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Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Jason Turner] #6262745
06/19/18 01:49 PM
06/19/18 01:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
Regarding exposed cages, all other factors considered, are they consistently catching due to the safety factor created by water depth inside the cage AND the height if the door?
____________________


Yes, but the traps I use are swim through traps for under water use as well. Just the more open the better to a point to where the best size for the situation comes into play.

The type trigger, how it is formed as to height and coverage for the set. Even the way the way the trigger can be adjusted to fire and how it moves with the type of set and water depth in relation to the size of the animal.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6262757
06/19/18 02:00 PM
06/19/18 02:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
Pan traps and pan cages have been around forever. Land setting for beaver, something I have not relied on as there has been no real need for it, is a step in the other direction. You could use a 1081 Havahart if land trapping for beaver is your thing. Land setting for beaver is more about forcing, "a duck out of water." Beaver don't walk or fly to arrive at land set, but swim there. I'm happy catch them in the water on the way. I have not burdened myself with figuring out problems with cage heights, widths etc. in land setting. Set in water, the swim through cages work in whatever size you have.
_________________________


Some of the places I go the only set is on land. Some states require conibears to be set in water, but no restriction on cages. Snares will allow a catch circle on a manicured pond. Some landowners won,t allow foot holds, even the use of snares. An elderly trapper cold still make sets with a cage on land and not take risk close to the waters edge.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6262772
06/19/18 02:26 PM
06/19/18 02:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
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K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
The most common way to trap beaver since the 60's has been with conibears due to the speed, ease and versatility with which they could be set under water in runs where beaver spend a great deal of time and are most comfortable. When there is any kind of danger or uncertainty where does a beaver go? Not on the bank. What set the swim through beaver traps apart from other cage traps 8 years ago was their ability to be set under water to duplicate the function of a conibear. The wire trigger with the powered doors made that possible. With the new capabilities the swim throughs could be dropped in 8 or 10 inch runs just out of water, in 14 inch water just under water or in very deep runs several feet deep, which made the trap a conibear substitute in a trap with a deeply recessed trigger. Better yet, cages do not require stabilization, a level playing field or wiring, just drop and go.


Quote:
Better yet, cages do not require stabilization, a level playing field or wiring, just drop and go.


The areas I go sometimes the banks and dams are angled at the water. When I make a set paraellel to the bank to maintain a level trap and ideal opening for one to two traps set side by side, I stake the two traps. Some times the bottom is rocky not allowing the trap to be stable in shallow water, so I stake, place stones, and logs against the trap. Also, sometimes the cross over is set on the dam due to quick drop offs and mucky bottom creating an unsafe situation. Staking the side of the cage and placing leaves and mud in the cage make the beaver more likely to enter and not miss the beaver the same as a well bedded foot hold or cage for bobcat on land.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263141
06/19/18 11:53 PM
06/19/18 11:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
Jason Turner Offline
trapper
Jason Turner  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Aix sponsa
Please keep it coming everyone, I appreciate every tidbit of information.
<<<please do!


Wildlife Removal, Etc.
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263331
06/20/18 05:04 AM
06/20/18 05:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA
Vinke Offline
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Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA
post said live trap....,,,,,,???????????//
..................









L
whistle whistle whistle whistle


Living life like a dog with a stick


Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263333
06/20/18 05:07 AM
06/20/18 05:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA
hats off to
Mister Jim and Mister Kirk,,,,,,,,,Two off the best!!!!.........


Living life like a dog with a stick


Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263436
06/20/18 11:52 AM
06/20/18 11:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
trapper
Jim Comstock  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
It takes me some time to recall the specifics of the successes of so much of what has transpired over the past 8 years taking beaver, otter and muskrats in all conditions, from open water to under ice, muck to bedroom in the powered door cage traps. I now take these cage traps for granted as there is just about nothing that can't be accomplished with them. I don't give it much thought, other than to just go and do it. It's bad enough to forget what others have taught me and worse yet to forget something I came up with.

As mentioned above, some kinds of powered door cage traps, like the 12x18x39 and its cousins, do not require "a level playing field." In fact there are no limitations or requirements for the traps to function. They can be set right side up, upside down and sideways as well as angled front to back and or side to side at any angle, 30, 45, 60 degrees etc. Because they are not square they are essential a trap of two sizes to fit runs large and narrow. They would work vertically as well, but I don't know if there would ever be a need. I have set them in deep runs under boat docks in our Adirondack lakes on bedrock outcroppings with no cover of any kind with positive results. I have placed them on large cobblestones as well, again with no cover under tight boat docks where any other traps with extended doors would be useless. In wide areas where no fencing can be made I simply add a second trap as a "fence." Best part, the sets can be made and placed in the time it takes to set the trap and drop. As far as making trigger adjustments, the powered door traps described are unique in that they have a hook that can be placed and slid along a bar to be used in different positions to make the traps very sensitive on one end and also make them stiff so that the traps can be set in swift current on the other.

Placed in muck, the traps will function even when the muck bleeds up through the cage wire several inches. I often run into deep muck. Placing a trap on the "bottom" I noticed the trap had sunk almost out of sight with just a few inched showing, not even close to enough room for a beaver to enter. About to abandon the location, I noticed the top of the cage was just over a foot from the surface. Bingo, I just set a second cage on top with the top of the trap acting as the deadman with a few weeds to hide it from people. Next trip, 45 pound male.

Having a wide trap is an asset. Otter travel closely together. One trapper in Washington placed an 18 on land where otter were going under a home. Had he not sent the photo of five large male otter caught in one trap at once, I would not have believed it. I have used traps to 24 inches wide and like them for the deep wide runs as no narrowing is necessary, most always upside down, unless there is clean sandy bottoms. It is not uncommon to take a pair of otter swimming together. I also used traps right side up for land setting otter a little over a year ago to take 8 otter in 12 days in a handful of traps on a big lake. In channels others have taken hundreds of otter, not only in the wide traps but also the narrower 12 inch.

A friend of mine gave his son a 12x12 cage. They set it and had an otter the following day. I asked if they used a deadman as the set was in 2 feet of water. They said no. I asked if they used some brush to hide it. They said no. I asked if they had fenced it at all. They said no. I asked, "what did you do?" They said they just dropped the bare trap in and left.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263553
06/20/18 01:41 PM
06/20/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
AirportTrapper Offline
trapper
AirportTrapper  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
You can get away with alot under the water.


If it makes a track on this earth , I can catch it.
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263561
06/20/18 01:46 PM
06/20/18 01:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
I experimented with 12 x 12, 12 x 13, 12 x 14, 13 x 14, plus many other sizes to 20" wide lock doored traps. The experimenting was even greater for the guillotine doored traps.



In reference to lock bar doors, the traps I use are different than any other lock bar doored traps that I have seen. At first glance they look the same.

They have two slide bars like others at the top but the traps I use have a gap of 3/8" between the wrapped cage wire and the two slide bars. The door has a less steep angle allowing a longer door. Also, the swinging lock bar stops at 90 degrees instead of 100 degrees or more as other trap door designs.

The wire is wrapped so that the main rib is down and perpendicular to the length of the cage.

These changes allow an 8-10 pound larger beaver to be caught in a 36" long 12" x 12" trap with lock bar doors.This Process creates a ratchet affect as the door falls, locking the door as it goes down not allowing the a large animal to back out , lifting the door. The longer angled door and the 3/8" gap at the top of the cage allows the beaver to lift his tail slightly and slide his tail into the trap when the door closes in a tight situation.

I have found that a steeper angled closed door, without the perpendicular ribs and the 3/8" gap, reduces ability to catch due to these factors.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263599
06/20/18 03:00 PM
06/20/18 03:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
This Process creates a ratchet affect as the door falls, locking the door as it goes down not allowing the a large animal to back out , lifting the door. The longer angled door and the 3/8" gap at the top of the cage allows the beaver to lift his tail slightly and slide his tail into the trap when the door closes in a tight situation.


It prevents the lock bar from sliding back for an animal to release himself or back out if the door is not all the way down.

Even if he grabs the lock bar it will catch because it has to be held down all the way through the door opening process unlike the coon escaping in this video from this lock bar door example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec6IPTm486A

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6263605
06/20/18 03:09 PM
06/20/18 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
The design won,t allow the lock bar to be brought all the way back or for the door to be pushed open if the door is not all the way closed.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264234
06/21/18 01:29 PM
06/21/18 01:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
trapper
Jim Comstock  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
Bottom line, we have caught beaver as large as anyone in the 12x12, 60+ pounders on more than one occasion. Probably the reason I haven't caught more that size in the narrow trap is because the wider 18 inch trap is easier to place, more spots for them, less fencing and far more "open" appearing than a narrow 12 inch, so I use the wide traps 99% of the time or even some 22 and 24 wide. When offered a 12 our 18 inch wide trap, even though the 12 inch is of course less expensive, most trappers will choose the wider trap as the way to go. We don't have any failures or escapes with the angles and setups we are using. With thousands of these cages in service, if there were issues we would have heard about it. I would have experienced what is implied myself in well over 1,000 catches if there were issues. With 20 pounds of pressure on each door these lock bar traps are made to set easily and fire quickly. Set upside down under water in runs an animal can get no purchase on a solid surface to effect backing. Simply put, the surface with which the beaver may try to gain traction to back out is powered and moving forward to the center of the trap, pushing the beaver right into the trap. A beavers back feet, on a large beaver, will rest on the moving powered door as the trap fires, launching him forward into the trap. Having rugged internal triggering components inside the confines of the box is what allow for setting as you choose, right side up, upside down or sideways, no limitations.

Where there are unreachable runs, I know of no other trap of any type that can quite literally be thrown into deep water and settle to the bottom ready for a catch. What we do was born from necessity, from experiencing obstacles to be overcome while on the line, just like everyone experiences. Previously off limits areas to setting, solid rock, muck and deep water are now all in a days work, not a problem.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264242
06/21/18 01:40 PM
06/21/18 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
AirportTrapper Offline
trapper
AirportTrapper  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
For those deep unreachable runs, I'm throwing my 14x17 Advanced guillotine door into it. I have had zero problems with it. I prefer it set upside down in the deeper runs.


If it makes a track on this earth , I can catch it.
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264260
06/21/18 02:23 PM
06/21/18 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
I have never seen a real advantage to setting the traps I use upside down. The beaver dives to the bottom. If needed, sticks and debris can be laid over the top extending out from the trap to make them dive. The type of trigger and door is the only reason I would be forced to use that option.

As far as throwing a trap in, I just use my rake and drop them in hard to reach runs. The ability of the trigger to adapt to the set is more important to me than being able to throw the trap in. That just tells me the trigger only moves two ways and opens and closes like a house door. A house door makes the user go one way, left or right. If set hanging down go under and set upside down, over. That dramatically limits what sets can be made..

The trigger I use allows the trap to be set with no bait on a run, it can also be baited on the outside on both sides, and the beaver go down either side, left or right going through smelling the lure or just going down the run. On land or in and underwater.

Last edited by Kirk De; 06/21/18 03:38 PM. Reason: clarification
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264280
06/21/18 03:00 PM
06/21/18 03:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
AirportTrapper Offline
trapper
AirportTrapper  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 533
Louisiana
I put it upside down so the cage is at top of water to help hold debri on top of cage.


If it makes a track on this earth , I can catch it.
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264352
06/21/18 05:13 PM
06/21/18 05:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
what are the advantages of setting a trap upside down if the entire trap is submerged anyway?


With a swing bar trigger setting upside down makes the trap appear more open. The doors on the bottom and the protruding up swing bar guide the beaver up through the top of the trap, limiting the amount of force the beaver can put against the door because of the angle of the doors. If the trap were right side up the beavers momentum and body would be down low into the trap and at the bottom of the doors. If the doors don,t lock the beaver can possibly push his way on through the door. The wire floor and the beavers claws allow much leverage for a large strong beaver. With the trap upside down the beaver can,t get the leverage needed to open the door fast enough before he drowns.

The trap being upside down is not needed if the doors lock as they go down.

It really is only a problem on a short trap or a large fast moving beaver that has momentum and size to force the door back up enough to squeeze it open before he drowns. Upside down makes it very hard for any means to fight the trap, especially under water. A wider trap also helps to reduce the chance of the door not locking before the beaver drowns. It makes him want to pull his body in and then fight the trap, especially with a large beaver, causing his demise.

Out of water, upside down makes an uneven floor. Sometimes it matters and some time not.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264477
06/21/18 09:32 PM
06/21/18 09:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
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K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,243
Georgia
Quote:
Can anyone talk about the different sets they make with cage traps?


Trap Guillotine long spring wire trigger 14x17x32-38".

1. set on a cross over on land
2. crossover at waters edge
3. run under water or shallow water
4. one to two traps parallel in run
5. one or two traps lured between traps parallel to bank
6. Small opening in dam or pipe set perpendicular to opening using one or two traps.
7. one or two traps set in 5-8" of water about 5" apart lured on debris between traps on run or
perpendicular and just out of main channel
8. one or two traps floated with pvc pontoons
9. castor mound set with one or two traps
10. box culvert sets hung or set on floor of culvert
11. trap parallel to sea wall with lure against wall. Can be hung if needed.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264578
06/22/18 12:21 AM
06/22/18 12:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
Jason Turner Offline
trapper
Jason Turner  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
Back to the exposed cage thing...if a beaver is caught and held for a period of time and is observed by the rest of the colony, will it lead to refusals?


Wildlife Removal, Etc.
Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264636
06/22/18 02:02 AM
06/22/18 02:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
trapper
Jim Comstock  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 157
New York
Setting upside down is definitely the way to go with lock bar type powered door cage traps. Debris is always kept under the doors, stuff you might not see in deep or dark water. A door firing downward can pick up junk and could get jammed. Firing up through water free of debris provides for clean firing and catch. I don't think I can remember a time in 8 years that I have ever had a door jammed, though a few times a beaver has carried sticks that got caught right along with the beaver.

Guillotine door traps are great, if you don't mind putting up with all the obvious limitations that will force abandonment of a great many locations. Just imagine the difference in trying to squeeze a 30 inch tall monster in a 12 inch slot. Ain't gonna happen. Internal doors, either powered lock bar or bifold make for clean setting, nothing sticking up or out. Placing logs on top of a lock bar trap will all but make the trap disappear. The bottom of the trap can sink into the muck while the top of the trap and log become "one."

I do like 4 way triggers with side to side firing, but have found that after a thousand catches with 660 magnums, the two way triggers Rich Kaspar made work just fine for beaver, otter and rats. The same is also true for the powered door cages.

Jason, I have found that beaver "talk." Got 3 big ones on castor one night, all alive in cages just a bit out of water. Next night nothing. Thought I might be done. Turns out there were 8 more beaver. None of which would return to that location.

Re: BEAVERS: Swim Through Live Traps覧I知 Listening [Re: Aix sponsa] #6264793
06/22/18 12:13 PM
06/22/18 12:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
Jason Turner Offline
trapper
Jason Turner  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 187
Arkansas
That痴 what I have noticed too then Jim. They don稚 like to see one of their own kind in distress. In my area, I can catch multiples in a snare location unless it痴 a female with pups. I may be doing some things incorrectly but that痴 my experience.


Wildlife Removal, Etc.
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