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#6276491 - 07/10/18 06:20 PM Lure came out wrong??
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
Anyone else ever mix something up and it doesn't come out smelling anything close to what you expected. Happens to me more than I would think it should (but I'm just learning). I'll share me latest experience. So I have a pint of deer testicles that I aged for a month and then preserved. They had a fishy smell when I preserved them. About 2 weeks ago I decided to use them. Opened jar and the odor had changed to kind of an earthy musky odor. Took two ounces of this for the base and added. 8 drops tinctured Civit musk and a drop of tonquin musk. Now the formulation smells like chocolate to me. Wife will not smell any more of my trapping lures (which she never agrees with the smell of one with me anyways) to verify what I'm smelling. I'll go ahead and test anyways. Who knows..


Edited by Yes sir (07/10/18 06:22 PM)

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#6276523 - 07/10/18 07:00 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
danny clifton Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 11715
Loc: williamsburg ks
what was your theory when adding civet and tonquin to them?
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#6276526 - 07/10/18 07:03 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
It had a musky smell to it so I kind of thought those two would work in that direction but I'm just a beginner and my "theories" don't have much bases behind them at this point.

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#6276698 - 07/10/18 11:01 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
Danny
You posed an interesting question that got me thinking. What was my theory? In this actual case my theory is based mostly from what I've read in the the lure making books I have. From what I gather both of these ingredients are top shelf ingredients in predator lures. Based off the formulations in these books I see where civet is used both in food base lures and gland based lures. What little I can gather on tonquin is it will improve a lot of different formulations. So I went for it. But as a beginner at this stuff I find the knowledge of truthful theories on lure making intriguing. Such as which side odors work together, which side odors work with which base materials, what chemical compounds cause which reactions and just as important why. But I also find it the most difficult information to gain. Either because some people don't know it to share with you, or the ones that do know value it to much to pass it out freely ( which I can understand) or they know the best way is to learn it is on your own. Anyway I have to start somewhere. I don't necessarily want to just learn the recipe to a good lure but I want to learn the "theories" of making good lures. I may never get beyond the elementary grade in this learning but so far I'm enjoying it. I work at picking bits and pieces here and there so I have a starting point to built these theories from. For example I think Lazarus mentioned on here that he added rotten down rattle snake to his cat urine to liven it up. Now my first thought is are there other rotten down materials that will add attraction to urine or is there a key chemical compound in rattlesnake that makes it work, or will this work for coyotes and coyote urine also. Another bit I learned on here from one of the legends (I think it was Asa But don't quote me) was that rotten down muskrat glands causes the most intense digging reaction of anything they had worked with. I could name many different things that I have picked up on but there are still a lot of gaps to fill in for myself and that's the challenge I enjoy. Just thoughts from a beginner.

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#6276720 - 07/11/18 01:08 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Jonesie Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 925
Loc: Monroeville NJ
It still may change more. Remember just because you stopped the discomposure, the batch may still change to where everything is stopped or fixed.
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#6276832 - 07/11/18 06:47 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
Thank you sir for that heads up.

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#6276860 - 07/11/18 07:36 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
yukonal Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 706
Loc: MN
From the time you fix it, until the time it is completely gassed off, the odor will change. Usually mellows somewhat.

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#6277023 - 07/11/18 11:47 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 3544
Loc: Southern Michigan
The biggest factor for my food base stuff is to let it rot beyond the rank stage before it's fixed and other ingreds. are added. Only took 4 years LOL.. but it was always in shade witch takes longer than sun.

In your situation let it sit, like others stated it will change over time before it stays. Coyotes just might love the stuff. Test it and see...
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#6297008 - 08/08/18 06:48 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
ScottPhillips Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 467
Loc: Colorado
That seems like quite a bit of Civet, did you overpower your base?

Scott
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#6297096 - 08/08/18 09:16 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Bob Jameson Offline


Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 3480
Loc: SW Pa
I agree with Scott. Civet is an extremely overpowering ingredient and can dominate a product if you aren't careful. This lure making takes a lot of time with much trial and error to come up with something really good along with the mistakes and bad judgment.

It takes time to learn the effects of each ingredient and its effect in various formulas. Once it is in a product you cant get it out and it may be difficult to mask or blend over it. Worse case scenario is to use some of it in another batch until its gone if it doesn't work out real well in testing as a stand alone.

The field tests will tell the story. You may have a good one then again it may not be real good. Kind of how things go on some of the first few batches. I still have some mishaps in jugs and bottles from the late 60's early 70's. I still smell them every now and then. I just smile when I do. Brings back the many memories of my early years.

Sometimes things may surprise you and may be the best thing yet. smile

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#6297126 - 08/08/18 10:26 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
TONY.F Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/02/14
Posts: 3512
Loc: N.C MO
I agree civet is strong but it holds a good attraction all by itself so the trace smells will be the testicles and tonquin. Personally it could make a nice curiosity side smell. Worst case senerio it don't work. Not the end of the world. You got your brain working try again!
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#6297136 - 08/08/18 10:40 AM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
ponyboy Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 404
Loc: New York
Yes sir. You are very lucky to have some of the most knowledgeable lure makers in the country respond to your questions. They are freely giving you and the world knowledge that took many decades to acquire. I would keep asking as long as they are willing to help. I agree with them and would have reversed the tonquin and civit amounts. Keep on mixing....


Edited by ponyboy (08/08/18 10:41 AM)

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#6297229 - 08/08/18 01:56 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
Ponyboy
Yes I hear what you are saying about some of the best giving advise. I am very blessed to have them willing to share with me and everyone that will read this advise they kindly share. Not only on this thread but all the others. The more I play at this the more questions I have and the more I realize the theories I mentioned earlier are going to take ALOT of time and testing to develop. Which in turn makes the information they share that much more valuable to me. Thanks again everyone for being willing to help steer a new guy in the right direction.

Seth

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#6297239 - 08/08/18 02:11 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
While I'm on the subject of giving thanks, there's someone on this thread that I have to give alot of credit it to. I don't need to mention his name because he knows whom I speak of but he was willing to let me ride with him on his line and ask a ton of questions when I first started to trap and still is very helpful with tips when I talk to him. A big thank to you sir. If he wouldn't of pointed me in the right direction and encouraged me I might not have developed this trapping bug. So for all your help thank you Sir.

Seth

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#6297463 - 08/08/18 08:18 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Bob Jameson Offline


Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 3480
Loc: SW Pa
Hopefully the tinctured Civet was a moderate to weak formula and it may not be a total disappointment. Straight run Civet is quite a dominating odor as Tonquin can be as well.

In such a small amount of base material it is best to add ingredients in drops then blend it in well and wait a week or so and smell the batch again. If the ingredient is subtle it may be just right, if it seems stronger you may have added too much. Smaller batches mature much faster then larger volume batches in most cases.

You need to get away from it so your sensory perception of smelling it doesn't become to ingrained in your mind due to smelling it too frequently. You will learn about this phenomenon more as you work in this field.

Kind of like walking into a new environment for the first time or smelling something for the first time and you develop an immediate odor recognition of that place or product and it becomes ingrained in your sensory perception area of your brain.

You will have to mentally log in the odor recognition in your mind to detect the sometimes subtle changes over time. As a novice its good to keep a small mother batch of the base to compare the odor changes that occur in the blended batch. Sounds complicated but you will understand better once you begin batch odor comparisons.

You will know you are getting the hang of all this when you can pull a bottle of lure off a table and identify most if not all of the basic ingredients of that product. Some are easier then others to name ingredients from a brief odor analysis. Its a fun challenge that I find amusing at times to do at conventions.


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#6297483 - 08/08/18 08:35 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
Yes sir Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 1139
Loc: Marion Kansas
Thanks again Bob! I think my civet tincture is not as powerful a some of your guys. It doesn't seem to be that dominant. I have other ingredients that seem to be way more dominant. I did add another ounce of the base material and with time it seemed to settle down. I have been just working in 2 or 3 ounce batches this year so I don't run as much material this year. Most of my base materials I have acquired is in quantities of quarts or gallons so I can go back and add some or get an idea of it's original smell. In actuality I've collected more base materials than I know what to do with. If and when I come up with a great formula for one of them I'm not sure if I can use it up in my lifetime. But it fun so what the heck.

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#6297549 - 08/08/18 09:10 PM Re: Lure came out wrong?? [Re: Yes sir]
ponyboy Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 404
Loc: New York
You could always add more base material if you needed to.

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