on the return stroke.

This is an interesting topic. Please let us know what you find.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222252
04/20/18 08:17 AM
04/20/18 08:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
My 300 has never had a factory round in it since the factory proof fired it. Happened with new dies and brass when i was still experimenting with loads and bullets. That short neck explantion sounds plausible


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222262
04/20/18 08:34 AM
04/20/18 08:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,852
meadowview, Virginia
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EdP Offline
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meadowview, Virginia
James, the expander ball on my 30+ y/o RCBS 30-06 die measured .3065".

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222280
04/20/18 08:53 AM
04/20/18 08:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 613
Northern Missouri
Northmocats Offline
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Northmocats  Offline
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Northern Missouri
Might need to Anneal some brass , sometimes they get hard enough and wont size that great..
I had this same problem with an Older 257 Roberts.
You can also Order an undersized Mandrel for your lee die if you keep running into problems.
Let us know if you get it sorted out.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222301
04/20/18 09:12 AM
04/20/18 09:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,567
Saskatchewan, Canada
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Sask hunter Offline
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Saskatchewan, Canada
Shouldn’t need to crimp it. I have never had to crimp my 300 or my 338. Hopefully one of the suggestions above gets it fixed for you

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222320
04/20/18 09:36 AM
04/20/18 09:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 723
Hilton, NY
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Paul D. Heppner Offline
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Hilton, NY
Without having your brass and dies in hand I can only surmise that your brass has been resized enough times to cause your necks to be thinned to the point where there is not enough material to maintain proper tension. The expander ball is the worst culprit. Every time the case is sized down and the ball is drawn through the neck it is stretched. It is then trimmed to length. This stretching moves material which is then removed. I personally use an "M" die in a separate operation after sizing. It is a mandrel that is pushed into the case neck. I usually only need to trim on about the third or fourth firing. I have been using a lot of the same 300 WM brass since '88. Most if not all the cases I lose is due to split necks. I never got into annealing. My son just got his own 300 that we are starting to work with in preparation for a moose hunt in Newfoundland.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222379
04/20/18 11:24 AM
04/20/18 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
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Hancock Co., Indiana
Are you sure you are getting all the resizing lube out of the inside of the case neck before seating the bullet?

It should be easy enough to mic the diameter of the expander ball and see if it too big. It wouldn't take too much effort to polish it down in diameter if needed.

I wonder if your seating die is start the bullet a little crooked and the bullet is stretching the neck a little out of round on the bullet's way in. Is there any excess runout in the bullet after being seated?


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222464
04/20/18 02:20 PM
04/20/18 02:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 613
Northern Missouri
Northmocats Offline
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Northern Missouri
Does the problem still occur with New Brass or have you tried some? Those belted magnums can be rough on brass, forgot to mention that in my post above..

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222510
04/20/18 03:39 PM
04/20/18 03:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
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hippie Offline
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pa
Common sense plays a HUGE roll in reloading, and more importantly understanding your problems.

Guys can give you every possible answer to every possible problem, but which problem do you have?

Does it feel like your expanding ball gives you resistance, as in you down sized your case neck enough, to start with?

If so, did you measure your resized case? (expanded it too far?)

You should be able to feel your problem, and if not, measure and find it that way.

Last edited by hippie; 04/20/18 03:40 PM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222512
04/20/18 03:43 PM
04/20/18 03:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
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hippie Offline
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If all that is good, are you seating your bullet too deep?
(going beyond the shank onto the ogive?)

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