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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222514
04/20/18 03:45 PM
04/20/18 03:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,252
mi. u.p
grapestomper Offline
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mi. u.p
Happens to me after I have reloaded a case several times. Usually I just throw that case away.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222582
04/20/18 06:00 PM
04/20/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
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Call the makers of your dies, they have techs to answer questions.


Life member,
NRA, NTA, RMEF, Pheasants Forever.
WTA,TTA,FTA,SA,GOA, member


Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222651
04/20/18 08:23 PM
04/20/18 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,075
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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When all is said and done it can ONLY BE ONE OF TWO THINGS; either your sizing die is not reducing the neck diameter enough OR the expander ball is expanding the sized neck to much. If you neck turn your brass inside or out to much this will reduce neck tension. Firing a case and sizing multiple times makes the neck wall thickness Thicker Not thiner.
Remove the decapping rod size a case deburr the case mouth an measure the inside of the neck. .306 or smaller.
Measure the expander ball .306 .3065 is about right. All the rest is unimportant.
I have never anealed a piece of brass EVER. I have brass that has been loaded and trimmed so many times outside neck turning is required to avoid excessive bullet pull when chambered. The ONLY ammunition I crimp are revolver pistol cartridges (roll crimp) simi auto pistol (taper crimp) and shotshells. I don't do tubular magazine center fire or those would be crimped. Sounds like you need to review the basics.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222684
04/20/18 09:07 PM
04/20/18 09:07 PM
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Posts: 3,867
meadowview, Virginia
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EdP Offline
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cmcf, why have you never annealed? It seems to me that annealing helps maintain consistent neck tension. Not between rounds in a batch, they should be the same if loaded and fired the same number of times, but batch to batch. Is that not important to you? What about case life, not that cases are all that expensive unless you are a high volume shooter.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222725
04/20/18 10:10 PM
04/20/18 10:10 PM
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Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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Short neck of 300 Winchester might be to blame. I have had magnum and 3006 rounds that recoil caused bullets to slip backward in their case (while in the magazine). I do not have a 300 Win but I do have the WSM 300. No problems so far with those reloads.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222759
04/20/18 11:04 PM
04/20/18 11:04 PM
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Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Edp;I have never seen the need for anealing. And from my research on the subject temp control is critical to get a consistent result. I have seen neck splitting in straight walled MAGNUM PISTOL cases that required a heavy roll crimp. I have never had a bottle neck rifle case split. BUT I only fl resize once, when brass is new unprimed. I have some. 270 win. That have been fired a dozen times and more. I neck size only and use the rifle the ammo is to be used in as a guage to set my sizing dies for a snug fit in the chamber. This minimizes the amount the brass is worked and the amount of stretching. As I posted before I have cases that I had to turn the outside of their necks because the wall thickness was such that it was TIGHT when a bullet was seated and the round was chambered. For what it's worth, The late Richard Mcquisten, a very dear friend, won the National Hunter Bench Rest Championship in 2008 with a rifle be built. We discussed the pros and cons of anealing rifle brass. His position was use good brass. Turn the neck when necessary, when it became necessary again throw it away.
With belted mag cartridges I consider five reloads to be maximum. This is due to incipient case head separation not brittleness. PS I have a .300 win.mag and have never had a problem with insufficient bullet pull, (neck tension).
I only load 180 gr. Sierra spitzer pro hunters flat base. They have been hammered by the front of the magazine box till the soft points were well flattened and no movement.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222838
04/21/18 05:31 AM
04/21/18 05:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,863
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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I tried neck sizing my 22 250 cases. When your in a pasture checking traps, spot a coyote running off, its time to pick up the rifle, rack the bolt and load it. It aint that easy. They fit tight. Don't just slide right in. Accuracy improves but not enough to be the deciding factor on whether or not a coyote gets pelted. Groups the size of a quarter reduced to size of a nickel. Not worth the effort for hunting IMO. brass life I've no doubt is better. Guess we all make choices. I'm going to full length size and crimp my 300 win mag. Shoots accurately, loads easily, no bullets seating deeper in the magazine.

P.S. never heard of annealing till I read it on TMan. Never been a problem not doing it and I aint gonna fix what aint broke.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222873
04/21/18 06:48 AM
04/21/18 06:48 AM
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eastern WV
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222880
04/21/18 07:07 AM
04/21/18 07:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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what happens if you don't rr?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222909
04/21/18 08:04 AM
04/21/18 08:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
"Minka"
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The bullets unseat with new, unfired, once-fired, and more-than-once fired cases.

On both Norma and WW cases.

No, I'm not seating the bullets crooked or past the ogive. I use a Forster Ultra bullet seater die, and run-out is excellent.

Thanks for all the other comments. I've never annealed in the past, but I don't reload rifle cases more than three or four times.

Jim


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Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6222935
04/21/18 08:38 AM
04/21/18 08:38 AM
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Posts: 3,867
meadowview, Virginia
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EdP Offline
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Given that the problem exists with new, unfired brass, that seems to me to point to your expander, as you originally suspected. You can measure it and compare with my 30-06 RCBS expander measurement of .3065".

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: Ridge Runner1960] #6222969
04/21/18 09:34 AM
04/21/18 09:34 AM
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Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ridge Runner1960
anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR



NEW UNFIRED! WORK HARDENED??
Them lil suckers must be working out in the box while it's still on the shelf!
HaaaaaHaaaa yea right.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223046
04/21/18 11:21 AM
04/21/18 11:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
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hippie Offline
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James said, about 1 in four does it.

That part is hard to explain.

Sounds random, with all types of brass. If sizing the brass all "feels" the same and mic's good, put the mic to your bullets. I've never had a bad batch, but ya never know.

Last edited by hippie; 04/21/18 11:30 AM.
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223368
04/21/18 08:31 PM
04/21/18 08:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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Thanks for all the suggestions. It's happened with more than one batch and brand of bullets (both Nosler and Swift).

The idea of comparing the expander ball measurement to the expander ball on a .30-06 is excellent. I happen to load for that round too, and have an '06 die set on the shelf. I'll have to mic both balls when I get the chance. Thanks for your own measurement, Ed.

Jim


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"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: danny clifton] #6223479
04/21/18 10:26 PM
04/21/18 10:26 PM
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eastern WV
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
what happens if you don't rr?

It springs back, ya lose neck tension. Brass is made of copper and zinc, copper softens when annealed and gets hard and springy when worked, I anneal every 4-5 loadings, brass will last many loadings if ya take care of it and don't run high enough pressures to lose the pockets.
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: cmcf] #6223486
04/21/18 10:29 PM
04/21/18 10:29 PM
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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Originally Posted By: cmcf
Originally Posted By: Ridge Runner1960
anneal your brass, its work hardened.
RR



NEW UNFIRED! WORK HARDENED??
Them lil suckers must be working out in the box while it's still on the shelf!
HaaaaaHaaaa yea right.

perhaps a bad batch or improperly annealed from the factory, but its a brass problem, not anything in the loading process
RR

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223500
04/21/18 10:41 PM
04/21/18 10:41 PM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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It's happened with three different batches of brass, two from Win and one from Norma.

It's got me befuddled. Doesn't happen with any other cartridge I load, from .22-250 to .416 Rem and .45-70. That's why I think it may be something to do with the die or expander ball.

Jim


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"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223535
04/21/18 11:45 PM
04/21/18 11:45 PM
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South Dakota
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I had a bad batch of 243 brass made by Winchester many years ago with this same problem. I started doing a slight crimp on everything I load since then, and I haven’t looked back. To me, crimping, is a good insurance policy.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223661
04/22/18 08:28 AM
04/22/18 08:28 AM
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Hilton, NY
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Starting to sound like you might have a die set that is right on the edge of being out of spec. How old are the dies and how long have you been using them? Did you get the set new or used? New brass does or should have a tolerance spec. Try to get a standard micrometer and a tubing Micrometer to check and compare the neck wall thickness of your brass (new unfired or once fired) to get a handle on any inconsistencies. You could have an issue with a die that has a neck diameter that is large and some of the brass is on the small side. Out of spec dies are not common. I have only seen one set that I can remember, a set of 223 RCBS. The showed the same problem you are having.

Re: Hand-loaders, I have a problem [Re: James] #6223863
04/22/18 01:37 PM
04/22/18 01:37 PM
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Blue Creek, Ohio
Hal Offline
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glue


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