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Hand-loaders, I have a problem #6222182
04/20/18 06:18 AM
04/20/18 06:18 AM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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I load for more than a dozen rifle cartridges, and can always seat the bullet without crimping. Neck tension alone is enough to hold the bullet in place.

Except when I load for my .300 Win Mag. About one in four of the loaded rounds come out with the bullets loose enough to fall into the case partway. At this point, the bullet can be drawn out of the case with fingers alone.

The .300 WM is the only round I have to crimp to be sure the bullet will hold. The Lee Factory Crimp die does a pretty good job, but I'd rather not crimp.

Could the expander ball on my 30-year old RCBS die be a few thousandths of an inch too large? Or am I doing something wrong?

Jim


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"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222184
04/20/18 06:24 AM
04/20/18 06:24 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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I have the same problem and solution. I don't think its your die. I noticed it with cartridges in the magazine. Recoil seating the bullets deeper with every shot. Never tried just pushing or pulling on any but never had that problem with an 06. Hard to believe a couple hundred fps would increase recoil enough to cause that. I don't understand the whys but something is different with 300 win mag.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222186
04/20/18 06:29 AM
04/20/18 06:29 AM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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Well, this happens with rounds that have never sat in a magazine, only just carried in the pocket or plastic cartridge case.

The .300 WM is prone to the issue because it has a short neck, shorter even than caliber if I recall right.

Jim


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"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222193
04/20/18 06:39 AM
04/20/18 06:39 AM
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I have not experienced any recoil setback issues with 300 wby, 7mm rem, or 8mm rem Mag. I
Check all of my hunting rounds with some thumb pressure and then a double check with calipers before boxing. Bullet setback in the magazine could be a recipe for a bad over pressure situation if sets back too far. How many firings do you have on your brass? If the brass has several firings on it could be getting work hardened which would affect the spring back of the brass after the expander is drawn back through the neck, but typically you will start seeing neck cracks. (The solution for work hardening would be annealing which I typically do after 3 firings.
If you have another set of dies in something 30 cal like 30/06 or 308 you could compare expander ball dimensions if worn I bet the manufacturer would send you an expander ball or two under warranty even after 30 years.

Last edited by garymc; 04/20/18 06:40 AM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222209
04/20/18 07:06 AM
04/20/18 07:06 AM
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Carlisle, PA
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If the expander ball was worn, it would be smaller and neck tension would increase. Measure it and then order one .002 smaller and see if that helps. I know some of the old .308 dies had a .311 expander for the European 7.62 rifles that were imported. If you reload (or have a local buddy that does) for another 30-caliber, try that expander ball.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222218
04/20/18 07:23 AM
04/20/18 07:23 AM
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Indiana
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I think I would try replacing the expander ball and rod. Is it possible the rod that the expander ball sits on is bent slightly causing the neck to be opened up slightly more than it should?

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222221
04/20/18 07:34 AM
04/20/18 07:34 AM
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West Cent IL
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I have taken the expander out and used fine sand paper to to clean it up and take it down a little. Plus RCBS has excellent customer service they have sent me replacement parts for some of my reloading stuff that was passed down to me from my late uncle. NO charge and a thank you can't beat that.
Justin




Coyote 5 Badger 1
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Grinners All of them
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Retired SMSGT IL ANG 183 Fighter Wing
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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222225
04/20/18 07:40 AM
04/20/18 07:40 AM
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Columbia, MO
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Maybe the resizing die isn't squeezing the neck down far enough when resized. Resize the brass without the expander and check if the neck size is smaller than the expander ball. Maybe the neck material is thin on this brass and the resizing doesn't result in a small enough inner diameter.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222235
04/20/18 07:57 AM
04/20/18 07:57 AM
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Look at your brass. Had similar issues last year. Brass quality has really gone down hill. It's really springy. Winchester has been the worst for me. Had a gun that was 3 shots in one hole, not clover leaf. 3 shots. 308 hole. Issues came up eventually tracked it down to the brass not uniformly sizing resulting in inconsistent neck tension. Switched to Papua brass. Problem solved.


Don't do anything you don't want to explain to the paramedics. I do appreciate a good story tho.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: paradork] #6222245
04/20/18 08:08 AM
04/20/18 08:08 AM
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SE Kansas
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Originally Posted By: paradork
Look at your brass. Had similar issues last year. Brass quality has really gone down hill. It's really springy. Winchester has been the worst for me. Had a gun that was 3 shots in one hole, not clover leaf. 3 shots. 308 hole. Issues came up eventually tracked it down to the brass not uniformly sizing resulting in inconsistent neck tension. Switched to Papua brass. Problem solved.


I'm sure para meant Lapua brass. It's pricey but I'll bet it will solve your problem, not all brass is created equal.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222248
04/20/18 08:11 AM
04/20/18 08:11 AM
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James, I think you identified the key difference WRT .300 WM, that being the very short neck, and yet I load my .270 with the bullets so far out that there is well less than one diameter in contact with the neck and have no problem. Does the problem occur the first time new brass is loaded (or the 1st reload of factory rounds,) or does it take several reloadings before it appears? That would point to work hardening and the fix would be to anneal.

You said you reload for a dozen or more cartridges. Is not one of them another .30 cal? If so, check the expander ball diameter vs. the expander in your .300 WM die. Also check for a crud build-up or burr on the expander ball.

Denny Russell suggested your die may not be resizing adequately and to check the neck on a case resized with the expander removed. You should be able to feel if the ball is expanding the neck. The expander is the only thing creating resistance on the return stroke.

This is an interesting topic. Please let us know what you find.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222252
04/20/18 08:17 AM
04/20/18 08:17 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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My 300 has never had a factory round in it since the factory proof fired it. Happened with new dies and brass when i was still experimenting with loads and bullets. That short neck explantion sounds plausible


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222262
04/20/18 08:34 AM
04/20/18 08:34 AM
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James, the expander ball on my 30+ y/o RCBS 30-06 die measured .3065".

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222280
04/20/18 08:53 AM
04/20/18 08:53 AM
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Northern Missouri
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Might need to Anneal some brass , sometimes they get hard enough and wont size that great..
I had this same problem with an Older 257 Roberts.
You can also Order an undersized Mandrel for your lee die if you keep running into problems.
Let us know if you get it sorted out.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222301
04/20/18 09:12 AM
04/20/18 09:12 AM
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Sask hunter Offline
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Shouldn’t need to crimp it. I have never had to crimp my 300 or my 338. Hopefully one of the suggestions above gets it fixed for you

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222320
04/20/18 09:36 AM
04/20/18 09:36 AM
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Without having your brass and dies in hand I can only surmise that your brass has been resized enough times to cause your necks to be thinned to the point where there is not enough material to maintain proper tension. The expander ball is the worst culprit. Every time the case is sized down and the ball is drawn through the neck it is stretched. It is then trimmed to length. This stretching moves material which is then removed. I personally use an "M" die in a separate operation after sizing. It is a mandrel that is pushed into the case neck. I usually only need to trim on about the third or fourth firing. I have been using a lot of the same 300 WM brass since '88. Most if not all the cases I lose is due to split necks. I never got into annealing. My son just got his own 300 that we are starting to work with in preparation for a moose hunt in Newfoundland.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222379
04/20/18 11:24 AM
04/20/18 11:24 AM
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Are you sure you are getting all the resizing lube out of the inside of the case neck before seating the bullet?

It should be easy enough to mic the diameter of the expander ball and see if it too big. It wouldn't take too much effort to polish it down in diameter if needed.

I wonder if your seating die is start the bullet a little crooked and the bullet is stretching the neck a little out of round on the bullet's way in. Is there any excess runout in the bullet after being seated?


What from Christ that soul can sever,
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None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222464
04/20/18 02:20 PM
04/20/18 02:20 PM
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Northern Missouri
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Does the problem still occur with New Brass or have you tried some? Those belted magnums can be rough on brass, forgot to mention that in my post above..

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222510
04/20/18 03:39 PM
04/20/18 03:39 PM
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Common sense plays a HUGE roll in reloading, and more importantly understanding your problems.

Guys can give you every possible answer to every possible problem, but which problem do you have?

Does it feel like your expanding ball gives you resistance, as in you down sized your case neck enough, to start with?

If so, did you measure your resized case? (expanded it too far?)

You should be able to feel your problem, and if not, measure and find it that way.

Last edited by hippie; 04/20/18 03:40 PM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222512
04/20/18 03:43 PM
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If all that is good, are you seating your bullet too deep?
(going beyond the shank onto the ogive?)

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222514
04/20/18 03:45 PM
04/20/18 03:45 PM
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Happens to me after I have reloaded a case several times. Usually I just throw that case away.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222582
04/20/18 06:00 PM
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Call the makers of your dies, they have techs to answer questions.


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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222651
04/20/18 08:23 PM
04/20/18 08:23 PM
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When all is said and done it can ONLY BE ONE OF TWO THINGS; either your sizing die is not reducing the neck diameter enough OR the expander ball is expanding the sized neck to much. If you neck turn your brass inside or out to much this will reduce neck tension. Firing a case and sizing multiple times makes the neck wall thickness Thicker Not thiner.
Remove the decapping rod size a case deburr the case mouth an measure the inside of the neck. .306 or smaller.
Measure the expander ball .306 .3065 is about right. All the rest is unimportant.
I have never anealed a piece of brass EVER. I have brass that has been loaded and trimmed so many times outside neck turning is required to avoid excessive bullet pull when chambered. The ONLY ammunition I crimp are revolver pistol cartridges (roll crimp) simi auto pistol (taper crimp) and shotshells. I don't do tubular magazine center fire or those would be crimped. Sounds like you need to review the basics.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222684
04/20/18 09:07 PM
04/20/18 09:07 PM
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cmcf, why have you never annealed? It seems to me that annealing helps maintain consistent neck tension. Not between rounds in a batch, they should be the same if loaded and fired the same number of times, but batch to batch. Is that not important to you? What about case life, not that cases are all that expensive unless you are a high volume shooter.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222725
04/20/18 10:10 PM
04/20/18 10:10 PM
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Short neck of 300 Winchester might be to blame. I have had magnum and 3006 rounds that recoil caused bullets to slip backward in their case (while in the magazine). I do not have a 300 Win but I do have the WSM 300. No problems so far with those reloads.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222759
04/20/18 11:04 PM
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Edp;I have never seen the need for anealing. And from my research on the subject temp control is critical to get a consistent result. I have seen neck splitting in straight walled MAGNUM PISTOL cases that required a heavy roll crimp. I have never had a bottle neck rifle case split. BUT I only fl resize once, when brass is new unprimed. I have some. 270 win. That have been fired a dozen times and more. I neck size only and use the rifle the ammo is to be used in as a guage to set my sizing dies for a snug fit in the chamber. This minimizes the amount the brass is worked and the amount of stretching. As I posted before I have cases that I had to turn the outside of their necks because the wall thickness was such that it was TIGHT when a bullet was seated and the round was chambered. For what it's worth, The late Richard Mcquisten, a very dear friend, won the National Hunter Bench Rest Championship in 2008 with a rifle be built. We discussed the pros and cons of anealing rifle brass. His position was use good brass. Turn the neck when necessary, when it became necessary again throw it away.
With belted mag cartridges I consider five reloads to be maximum. This is due to incipient case head separation not brittleness. PS I have a .300 win.mag and have never had a problem with insufficient bullet pull, (neck tension).
I only load 180 gr. Sierra spitzer pro hunters flat base. They have been hammered by the front of the magazine box till the soft points were well flattened and no movement.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222838
04/21/18 05:31 AM
04/21/18 05:31 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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I tried neck sizing my 22 250 cases. When your in a pasture checking traps, spot a coyote running off, its time to pick up the rifle, rack the bolt and load it. It aint that easy. They fit tight. Don't just slide right in. Accuracy improves but not enough to be the deciding factor on whether or not a coyote gets pelted. Groups the size of a quarter reduced to size of a nickel. Not worth the effort for hunting IMO. brass life I've no doubt is better. Guess we all make choices. I'm going to full length size and crimp my 300 win mag. Shoots accurately, loads easily, no bullets seating deeper in the magazine.

P.S. never heard of annealing till I read it on TMan. Never been a problem not doing it and I aint gonna fix what aint broke.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222873
04/21/18 06:48 AM
04/21/18 06:48 AM
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anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222880
04/21/18 07:07 AM
04/21/18 07:07 AM
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danny clifton Online content
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what happens if you don't rr?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222909
04/21/18 08:04 AM
04/21/18 08:04 AM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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The bullets unseat with new, unfired, once-fired, and more-than-once fired cases.

On both Norma and WW cases.

No, I'm not seating the bullets crooked or past the ogive. I use a Forster Ultra bullet seater die, and run-out is excellent.

Thanks for all the other comments. I've never annealed in the past, but I don't reload rifle cases more than three or four times.

Jim


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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222935
04/21/18 08:38 AM
04/21/18 08:38 AM
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Given that the problem exists with new, unfired brass, that seems to me to point to your expander, as you originally suspected. You can measure it and compare with my 30-06 RCBS expander measurement of .3065".

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: Ridge Runner1960] #6222969
04/21/18 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ridge Runner1960
anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR



NEW UNFIRED! WORK HARDENED??
Them lil suckers must be working out in the box while it's still on the shelf!
HaaaaaHaaaa yea right.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223046
04/21/18 11:21 AM
04/21/18 11:21 AM
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James said, about 1 in four does it.

That part is hard to explain.

Sounds random, with all types of brass. If sizing the brass all "feels" the same and mic's good, put the mic to your bullets. I've never had a bad batch, but ya never know.

Last edited by hippie; 04/21/18 11:30 AM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223368
04/21/18 08:31 PM
04/21/18 08:31 PM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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Thanks for all the suggestions. It's happened with more than one batch and brand of bullets (both Nosler and Swift).

The idea of comparing the expander ball measurement to the expander ball on a .30-06 is excellent. I happen to load for that round too, and have an '06 die set on the shelf. I'll have to mic both balls when I get the chance. Thanks for your own measurement, Ed.

Jim


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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: danny clifton] #6223479
04/21/18 10:26 PM
04/21/18 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
what happens if you don't rr?

It springs back, ya lose neck tension. Brass is made of copper and zinc, copper softens when annealed and gets hard and springy when worked, I anneal every 4-5 loadings, brass will last many loadings if ya take care of it and don't run high enough pressures to lose the pockets.
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: cmcf] #6223486
04/21/18 10:29 PM
04/21/18 10:29 PM
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eastern WV
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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Originally Posted By: cmcf
Originally Posted By: Ridge Runner1960
anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR



NEW UNFIRED! WORK HARDENED??
Them lil suckers must be working out in the box while it's still on the shelf!
HaaaaaHaaaa yea right.

perhaps a bad batch or improperly annealed from the factory, but its a brass problem, not anything in the loading process
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223500
04/21/18 10:41 PM
04/21/18 10:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
"Minka"
James  Offline OP
"Minka"
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
It's happened with three different batches of brass, two from Win and one from Norma.

It's got me befuddled. Doesn't happen with any other cartridge I load, from .22-250 to .416 Rem and .45-70. That's why I think it may be something to do with the die or expander ball.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223535
04/21/18 11:45 PM
04/21/18 11:45 PM
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South Dakota
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Rammer Offline
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I had a bad batch of 243 brass made by Winchester many years ago with this same problem. I started doing a slight crimp on everything I load since then, and I haven’t looked back. To me, crimping, is a good insurance policy.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223661
04/22/18 08:28 AM
04/22/18 08:28 AM
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Hilton, NY
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Paul D. Heppner Online content
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Starting to sound like you might have a die set that is right on the edge of being out of spec. How old are the dies and how long have you been using them? Did you get the set new or used? New brass does or should have a tolerance spec. Try to get a standard micrometer and a tubing Micrometer to check and compare the neck wall thickness of your brass (new unfired or once fired) to get a handle on any inconsistencies. You could have an issue with a die that has a neck diameter that is large and some of the brass is on the small side. Out of spec dies are not common. I have only seen one set that I can remember, a set of 223 RCBS. The showed the same problem you are having.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223863
04/22/18 01:37 PM
04/22/18 01:37 PM
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Posts: 7,423
Blue Creek, Ohio
Hal Offline
"old windy fartbag"
Hal  Offline
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Blue Creek, Ohio
glue


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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223864
04/22/18 01:47 PM
04/22/18 01:47 PM
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hippie Offline
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Or a different operator.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223896
04/22/18 02:29 PM
04/22/18 02:29 PM
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carolina, Alabama
The Possum Man Offline
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If you will call rcbs the rep will talk you through the whole process and maybe help you narrow down the problem if it is the dies. Then they will replace whatever it is free of charge. I had a problem with a seating plug and the polymer tip on some barnes bullets on the 300 blk. They sent me a new and polished seating plug. Have also had them replace several parts on hand me down dies from my uncle. They really have good customer service.


"If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough"
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: The Possum Man] #6223975
04/22/18 03:55 PM
04/22/18 03:55 PM
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Posts: 7,423
Blue Creek, Ohio
Hal Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Possum Man
If you will call rcbs the rep will talk you through the whole process and maybe help you narrow down the problem if it is the dies. Then they will replace whatever it is free of charge. I had a problem with a seating plug and the polymer tip on some barnes bullets on the 300 blk. They sent me a new and polished seating plug. Have also had them replace several parts on hand me down dies from my uncle. They really have good customer service.


Or you could call Elmer, and have him send you some of his glue.


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