I have kind of formulated a theory in the past couple of years on why there is so few fox in my area...
I may be way off, but I thought i'd run it by some of you.

Most of us are experiencing rising coyote populations, which is undoubtedly the main culprit , but how exactly is that affecting the fox?
Are they catching the fox and killing them?
Are they harrasing the heck out of them until they move out of the area?
Why do some states seem to have a good population of both while others have the coyotes just take over?



I don't know for sure, but I have a hunch the biggest problem is high pup mortality due to poor coyote resistant denning sites.
Poor denning, meaning... Dens that can be easily accessed by coyotes.
I really believe any coyote that finds a den full of fox pups will go in and kill them every chance they get.

There is a few observations that lead me to this opinion, so let me explain...
The soil and geological makeup in my area is such that good denning sites are few and far between. We have a high, clay based soil. We have some sandy knolls but a lot of these knolls are very gravely so deep narrow dens are tough to dig.

Just to the east of me (20 miles or so) there is a lot of sandy soil offering easier digging and chances for deeper narrower dens. That population is somewhat better then what I've got but still not great.

To the west of me (20 miles or so) is the "Niagra Escarpment" which is a long limestone ridge line running all the way to Niagra falls. Some areas the lime stone is above ground some areas it's just below.
At any rate, there is a lot of crooks and cranys in the rock that fox can get way back into to raise a litter. And not surprising, their fox population is pretty decent. Still not great, but way better then here.

Another thing I noticed about 10-15 years ago, when we were well into our fox decline, I was seeing for myself and hearing from other folks, about fox raising pups in dry, field driveway culverts right next to the road??? I never really saw that before. But again, I think it may have been a last ditch effort to get away from the coyotes.

As far as my population conclusions for fox in my adjacent areas, I'm using fox kill reports from 2 large dog hunter groups that I know that hunt these areas hard.

So in a nutshell my thought is some areas CAN have a good population of fox right along with coyotes.
Its all about the kind of denning available.

Thoughts???

where are there good populations of both?

We dont have a "good" fox population but certainly have some. The den sites of coyote and fox are VERY different and I agree with your theory. They den in different areas and frequent areas with higher human traffic and they also really enjoy playing in the road since they den in the road ditches here

I don' know,, parts of Pennsylvania?
I do see enough barn pics on here with good proportions of both.

Yes on the pics but some guys travel around. Catch coyotes in ks and fox in md for example. I am unaware of anyplace where both can be caught in numbers in the same general area. Here in ks you can catch coyotes about anyplace for example but fox are in or near towns where the coyotes are not so common. Rarely catch fox away from town. I know some way better than average trappers who have never caught a fox here in ks.

May not be a competition for dens so much as coyotes take the den over after they eat the fox.

This is true.
But I'm thinking if fox could consistently den in a spots where coyotes can't get into cause they're larger then I would think populations would have a better chance to co exist??
Otherwise the pups are dead meat... probably along with mama too.

So the next question is... How easy is it for a coyote to run down a fox and kill it at any time of the year?

I have watched a lone coyote chase a fox a few times but I've never seen them catch one. I watched a pair chase a fox one time, the fox didn't have much of a chance.

The "fancy" term is Inter-specific Competition among differing species for the same resources. Both species prey on pretty much the same animals (mice, rabbits, insects, birds, etc.) and eat the same vegetation (fruits, vegetables, etc.), live in the same areas, ,,,, HOWEVER one of those species also preys upon the other (coyote eats the fox!). This is pretty well documented in the journal of wildlife management with several studies of stomach analysis. Fox dens (denning sites) are noticed in areas more frequented by humans (roadsides, cemeteries, golf courses etc.) because they are relatively safe from coyote predation there. And coyotes are generally more secretive about raising young or are harassed to the point of not being able to pull off a successful litter (they get shot, caught or destroyed). Highway or roadside fox dens are not uncommon but a coyote den along a well traveled road is almost unheard of. These conditions are experienced in the wild or natural surroundings --- Southern California conditions do not count!... the mike

I worked in a fur room at Pacific Hide and Fur in Gt Falls MT during the early 1980's. The head buyer was Bob Young, and he had been working in the fur room for 40+ years. He said that in the 1960 they very seldom bought a red fox. But bought plenty of coyotes. In the early 1980's they bought about a 50/50 mix of coyotes and red fox. The fox population expanded with the coyotes that were already there. In the picture is coyotes on the right and fox on the left. I can not remember how many there were. Those came from a sale at Malta and you can see it is a close mix. MT is not know for a super dense coyote or fox population.

I can catch a good many reds trapping around people homes but trapping the big woods seldom get one. Grays I still catch in the woods. I believe the coyotes kill out a lot of the fox pups more then the grown fox.

Back In the day we had NO coyotes and I was catching 70 to 80 reds around here + some grey fox. Know we have coyotes and very few red fox. And I caught 1 grey fox last year. The only one in the last 40 some years of trapping this area.
We have at least 2 active red fox dens right here In the village of Oregon. And 2 years ago I found a active coyote den 3 blocks from my house. I had a set of fox tracks In my drive way 3 days ago. And last winter I had coyote tracks In my yard on at least two occasions.

I am sure that coyotes don't help the fox population, but feel a loss of habitat is a big factor too. Here they farm from the road ditch to the field on the other side. There is no grass between the fields. It is farmed to the water around the sloughs. There is little to no cover for them. Fox like it around houses, but so do sparrows and collared doves. Different animals and birds like different habitat. I don't feel the sparrow lives by the houses to get away from the hawks.

Here I averaged 120-125 fox a year, mange came in and vertually wiped the fox out, coyotes had all that excess food, mice n ect, they came up the rivers and exploded in population, they allow the fox to live in town and along rural roads, as long as coyote are heavily populated the fox will be few and far in between

I'm still hung up on the theory that if fox have the ability to den in country with heavy rock formations, they stand a way better chance of coexisting than anywhere else.
I was hoping some guys from Penn. would chime in. You guys got a lot rock denning there don't you?


I have recently purchased the small farm I grew up on here in eastern WI from my siblings after my mothers passing last November.
The same farm I walked along with my dad and grandpa when I was a little kid catching many fox year after year. This is no great farming farm by any means, 77 acres with only 40 acres tillable seperated into 9 fields, so lots of stone fence lines in between.
Before I was even born, late (50's) dad & grampa tore these stone fences apart in multiple areas and repositioned stones to create den sites for the fox, It worked well. Not every den had a fox litter in but even on this little piece of land we always had at least 2 and sometimes 3 -4.
These dens have been caving in steadily through the winters freezing and thawing.
This is a goal of mine in the future to restore some of these dens sites. I'm thinking if I could use some sort of a restricter tube at the entrance ( like a 3 ft section of 6" corrugated black plastic drain tile) I could maybe entice a fox to den in there. I'm not sure of the 6" size?? maybe too small, but I'm thinking a fox should be able to get in there and a coyote couldn't???
Would it save every fox pup, heck no! but if the pups are playing around the den and a coyote comes along and grabs one of the yougins I'm thinking the ones that make it back to the safety of the den would wise up pretty quick!

Not from Pa but this Ozark region is all karst, meaning that rocks make up a significant portion of the landscape; sure some dens are dug amongst and under rocks and bluffs. Things to think of; where there is enough dirt under a rock for a fox, it is likely also enough for a coyote; simply not that huge a difference in size. And, perhaps most important, pups of any kind will exit the den proper long before they are capable of flight or fight. If you can see them laying about sunning a coyote can eat them.
I expect that competition for groceries may be of graver consequence than competition for housing. Both eat the same things, things that, at least in my area, are of limited availability.