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Socialism #6290082
07/29/18 11:25 PM
07/29/18 11:25 PM
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Posts: 6,182
Central Oregon
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AntiGov Offline OP
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Report a post club - Non member


Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290084
07/29/18 11:27 PM
07/29/18 11:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10,911
MN
FlyinFinn Offline
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MN
Greed, love of force and coercion, ignorance and self aggrandizement.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290169
07/30/18 07:08 AM
07/30/18 07:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,308
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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Riverotter2 Offline
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Just seen on the news 43% of Millennials are planning on quitting their jobs within two years. There where most of your free, free, free is coming from. Lazy parents and sorry schools and collages.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290187
07/30/18 07:48 AM
07/30/18 07:48 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,809
michigan,USA
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seniortrap Offline
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michigan,USA
It started in 1935 when FDR got Social Security passed and handed out more money.

Then in 1968 LBJ transferred the money out of that fund(SS) over to the general fund.

Then in 1975 Medicare came to pass. More FREE!!!!!!

Now they scream its all going broke.

Margaret Thatcher stated, "Socialism is great until you runout of other peoples money"!


Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers

"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction."
"After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290204
07/30/18 08:12 AM
07/30/18 08:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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The one's pushing it the most have little to nothing to put in the "pot" and are not wanting to work for it in the end!




Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290215
07/30/18 08:30 AM
07/30/18 08:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,379
Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Alaska and Washington State
A socialist is just a communist without a rifle.


My life is better than your vacation
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290265
07/30/18 10:22 AM
07/30/18 10:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,013
St. Louis Co, Mo
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BigBob Offline
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Or, any common sense!


Every kid needs a Dog and a Curmudgeon.

Remember Bowe Bergdahl, the traitor.

Beware! Jill Pudlewski, Ron Oates and Keven Begesse are liars and thiefs!
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290271
07/30/18 10:26 AM
07/30/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290287
07/30/18 10:38 AM
07/30/18 10:38 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,455
Mn
N
nightlife Offline
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Mn
Originally Posted By: AntiGov


Part I think is that a lot of those that support it are ingnorent of just what it entiles, I once had a young lady try to convince me about the virtues of socialism by describing it as increaseing personal liberty and protecting personal property ect ect and she was a bit upset when I started laughing at her and told her that she had just described capatialism to a T

I then proceeded to describe socialism to her she did not believe me and insisted I was mistaken

Sad thing is that such people will not admit they are wrong even when they have been clearly shown they are and the more they are shown how wrong they are the adimendet and down right rabid about how right they are

Lot like bunny huggers

Last edited by nightlife; 07/30/18 10:40 AM. Reason: Dang auto correct




�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Socialism [Re: nightlife] #6290291
07/30/18 10:41 AM
07/30/18 10:41 AM
Joined: May 2008
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Mn
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nightlife Offline
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Mn
Originally Posted By: nightlife
[quote=AntiGov]Why do so many support it ?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/2...-it-anyway.html


Part I think is that a lot of those that support it are ingnorent of just what it entiles, I once had a young lady try to convince me about the virtues of socialism by describing it as increaseing personal liberty and protecting personal property ect ect and she was a bit upset when I started laughing at her and told her that she had just described capatialism to a T

I then proceeded to describe socialism to her she did not believe me and insisted I was mistaken

Sad thing is that such people will not admit they are wrong even when they have been clearly shown they are and the more they are shown how wrong they are the more adimendet and down right rabid they become about how right they are

Lot like bunny huggers

Last edited by nightlife; 07/30/18 01:44 PM.




�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290323
07/30/18 11:12 AM
07/30/18 11:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,098
NE
M
Marty B Offline
"arbitrary noob"
Marty B  Offline
"arbitrary noob"
M

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,098
NE

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290328
07/30/18 11:16 AM
07/30/18 11:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
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NE
M
Marty B Offline
"arbitrary noob"
Marty B  Offline
"arbitrary noob"
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Joined: Sep 2010
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NE

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290347
07/30/18 11:55 AM
07/30/18 11:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,408
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Trapper7 Offline
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Many are millennials who are unemployed, in student debt, reason like a 2 year old, believe money grows on trees, don't own a business, car, house, or are married. But, still think they have all the answers to the world's problems, even though they admit they don't have a clue on foreign affairs.


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290362
07/30/18 12:20 PM
07/30/18 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,597
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
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Marion Kansas
We are raising a society the believes more in entitlements than freedom.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290393
07/30/18 01:00 PM
07/30/18 01:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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It started many years ago and slowly grew I helped manage a juvenile Academy for many years and the people straight out of collage had the idea that after graduation they were done working!

Now today with everything being automatic it has become even worse. If some were farmers we would starve waiting for someone to do the work!


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290460
07/30/18 03:19 PM
07/30/18 03:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,308
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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Riverotter2 Offline
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When it get down to the nut cuttin you guys going to wear the color gray this time, lol.

Re: Socialism [Re: waggler] #6290462
07/30/18 03:20 PM
07/30/18 03:20 PM
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Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
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Hancock Co., Indiana
Originally Posted By: waggler
A socialist is just a communist without a rifle.


I have to try to remember that one!


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel’'s hands.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290472
07/30/18 03:40 PM
07/30/18 03:40 PM
Joined: May 2011
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Pa
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Art S Offline
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Re: Socialism [Re: waggler] #6290528
07/30/18 04:57 PM
07/30/18 04:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
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Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted By: waggler
A socialist is just a communist without a rifle who hasn't figured out how to take your rifle.

Last edited by brianmall; 07/30/18 06:07 PM.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290534
07/30/18 05:03 PM
07/30/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,105
Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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What I don't understand is how they can run for and hold office. To hold office you have to swear an oath to our Constitution! We outlawed the communist party years ago. We kick folks out of and/or stop entry in to our military for being communist or belonging to other militias.

I can see if someone went a card carrying member being able to hold office. But if you hold the card you shouldn't be able to hold office.

Heck,. It is literally a question for entry into FBI, CIA, etc...

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290536
07/30/18 05:04 PM
07/30/18 05:04 PM
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Posts: 9,105
Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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We have a Constitution. You have to swear to uphold and protect that!

You can not be a part of the opposing force and do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290545
07/30/18 05:11 PM
07/30/18 05:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10,911
MN
FlyinFinn Offline
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MN
It is not illegal to be a Communist. There are Communist Parties active in many states in our country.
Being a 'communist' isn't unconstitutional,. Many of the policies they may implement might be unconstitutional, but that has been the case of both Republican and Democrat parties in our near history.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290546
07/30/18 05:13 PM
07/30/18 05:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 10,911
MN
FlyinFinn Offline
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Here is a link to the Indiana District of the Communist Party:
http://www.cpusa.org/authors/indiana-district/

Re: Socialism [Re: FlyinFinn] #6290548
07/30/18 05:15 PM
07/30/18 05:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
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Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted By: FlyinFinn
It is not illegal to be a Communist. There are Communist Parties active in many states in our country.
Being a 'communist' isn't unconstitutional,. Many of the policies they may implement might be unconstitutional, but that has been the case of both Republican and Democrat parties in our near history.



Being one is not illegal. Belonging to the "club" is not illegal.

But being the above then taking office and swearing an oath to our Constitution is! Because it a lie!!!

I'm pretty sure we did outlaw a communist party! As in dem, rep, communist

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290550
07/30/18 05:16 PM
07/30/18 05:16 PM
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Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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The Communist Control Act (68 Stat. 775, 50 U.S.C. 841-844) is a piece of United States federal legislation, signed into law by President Dwight Eisenhower on 24 August 1954, which outlaws the Communist Party of the United States and criminalizes membership in, or support for the Party or "Communist-action" ...

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290554
07/30/18 05:17 PM
07/30/18 05:17 PM
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Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
And "states" are different! States have more leeway to do what they want

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290555
07/30/18 05:18 PM
07/30/18 05:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
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Wisconsin
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virgil1972 Offline
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Wisconsin
I agree that many of the people don't even know what is socialism really is and means. They think you can have all that free stuff, not have high taxes, and keep your freedoms.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290569
07/30/18 05:38 PM
07/30/18 05:38 PM
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MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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With how screwed up the medical industry is I may be able to support single payer health care if it was ran by each individual state and not a federal program, dont think that quite makes me a full fledged socialist though...

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290635
07/30/18 07:04 PM
07/30/18 07:04 PM
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ny
U
upstateNY Offline
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ny
Free stuff paid for by the gubmint sounds just hunky dorey to those that don't realise the gubments money is actually our taxes.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Socialism [Re: Riverotter2] #6290660
07/30/18 07:43 PM
07/30/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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St. Louis Co, Mo
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BigBob Offline
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Originally Posted By: Riverotter2
When it get down to the nut cuttin you guys going to wear the color gray this time, lol.

"Butternut"


Every kid needs a Dog and a Curmudgeon.

Remember Bowe Bergdahl, the traitor.

Beware! Jill Pudlewski, Ron Oates and Keven Begesse are liars and thiefs!
Re: Socialism [Re: brianmall] #6290661
07/30/18 07:43 PM
07/30/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

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Originally Posted By: brianmall
And "states" are different! States have more leeway to do what they want



Hers's the link to the national party.

http://www.cpusa.org/

You may be aware that John Brennan...Obama's head of the CIA, voted for Gus Hall in 1976. Hall was the CPUSA candidate for president. So much for control of the communists. They are alive and well all around us.


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6290663
07/30/18 07:44 PM
07/30/18 07:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
With how screwed up the medical industry is I may be able to support single payer health care if it was ran by each individual state and not a federal program, dont think that quite makes me a full fledged socialist though...



How would you pay for it ?


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: BigBob] #6290684
07/30/18 08:12 PM
07/30/18 08:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,308
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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Riverotter2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BigBob
Originally Posted By: Riverotter2
When it get down to the nut cuttin you guys going to wear the color gray this time, lol.



"Butternut"


OK Butternut it is. lol

Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6290687
07/30/18 08:15 PM
07/30/18 08:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,105
Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted By: white17
Originally Posted By: brianmall
And "states" are different! States have more leeway to do what they want



Hers's the link to the national party.

http://www.cpusa.org/

You may be aware that John Brennan...Obama's head of the CIA, voted for Gus Hall in 1976. Hall was the CPUSA candidate for president. So much for control of the communists. They are alive and well all around us.


Yup

And he even said he was sweating that question.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290700
07/30/18 08:25 PM
07/30/18 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
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Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
White


It's being made a big deal again it today's political world. His voting for communist party that is. Where it leads who knows. But one can hope that things are straightened out.

Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6290705
07/30/18 08:29 PM
07/30/18 08:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: white17
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
With how screwed up the medical industry is I may be able to support single payer health care if it was ran by each individual state and not a federal program, dont think that quite makes me a full fledged socialist though...



How would you pay for it ?


I will start out by saying I do not have a full understanding of the medical system, I feel if I studied it for 10 hours a day for 6 months I would have a elementary understanding of it, it is such a complex field that I think it is arrogance for most people to suggest they have all the answers on how to fix the issues in that field me included.

Now that my disclaimer is out of the way I will move on to the question. Firstly you would need to force cost down, the $30 dollar Tylenol and $629 dollar band aids cannot be allowed to go on, prices would need to be negotiated and standardized between hospitals and the state, in addition to standardized pricing which should lower cost you would also be able to cut out the billing department which at present is basically entire wings of hospitals because of the huge amount of paper work that goes along with billing all the different insurance plans. In another cost saving attempt I would limit doctors and hospitals liability, lawsuits are to common due to the emotions involved in sickness and death this drives malpractice insurance through the roof which is then passed on to other customers. Now we know the average health care cost per individual over their lifetime is 316,000 dollars which means it would cost someone about 8,000 dollars per year for 40 years to fund their health care cost for the entirety of their life, now if we went single payer I am assuming we could match other first world countries in price which is about half of our cost per person which would leave us needing to fund 4,000 per year per person. To raise that 4,000 a year medicaid could be dissolved and social security could be shrunk/diverted to health care, other state run programs could also be cut (food stamps etc).

At present my main problem is that medical cost are driven by insurance and are out of control, spending twice as much as other countries for our medical is ridiculous. If there are better ways to sort it out I am all ears.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290709
07/30/18 08:36 PM
07/30/18 08:36 PM
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North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Take away congress's lifetime premium 'special' healthcare and have them get the same as everyone else and you will see some changes in what everyone else has a choice of.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290714
07/30/18 08:42 PM
07/30/18 08:42 PM
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Posts: 6,182
Central Oregon
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AntiGov Offline OP
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Central Oregon
Donner

Health care is a disaster because of government involvement

For healthcare to not be a disaster , government would have to have no involvement


Report a post club - Non member


Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290715
07/30/18 08:43 PM
07/30/18 08:43 PM
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Arkansas
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J Staton Offline
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Cut insurance both private/govt out of the equation. Let the patient/doctor negotiate the price.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290718
07/30/18 08:44 PM
07/30/18 08:44 PM
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Posts: 12,721
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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williamsburg ks
Quote:
For healthcare to not be a disaster , government would have to have no involvement


government is providing for our general welfare


Ban private vehicles now. They are killing too much wildlife and too many children.
Re: Socialism [Re: danny clifton] #6290726
07/30/18 08:50 PM
07/30/18 08:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,182
Central Oregon
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AntiGov Offline OP
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Central Oregon
Originally Posted By: danny clifton
Quote:
For healthcare to not be a disaster , government would have to have no involvement


government is providing for our general welfare



And yet , people still can't figure out why it's a mess


Report a post club - Non member


Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290739
07/30/18 09:02 PM
07/30/18 09:02 PM
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Posts: 1,422
Idaho Falls, ID
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Furvor Offline
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Idaho Falls, ID
Capitalism is a risk/reward system. You take the risk. You get the reward.
Socialism is a risk/reward system. You take the risk. Others get the reward.
Of course, Karl Marx never described his labor theory of value that way.
Socialism sounds too good to be true and it is not true. It assumes there is no such thing as free loaders.

Last edited by Furvor; 07/30/18 11:24 PM.

Retired financial analyst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6290981
07/31/18 07:49 AM
07/31/18 07:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,308
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
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Riverotter2 Offline
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Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Seem like the word Socialist is always tacked onto wonderful people and their organizations.

Hitlers National Socialist German Workers Party

Lenin's Democratic Socialist Party

Carl Marx

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders -- Socialist Democrats of the good old U.S.A.

Seem like more of this Socialist crap led to more death, death death then free, free, free in the long run don't it.

Re: Socialism [Re: virgil1972] #6291154
07/31/18 11:49 AM
07/31/18 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: virgil1972
I agree that many of the people don't even know what is socialism really is and means. They think you can have all that free stuff, not have high taxes, and keep your freedoms.


And it doesn't cost anybody anything. It's the "Money Grows On Trees" fantasy.


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: danny clifton] #6291161
07/31/18 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
Quote:
For healthcare to not be a disaster , government would have to have no involvement


government is providing for our general welfare
grin


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291165
07/31/18 12:05 PM
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Donner, you have it backwards. The cost of insurance is driven by the high cost of medical services. You said it yourself, $30 Tylenol, $629 band-aids, etc. How do you think that influences insurance premiums?


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291215
07/31/18 01:26 PM
07/31/18 01:26 PM
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Pretty sure that $30 aspirin and the $4 catchup paper cup in comes in is from the many that never pay their own bills and use the ER like a free clinic all of the time.


That meth head from the other day will end up with a bill easily over a quarter million dollars when it's over just to go out and do it again first chance they get. Never had a steady job in their life and State is paying for the kids just a never ending story.


I often wondered if coverage did not drop and the costs went up with Obummercare to keep from having to give it away if it was offered on a payed policy? Many people only see the price hike and don't consider the coverage lost at the same time as a loss. Preventive care is a shadow of what it was at one time with many basic tests and labs not being covered, 15 years ago I paid $20 for a Dr. visit and the policy coverage paid $120 now that is reversed.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291269
07/31/18 03:19 PM
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Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291270
07/31/18 03:21 PM
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Just like anything else. Get govt out and prices will fall. Just the paperwork alone required by govt would probably drop medical cost in half.

Then you price people based off life style and life choices they are making. Vs charging everyone the same

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291278
07/31/18 03:29 PM
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A big problem is that government involvement is driven by lobbyists representing interest such as the pharmaceutical industry, energy industry, mega banking industry, corporate farmers, etc............. Our elected officials are bought and paid for before they ever make it to Washington D.C.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291321
07/31/18 04:32 PM
07/31/18 04:32 PM
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Yep the big push to stop pharmaceutical drugs from Canada is not a safety issue as much as a competition problem with special interest groups, so who are they really looking out for it sure is not the little guy!



Last edited by Law Dog; 07/31/18 04:45 PM.

Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Trapper7] #6291409
07/31/18 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Trapper7
Donner, you have it backwards. The cost of insurance is driven by the high cost of medical services. You said it yourself, $30 Tylenol, $629 band-aids, etc. How do you think that influences insurance premiums?


It is a two way street, I am not a fan of Adam Ruins everything but I think this clip explains it reasonably well, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeDOQpfaUc8

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291446
07/31/18 07:30 PM
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I think that it should be required for all services and pharmaceuticals priced up front and publicly posted so people can shop .

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6291907
08/01/18 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Trapper7
Donner, you have it backwards. The cost of insurance is driven by the high cost of medical services. You said it yourself, $30 Tylenol, $629 band-aids, etc. How do you think that influences insurance premiums?


It is a two way street, I am not a fan of Adam Ruins everything but I think this clip explains it reasonably well, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeDOQpfaUc8


You really base your opinion on a TV reality show? The way this reality show explains discounts allotted to insurance companies doesn't happen. Insurance companies set maximum payments on procedures for all doctors and hospitals unless there are extenuating circumstances. They do this to try to hold insurance costs down. Common sense indicates that insurance companies aren't a charity as some think they should be. But, like any other business, they are in business to make a profit.


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: Riverotter2] #6291913
08/01/18 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Riverotter2
Seem like the word Socialist is always tacked onto wonderful people and their organizations.

Hitlers National Socialist German Workers Party

Lenin's Democratic Socialist Party

Carl Marx

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders -- Socialist Democrats of the good old U.S.A.

Seem like more of this Socialist crap led to more death, death death then free, free, free in the long run don't it.



LOL, have you ever listened to that ocasio-Cortez woman? WOW WOW WOW!

And to think, the DNC says she's the new face of their party! lol

I did notice that after he interview with M. Hoover on PBS, they musta told her to sit in the corner until november.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291950
08/01/18 01:01 PM
08/01/18 01:01 PM
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A Canadian province has ditched a universal basic income welfare program after the government found it was not sustainable, making it the latest around the globe to scrap the plan.

The move comes as several American cities flirt with bringing the scheme to the U.S.

Ontarios new conservative government this week said it would end the pilot program, which gave free government funds to people in low-paying jobs -- instead of welfare benefits -- in the region to test whether the money helped to improve health, education and housing.


The government reportedly called the plan expensive and not sustainable. Lisa MacLeod, the Ontario minister for social services told The Guardian that the program was clearly not the answer for Ontario families.

Ontarios decision comes on the heels of Finlands decision to scrap its own test of universal basic income. Finlands program gave 560 Euros ($584) to 2,000 unemployed Finnish citizens per month, with no requirement to find a paying job. Earlier this year however, Finland decided not to extend the funding to the program.

Even as Canadian and European plans failed, U.S. cities are still pushing to test the scheme.

Stockton, Calif. Is set to become the first in the U.S. to take on the experiment, with a plan to pay 100 residents $500 a month without any conditions. The programs purpose is to eventually ensure that no one in Stockton, with a population of 300,000, lives in poverty. The receivers of the cash will be able to spend the money on anything they want without any rules or regulations.

Stocktons plan is slated to launch by 2019, and the tested resident pool will receive the funds for a full 18 months as a trial phase before being rolled out across the city.

Also in California, a startup, Y Combinator, based in Oakland, is giving out $1,500 a month to randomly selected residents.

Chicago is also weighing up the option of introducing the program, which would make it the largest city in the U.S. to get on board.

Alderman Ameya Pawar recently proposed the legislation, which would provide 1,000 families with a $500 monthly stipend no questions asked.


Pawars bill already has the backing of the majority of city lawmakers, and Pawar hopes to soon work with Mayor Rahm Emanuel to implement the pilot program, The Intercept reported.

Nearly 70 percent of Americans dont have $1,000 in the bank for an emergency, Pawar told the outlet. UBI could be an incredible benefit for people who are working and are having a tough time making ends meet or putting food on the table at the end of the month.

A 2017 Pew Research Center study found that 60 percent of Americans favor the government providing a guaranteed income that would allow them to meet their basic needs, as workers with a high school diploma were the most likely to support a universal basic income at 65 percent, and workers with a four-year college education or more at 52 percent.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/...experiment.html


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1. humble/inquisitive enough to learn from all sources: young & old, near & far, written & verbal
2. Legends in their own Minds
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291975
08/01/18 01:48 PM
08/01/18 01:48 PM
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The more 'aid' is given the more aid seekers will flock to the area. It's like trying to plug a leaking dike with your finger. Best current examples are California, the U.S./Mexico border, and the Afro rush overwhelming European countries. Folks assume its easier to move to where milk and honey are almost free than to fix their homeland governments.

Last edited by Furvor; 08/01/18 01:59 PM.

Retired financial analyst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6291985
08/01/18 02:23 PM
08/01/18 02:23 PM
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When the well runs dry there will be quite the dilemma in Europe and America..... laugh


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292119
08/01/18 05:59 PM
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[/quote]"You really base your opinion on a TV reality show? The way this reality show explains discounts allotted to insurance companies doesn't happen. Insurance companies set maximum payments on procedures for all doctors and hospitals unless there are extenuating circumstances. They do this to try to hold insurance costs down. Common sense indicates that insurance companies aren't a charity as some think they should be. But, like any other business, they are in business to make a profit."[/quote]

I wrote a pretty detailed post to which I received a few one sentence replies, in my follow up to these one sentence replies I put a clip to a show that I said was not very good, now you are accusing me of basing my opinion off of said clip, no you want a worth while reply respond in more detail to my original post, maybe give solutions not just critique.

Any industry that depends on insurance will have high rates, get a quote on having roofing or siding done, now get quotes after a storm when your insurance is going to pay for it and you will notice they are much higher than if you had to pay out of pocket, this same thing happens in medical, you have to be daft not to see that.

Last edited by Donnersurvivor; 08/01/18 06:02 PM.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292211
08/01/18 07:40 PM
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I had 8o% insurance when I we had our youngest son . My brother in law had cash in hand and price shopped a little when they had their daughter three years after my son . we compaired money spent and he payed $800 more than my 20% I had to pay out of pocket . They had much better care with a single room . Any insurance that isn't 100% is a jip because they charge so much more if your insured .

Last edited by Bigfoot; 08/01/18 07:43 PM.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292222
08/01/18 07:57 PM
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I would like a bunch of free stuff.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Socialism [Re: Bigfoot] #6292311
08/01/18 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bigfoot
I had 8o% insurance when I we had our youngest son . My brother in law had cash in hand and price shopped a little when they had their daughter three years after my son . we compaired money spent and he payed $800 more than my 20% I had to pay out of pocket . They had much better care with a single room . Any insurance that isn't 100% is a jip because they charge so much more if your insured .


This is every industry that insurance is part of, I do not expect insurance to run as a charity but when our healthcare is double most first world nations something is wrong.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6292324
08/01/18 09:29 PM
08/01/18 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Bigfoot
I had 8o% insurance when I we had our youngest son . My brother in law had cash in hand and price shopped a little when they had their daughter three years after my son . we compaired money spent and he payed $800 more than my 20% I had to pay out of pocket . They had much better care with a single room . Any insurance that isn't 100% is a jip because they charge so much more if your insured .


This is every industry that insurance is part of, I do not expect insurance to run as a charity but when our healthcare is double most first world nations something is wrong.


How many of those first world nations have tort reform? Or a version thereof?

Osky


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Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292329
08/01/18 09:35 PM
08/01/18 09:35 PM
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Is there really another first world nation ??


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: upstateNY] #6292330
08/01/18 09:36 PM
08/01/18 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: upstateNY
I would like a bunch of free stuff.


Let me know if that works out and I will join ya.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292356
08/01/18 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: AntiGov


Great topic.

Because it seems so easy. Much easier than acquiring skill and working and taking risk and all that entails.

IMO politicians are to blame, FDR to begin with because the new deal enabled the mindset. But also, parents. How many times have we heard a teary eyed parent lament that they don't want their kid to struggle like they did. So overcompensation occurs and kids are not prepared to struggle. Then when the bottom falls out the only answer is life is not fair and gov't needs to equalize the outcome. I've been guilty of that myself - but that struggle thing, that's critical to learning how to succeed. Kids today can't fail and learn, it's fail and quit.

Generally speaking of course.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292380
08/01/18 10:34 PM
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The young socialists are sort of like hippies,they like the carefree bohemian lifestyle.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292402
08/01/18 11:00 PM
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One key point I believe is that those in our society that support socialism or socialistic programs is that they have absolutely no comprehension of the end game.


Report a post club - Non member


Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6292425
08/01/18 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: white17
Is there really another first world nation ??
is that a serious question? Australia, every Nordic country, Canada...

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292442
08/02/18 03:20 AM
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I think AntiGov says it right about the end game. How many times have people set up small scale communes with pie in the sky ideals? They always fail.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292563
08/02/18 08:21 AM
08/02/18 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: AntiGov
One key point I believe is that those in our society that support socialism or socialistic programs is that they have absolutely no comprehension of the end game.




That's the majority of the world really most people struggle to see past their own noses let alone looking 3 steps ahead today. The lions share consume and have little clue where it all comes from, only a few produce what we all need.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292611
08/02/18 09:35 AM
08/02/18 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: AntiGov
One key point I believe is that those in our society that support socialism or socialistic programs is that they have absolutely no comprehension of the end game.



I think the same can be said for libertarians.

Re: Socialism [Re: Law Dog] #6292626
08/02/18 09:51 AM
08/02/18 09:51 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted By: Law Dog
Originally Posted By: AntiGov
One key point I believe is that those in our society that support socialism or socialistic programs is that they have absolutely no comprehension of the end game.




That's the majority of the world really most people struggle to see past their own noses let alone looking 3 steps ahead today. The lions share consume and have little clue where it all comes from, only a few produce what we all need.


The socialist thinking is that it is unfair that somebody had an idea first and capitalized on it or taking someone else's idea, making it better and taking all the reward. The whole "You didn't build that."


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6292632
08/02/18 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: AntiGov
One key point I believe is that those in our society that support socialism or socialistic programs is that they have absolutely no comprehension of the end game.



I think the same can be said for libertarians.

Sure it can be said, don't mean it's accurate lol.


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292634
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Re: Socialism [Re: Catch22] #6292636
08/02/18 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Catch22
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor


I think the same can be said for libertarians.

Sure it can be said, don't mean it's accurate lol.


The libertarian end game has already played out in this country in the 1800s, a few huge players end up owning everything with the majority living in poverty. There needs to be some government controls that prevent monopolies and insane amounts of wealth inequality that result in rich and poor classes with little middle class.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292654
08/02/18 10:53 AM
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Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6292673
08/02/18 11:22 AM
08/02/18 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Bigfoot
I had 8o% insurance when I we had our youngest son . My brother in law had cash in hand and price shopped a little when they had their daughter three years after my son . we compaired money spent and he payed $800 more than my 20% I had to pay out of pocket . They had much better care with a single room . Any insurance that isn't 100% is a jip because they charge so much more if your insured .


This is every industry that insurance is part of, I do not expect insurance to run as a charity but when our healthcare is double most first world nations something is wrong.


Then why do we have so many people coming to America for our healthcare? It's because it's the best in the world and for some it's free and these are the ones who use it for the tiniest malady.

Keep in mind that when you are catering to people who are getting free healthcare, somebody's got to pay for it. It will drive the cost of healthcare higher which will make insurance rates go up as well.


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: Trapper7] #6292680
08/02/18 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Trapper7


Then why do we have so many people coming to America for our healthcare? It's because it's the best in the world and for some it's free and these are the ones who use it for the tiniest malady.

Keep in mind that when you are catering to people who are getting free healthcare, somebody's got to pay for it. It will drive the cost of healthcare higher which will make insurance rates go up as well.


To be fair many Americans are also going overseas or to Mexico for cheaper healthcare because they cannot afford it here even with insurance. I have stated I am all ears if someone has a solution for healthcare in our country but first we need to accept certain aspects of it (price) are not working. Simply stating the GOVT is the problem with healthcare may be partially true but to think GOVT involvement is the only thing driving cost is a poor assumption.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292762
08/02/18 01:27 PM
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Central, SD
You don't see Bernie giving up his wealth do you? LOL Ponzi scam is all it is, your still going to have the haves and the have nots just more of the have nots if hard work will get you nothing more then the guys not willing to work. Just a big incentive killer.


Libertarians talk a good game and somehow free range people will get it all done but never have I heard how all that gets done and by who yet?


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292764
08/02/18 01:31 PM
08/02/18 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,069
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,069
North East Kansas
There are a few around here who still have Bernie bumper stickers on their vehicles. they are pretty much well intentioned morons.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292767
08/02/18 01:36 PM
08/02/18 01:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Healthcare only cost the people that have worked for something that they are not willing to lose, if you have nothing to your name you will get all of the healthcare you need and never have to pay for it! If you have no property, savings or credit to worry about your in the free healthcare business and can use the ER like a office visit.


Run up all of the bills you want we don't have debtors prisons any more, they will just file a lean on future incomes or transactions they might recoup money from. Piece of cake drink do drugs and smoke all you want your still getting it for free!


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6292800
08/02/18 02:41 PM
08/02/18 02:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,408
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Trapper7 Offline
trapper
Trapper7  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,408
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Trapper7


Then why do we have so many people coming to America for our healthcare? It's because it's the best in the world and for some it's free and these are the ones who use it for the tiniest malady.

Keep in mind that when you are catering to people who are getting free healthcare, somebody's got to pay for it. It will drive the cost of healthcare higher which will make insurance rates go up as well.


To be fair many Americans are also going overseas or to Mexico for cheaper healthcare because they cannot afford it here even with insurance. I have stated I am all ears if someone has a solution for healthcare in our country but first we need to accept certain aspects of it (price) are not working. Simply stating the GOVT is the problem with healthcare may be partially true but to think GOVT involvement is the only thing driving cost is a poor assumption.


Most of those going to Mexico are going because they don't have healthcare or are being baited by some new miracle drug that will cure their ailment. Steve McQueen is a good example to Mexico for a drug made from apricot seeds. Research later learned that this was all a hoax.

Part of the reason for the crazy prices are too much free healthcare, pharmaceutical companies charging exorbitant prices stating research costs, etc.

How do you think hospitals, doctors and insurance companies are supposed to make up for the government-mandated free healthcare? Low income people that qualify can get Medical Assistance (MA). It covers everything from a stubbed toe to open heart surgery. I know a single mother who is on it. She has gone into emergency for things like morning sickness, cut finger, headaches, bloody nose, etc. I have health insurance. I've never gone in for any of those things. Know why she does? Answer: Because it's free!

The single payer system or government-run healthcare isn't the answer. Just look at the mess government has made with medicare and social security. Social security is one of the poorest returns on an investment system ever seen and yet it seems every year we keep hearing about how it's about to go broke and how they can't give a cost of living increase because the money isn't there this year.


Scientists say there are 1 million ants for every human on earth. No, I don't know who counted them.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292834
08/02/18 03:45 PM
08/02/18 03:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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MN
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292841
08/02/18 03:59 PM
08/02/18 03:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Covered under Medicaid!


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Marty] #6292846
08/02/18 04:06 PM
08/02/18 04:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,079
ny
U
upstateNY Offline
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upstateNY  Offline
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U

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Posts: 7,079
ny
Originally Posted By: Marty
Originally Posted By: upstateNY
I would like a bunch of free stuff.


Let me know if that works out and I will join ya.
LOL I cant afford any more free stuff.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6292848
08/02/18 04:07 PM
08/02/18 04:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 686
Lincoln County, Missouri
ol' dad Offline
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Lincoln County, Missouri
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


I must have forgotten what amendment it was that grants people the right to free healthcare.

ol'dad


Criminals should be thankful for law enforcement. It's the alternative to getting shot
Re: Socialism [Re: Marty] #6292877
08/02/18 04:48 PM
08/02/18 04:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,502
Wheaton Ks
L
lee steinmeyer Offline
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Wheaton Ks
Originally Posted By: Marty
There are a few around here who still have Bernie bumper stickers on their vehicles. they are pretty much well intentioned morons.



Yeah, and they are all connected to the dang college down there Marty. They are teaching our kids the wrong things.....and have been for many years. Years of indoctrination from lib professors that we have not been able to combat. And every year it starts earlier in our school systems. We need a plan to take our education system away from these jackwads!


Now officially an old fart
http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Anything can happen when your trappin!
Re: Socialism [Re: lee steinmeyer] #6292887
08/02/18 04:59 PM
08/02/18 04:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,105
Indiana
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brianmall Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted By: lee steinmeyer
Originally Posted By: Marty
There are a few around here who still have Bernie bumper stickers on their vehicles. they are pretty much well intentioned morons.



Yeah, and they are all connected to the dang college down there Marty. They are teaching our kids the wrong things.....and have been for many years. Years of indoctrination from lib professors that we have not been able to combat. And every year it starts earlier in our school systems. We need a plan to take our education system away from these jackwads!


Home school

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6292889
08/02/18 05:03 PM
08/02/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Central, SD
What I hate is you drive by a hospital and all them dead people piled up outside that could not be seen for no insurance! Oh wait come to think of it I have never seen that, Never mind. LOL wink


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293309
08/03/18 08:13 AM
08/03/18 08:13 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,809
michigan,USA
S
seniortrap Offline
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,809
michigan,USA
Quote:
brianmall: Since its passing, it has never been enforced due to the weakness of the party, but still remains a law, never ruled unconstitutional or repealed.


Its still illegal to have here. But as usual, the D.C. politicians won't do much of anything at all times. Maybe too many communists in there (Democrats)??????


Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers

"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction."
"After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
Re: Socialism [Re: ol' dad] #6293455
08/03/18 11:37 AM
08/03/18 11:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Posts: 257
MN
Originally Posted By: ol' dad
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


I must have forgotten what amendment it was that grants people the right to free healthcare.

ol'dad


Again, what is the realistic solution? Remember we need to get enough people to vote in representatives to pass that solution, so what are we to do to fix this?

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293457
08/03/18 11:40 AM
08/03/18 11:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,685
pa
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hippie Offline
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Posts: 6,685
pa
No one is denied healthcare in the U.S. Donner, so get that out of your head.

Hospitals here have this posted on their doors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act


Last edited by hippie; 08/03/18 11:46 AM.
Re: Socialism [Re: hippie] #6293474
08/03/18 12:14 PM
08/03/18 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: hippie
No one is denied healthcare in the U.S. Donner, so get that out of your head.

Hospitals here have this posted on their doors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act



I never said anyone was did I? I said healthcare is to expensive the replies to that were "to many people us it for free" I understand and agree with that, my question is then so what are we going to do to get prices under control? Are we going to start denying health care to those who cant afford it? Are we going to let people die outside of hospitals? Obviously that is not going to happen so again what is the solution? How do we make healthcare affordable? I truly do not like government involvement so give me a good answer and I will switch sides in a second but first I need to know how to fix the problem of unaffordable healthcare.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293478
08/03/18 12:18 PM
08/03/18 12:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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pa
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hippie Offline
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Maybe i misunderstood your statement, "Denying healthcare to single poor single mothers who can't pay is not a realistic solution".

Denying healthcare i don't see happening in the U.S. ever.


Last edited by hippie; 08/03/18 12:25 PM.
Re: Socialism [Re: hippie] #6293486
08/03/18 12:31 PM
08/03/18 12:31 PM
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Posts: 257
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: hippie
Maybe i misunderstood your statement, "Denying healthcare to single poor single mothers who can't pay is not a realistic solution".

Denying healthcare i don't see happening in the U.S. ever.



As long as we let women vote we are going to have health care for all, I can guarantee it. So my question is how do we make it affordable? Right now people are basically forced into jobs that they hate simply because it is the only way to afford health insurance. If you have a family and some savings you cannot quit your job to start a business because your family will lose health insurance, farmers have to work a off the job farm just to afford health insurance, the prices for medical care are outrageous and we need to get them under control otherwise we will become equivalent to coal miners of old paying in scrip at the company store and never being able to afford to leave.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293491
08/03/18 12:39 PM
08/03/18 12:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,069
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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North East Kansas
The 'poor' woman on welfare not only gets more $ by having another kid that she can not afford to raise but the whole hospital bill is paid for by the taxpayer...kid is raised on taxpayer $....food, housing, clothes, medical expenses, and the list goes on.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293495
08/03/18 12:48 PM
08/03/18 12:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,351
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
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Kart29  Offline
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Hancock Co., Indiana
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


The way you phrase it "denying health care to poor single mothers..." makes it sound like somebody desires to prevent somebody else from getting healthcare. It makes it sound like the people in authority have a free will choice to decide who gets health care and who doesn't. I disagree with the very foundational concept that it is within the power of government or society to determine to whom they will grant health care services and to whom they will not. That's just starting off from a wrong foundation - which is where most of our society typically is.

"Ugly truth, freedom rings". Nobody deserves health care. If I or anyone else wants healthcare we should be free to go buy it at our own expense. We should not expect anyone else to buy it for us.

I will guarantee you that part of the reason we have so many single-parent families and children born outside of marriage is because our society has ameliorated most of the negative consequences of making babies outside of marriage. If it weren't for welfare programs, women would be much more reluctant to have babies without a committed husband. And maybe boys would grow start growing up to be real men if they weren't getting all the milk for free.

I'm very much in favor of charity and taking care of the widows, orphans, and other needy. But handling this through the force of government is morally wrong. It's just flat WRONG. There's nothing honorable about it any way. When we as a society do things that are WRONG, there are negative consequences.


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel’'s hands.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293497
08/03/18 12:51 PM
08/03/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,069
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,069
North East Kansas
Man living in the house = not as much government $.

Having unwed babies is a profession in some places.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293504
08/03/18 12:54 PM
08/03/18 12:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
I don't think anybody would have a problem with these programs but it's the rampant abuse of the system many people have a problem with! Welfare in many places is a career now and it taught as a way of life. Many won't improve themselves for fear of losing the free stuff what a cycle of thinking that must be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JG71gZjzz4

Last edited by Law Dog; 08/03/18 12:59 PM.

Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Kart29] #6293508
08/03/18 01:02 PM
08/03/18 01:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: Kart29
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


The way you phrase it "denying health care to poor single mothers..." makes it sound like somebody desires to prevent somebody else from getting healthcare. It makes it sound like the people in authority have a free will choice to decide who gets health care and who doesn't. I disagree with the very foundational concept that it is within the power of government or society to determine to whom they will grant health care services and to whom they will not. That's just starting off from a wrong foundation - which is where most of our society typically is.

"Ugly truth, freedom rings". Nobody deserves health care. If I or anyone else wants healthcare we should be free to go buy it at our own expense. We should not expect anyone else to buy it for us.

I will guarantee you that part of the reason we have so many single-parent families and children born outside of marriage is because our society has ameliorated most of the negative consequences of making babies outside of marriage. If it weren't for welfare programs, women would be much more reluctant to have babies without a committed husband. And maybe boys would grow start growing up to be real men if they weren't getting all the milk for free.

I'm very much in favor of charity and taking care of the widows, orphans, and other needy. But handling this through the force of government is morally wrong. It's just flat WRONG. There's nothing honorable about it any way. When we as a society do things that are WRONG, there are negative consequences.


X2 Well said !


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293513
08/03/18 01:07 PM
08/03/18 01:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,863
perry co.Pa
wetdog Offline
trapper
wetdog  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,863
perry co.Pa
Do the math on free health care for all.
They say 30 trillion over 10 years
360 million people in the us
The math says 8200$ for everyone to get free health care a year
Now take out the kids who are not old enough to work,disabled people,and career bums(protester's)
Now the working class will have to pay appoxamitly
30,000$ each to provide health care for all
And that's just the health care for a year
Add in free schools
No thanks I will pay my bill you pay yours

Last edited by wetdog; 08/03/18 01:13 PM. Reason: Old eyes
Re: Socialism [Re: Kart29] #6293514
08/03/18 01:10 PM
08/03/18 01:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Posts: 257
MN
Originally Posted By: Kart29
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


The way you phrase it "denying health care to poor single mothers..." makes it sound like somebody desires to prevent somebody else from getting healthcare. It makes it sound like the people in authority have a free will choice to decide who gets health care and who doesn't. I disagree with the very foundational concept that it is within the power of government or society to determine to whom they will grant health care services and to whom they will not. That's just starting off from a wrong foundation - which is where most of our society typically is.

"Ugly truth, freedom rings". Nobody deserves health care. If I or anyone else wants healthcare we should be free to go buy it at our own expense. We should not expect anyone else to buy it for us.

I will guarantee you that part of the reason we have so many single-parent families and children born outside of marriage is because our society has ameliorated most of the negative consequences of making babies outside of marriage. If it weren't for welfare programs, women would be much more reluctant to have babies without a committed husband. And maybe boys would grow start growing up to be real men if they weren't getting all the milk for free.

I'm very much in favor of charity and taking care of the widows, orphans, and other needy. But handling this through the force of government is morally wrong. It's just flat WRONG. There's nothing honorable about it any way. When we as a society do things that are WRONG, there are negative consequences.


I agree with pretty much all of what you said, I dont even want women to vote because I feel they tend to favor the collective over individual rights, or they favor the collective "humans" over their country people. However I also do not feel that it is right if your kid falls off his bike and breaks his leg and he has a simple surgery and a night in the hospital that it should warrant a bill that is the equivalent the average price of a house that takes most people 30 years to pay for. I do not want to see people forced into being corporate wage slaves just to afford health insurance for their family, we need to get medical prices under control and the only way I can see that happening is with single payer.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293516
08/03/18 01:12 PM
08/03/18 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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MN
My phrasing of "Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution." was meant to be read exactly as it was written, it is not a realistic option because of the feelings of the voting populace, it was not meant to convey my personal feelings on the subject.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293529
08/03/18 01:38 PM
08/03/18 01:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
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Central, SD
You would be shocked the amount of aid one family can consume in their lifetime it is in the millions for some and in the end they still have nothing and is just passing on the lifestyle to many of their children to continue the tradition.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Law Dog] #6293533
08/03/18 01:45 PM
08/03/18 01:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: Law Dog
You would be shocked the amount of aid one family can consume in their lifetime it is in the millions for some and in the end they still have nothing and is just passing on the lifestyle to many of their children to continue the tradition.


The last couple years of his life my step brother used millions of dollars of public assistance, mainly rehab/halfway house type programs which are incredibly expensive. In the end he died as you would expect a addict to. It is unfortunate we cannot put our loser drunks/addicts on the "America boat" like Europe used to. As harsh as it is part of my would be fine with the Filipino method of just shooting drug dealers.

Re: Socialism [Re: wetdog] #6293574
08/03/18 02:40 PM
08/03/18 02:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: wetdog
Do the math on free health care for all.
They say 30 trillion over 10 years
360 million people in the us
The math says 8200$ for everyone to get free health care a year
Now take out the kids who are not old enough to work,disabled people,and career bums(protester's)
Now the working class will have to pay appoxamitly
30,000$ each to provide health care for all
And that's just the health care for a year
Add in free schools
No thanks I will pay my bill you pay yours


In countries with similar levels of care the cost are around $4,000 per year. That is my problem, we need cost to get under control because right now it is obscene, I would gladly trade state sponsored indoctrination errr "education" for state sponsored health care if that was a option.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293577
08/03/18 02:43 PM
08/03/18 02:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,511
McGrath, AK
Why would you think state sponsored health care would turn out any better than state sponsored education ?


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293578
08/03/18 02:46 PM
08/03/18 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,137
Central, SD
In some cases the guy buying a new boat or gun won't go in for a check up because it cost so much! LOL


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293596
08/03/18 03:28 PM
08/03/18 03:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,995
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Online happy
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Online Happy
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,995
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


Bring back the draft. Medical professionals that become government property will treat those without insurance. They would not treat those who have insurance through their employers or those that can afford insurance themselves.

Those without insurance would be subject to extreme getting to get on military bases for treatment but a small price to pay for free healthcare.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6293599
08/03/18 03:32 PM
08/03/18 03:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 257
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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MN
Originally Posted By: white17
Why would you think state sponsored health care would turn out any better than state sponsored education ?

Because of potential indoctrination the state should never be allowed to control mandatory education, in addition not everyone has children that will use the education system, a man who chooses to not have kids should not be taxed to pay for the education of a man who sired 12 kids. Education is also not something that is needed at a moments notice, you will not die if you do not sign on the dotted line because you need education, you have time to evaluate your options and make choices accordingly and within your budget. With advances in technology it is very possibly to gain a education from home using the internet, those who value education could still gain a quality education even if they were low income simply by going to class online.

Everyone uses health care and due to the nature of needing to immediately address a injury you do not have time to evaluate your choices, you may not even be conscious, this allows a very predatory pricing model to be exploited by predatory corporate interest which help to drive prices towards unaffordability.

Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293600
08/03/18 03:35 PM
08/03/18 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


Bring back the draft. Medical professionals that become government property will treat those without insurance. They would not treat those who have insurance through their employers or those that can afford insurance themselves.

Those without insurance would be subject to extreme getting to get on military bases for treatment but a small price to pay for free healthcare.


Yikes.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293602
08/03/18 03:40 PM
08/03/18 03:40 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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You will get better care than price controlling when the quality medical professionals lockout government care.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 03:41 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

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Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293606
08/03/18 03:51 PM
08/03/18 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
You will get better care than price controlling when the quality medical professionals lockout government care.


Have medical professionals been able to successfully lockout government anywhere single payer has been instituted? Medical professionals and their pay is not the driving force behind medical cost, it is administration and corporate interest that are the driving forces of cost.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293653
08/03/18 04:57 PM
08/03/18 04:57 PM
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You don't think the best doctors are only going to service those that can pay?

Or

Are you talking about the government mandating that they service everyone and take whatever the government is paying?


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293654
08/03/18 05:00 PM
08/03/18 05:00 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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My father-in-law is the mechanic the mechanics take their cars to. He works on cars based on who can pay. Turns away folks all the time. Does the government need to jump in that and make him work on everybody's car regardless if they can afford it or not?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 05:00 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293658
08/03/18 05:09 PM
08/03/18 05:09 PM
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North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Saying that someone should die because they are financially challenged is a touchy topic.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293661
08/03/18 05:13 PM
08/03/18 05:13 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 05:15 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293676
08/03/18 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.


You are the only one talking about forcing people to labor against their will. If a doctor does not want to work under a single payer system he does not have to, he can quit and we will replace him with another doctor. If we run low on doctors who do not want to work I am sure we can find some from overseas who would gladly gain residence and work as doctors in the U.S.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293678
08/03/18 05:39 PM
08/03/18 05:39 PM
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North East Kansas
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Seems to me that the whole health care system here is in need of overhaul. I do not know enough about what would work best but I can see how what we have is working.

Seems like there is lots of abuse by bottom feeders and not enough help for honest, hard workers.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293683
08/03/18 05:45 PM
08/03/18 05:45 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.


You are the only one talking about forcing people to labor against their will. If a doctor does not want to work under a single payer system he does not have to, he can quit and we will replace him with another doctor. If we run low on doctors who do not want to work I am sure we can find some from overseas who would gladly gain residence and work as doctors in the U.S.


So you can't be a doctor in a single payer system and work for a private individual?

What is your trade?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 05:45 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293695
08/03/18 06:03 PM
08/03/18 06:03 PM
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seniortrap Offline
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Quote:
Donnersurvivor:
If a doctor does not want to work under a single payer system he does not have to, he can quit and we will replace him with another doctor. If we run low on doctors who do not want to work I am sure we can find some from overseas who would gladly gain residence and work as doctors in the U.S.


When was the last time you talked to an American doctor????


Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers

"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction."
"After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293733
08/03/18 07:23 PM
08/03/18 07:23 PM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Maybe a Mexican doctor.

Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293741
08/03/18 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
So you can't be a doctor in a single payer system and work for a private individual?

What is your trade?


I think I originally misunderstood what you were trying to say. Of course some doctors could and would remain in the private sector, some people have this notion that if we went single payer there would be a lack of doctors, I dont see that being a problem.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293745
08/03/18 07:41 PM
08/03/18 07:41 PM
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Them DEM's have a plan on how to pay for all this!

Tax us at 90% and defund our military

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293746
08/03/18 07:42 PM
08/03/18 07:42 PM
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Indiana
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That's no joke!

It's been mentioned by two up and coming socialist and one career Dem in the last month

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293755
08/03/18 07:58 PM
08/03/18 07:58 PM
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South Central Wisconsin
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
So you can't be a doctor in a single payer system and work for a private individual?

What is your trade?


I think I originally misunderstood what you were trying to say. Of course some doctors could and would remain in the private sector, some people have this notion that if we went single payer there would be a lack of doctors, I dont see that being a problem.

Reminds me of an old song lyric. "The doctor said he's coming, but you got to pay in cash "


I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. O Lord please don't let me be misunderstood.
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293762
08/03/18 08:11 PM
08/03/18 08:11 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
So you can't be a doctor in a single payer system and work for a private individual?

What is your trade?


I think I originally misunderstood what you were trying to say. Of course some doctors could and would remain in the private sector, some people have this notion that if we went single payer there would be a lack of doctors, I dont see that being a problem.


There will be a shortage of quality doctors. Single payer system and you may very well be going to see muddyriverdog or whatever his handle is. He believes anybody can be a doctor.

Whether you want to believe it or not money is why most doctors are doctors.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 08:13 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293764
08/03/18 08:16 PM
08/03/18 08:16 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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If you are smart enough to be a doctor you are smart enough to do just about anything, and most will when there is not much of a living being a doctor.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 08:24 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293765
08/03/18 08:18 PM
08/03/18 08:18 PM
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Again I do not see doctors salary as being the primary driver of medical care cost, there is no reason they could not continue to receive very large salaries.

Last edited by Donnersurvivor; 08/03/18 08:18 PM.
Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293770
08/03/18 08:26 PM
08/03/18 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
If you are smart enough to be a doctor you are smart enough to just about anything, and most will when there is not much of a living being a doctor.

Yep. If you're bright enough to be a doctor, you're bright enough to know that lawsuits are where the real money is in the medical field. May as well go to law school.


I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. O Lord please don't let me be misunderstood.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293777
08/03/18 08:34 PM
08/03/18 08:34 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Again I do not see doctors salary as being the primary driver of medical care cost, there is no reason they could not continue to receive very large salaries.




Ok

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 08:37 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294138
08/04/18 10:07 AM
08/04/18 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Again I do not see doctors salary as being the primary driver of medical care cost, there is no reason they could not continue to receive very large salaries.



What do you think is the main driver of costs ?


I don't see doctors choosing to work for the feds when they could be in private practice. Consequently, that would mean that the government would have to quasi-force doctors into government service or out of private practice. I can see that happening by laws that limit what a doctor can charge or who he can see. Doesn't Canada have a similar set-up now...or used to. Seems to me, I remember reading that there is a two-tiered medical system in Canada. One system for government big wigs and hockey professionals, and another system for everyone else.


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294146
08/04/18 10:20 AM
08/04/18 10:20 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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I bet you lunch he will say those evil pill companies that should be doing research for free.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6294157
08/04/18 10:37 AM
08/04/18 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Again I do not see doctors salary as being the primary driver of medical care cost, there is no reason they could not continue to receive very large salaries.




Ok


Hobbie, I think he may be somewhat correct. Ask a doctor what he pays in malpractice insurance premiums. It won't take much math to discover who is getting rich.

8+ years of medical school

the cost of building a private practice

staffing that practice with educated people

buying/leasing state-of-the-art diagnostic/procedural equipment

Add all of that up. Then pay for malpractice insurance premiums and try to work a job where you are legally/ethically compelled to be available 24/7. And having your patients and friends armchair QB every decision you make... Doing everything right and still have people die under your care...

I'm not sure I could be persuaded to do it for 200K a year take-home.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294162
08/04/18 10:48 AM
08/04/18 10:48 AM
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And for what it's worth... I am NOT advocating for any government-run health care system.

There is no simple solution to solve all of the problems associated with medical care. Any solution to one variable will likely magnify the problems associated with one or more of the other variables.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294174
08/04/18 11:13 AM
08/04/18 11:13 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Your post suggest that the government could cap malpractice payouts immediately impacting costs.

Reducing eduction cost could possibly bring to light great doctors that couldn't afford to attend.

A couple wins right there, that could easily be remedied with a draft.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294179
08/04/18 11:18 AM
08/04/18 11:18 AM
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I'm not sure increasing government involvement is the answer to reducing government involvement.

The cost will still be there. It will just be redirected to a different place.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6294180
08/04/18 11:20 AM
08/04/18 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: white17
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Again I do not see doctors salary as being the primary driver of medical care cost, there is no reason they could not continue to receive very large salaries.



What do you think is the main driver of costs ?


I dont think looking at the main driver of cost is as important as looking at ways we can save on cost. Currently entire wings of hospitals are devoted to administration and billing due to the complexity of hundreds of different insurance options, single payer would axe these cost, malpractice insurance and legal cost are also enormous, when you deal with something as complex as a human mistakes will happen and we need to have a way to protect against them but allowing every emotional person who is upset about losing someone to drag a doctor or hospital into court is also a factor we can deal with by offering broader civil protections. Drug prices are another obvious problem, of course drug companies need to remain profitable so research can continue but do we need to offer such long patent protections on drugs? A EPI pen contains a few cents worth of epinephrine in a device that makes it quickly and easily deployable it is not exactly ground breaking technology yet due to the patent they charge $300 dollars for a device that without patent protection would likely cost $30 dollars, I see no reason we should continue to protect the monopoly of epi pens with a patent after this much time. Of course patients not paying for care is another reason for rising cost, I just fail to see how we protect against this.

Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6294181
08/04/18 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
I bet you lunch he will say those evil pill companies that should be doing research for free.


Have I given you the impression that I am a dye in the wool commie who drank the kool aid and now spews the official talking points? Or do I seem to be presenting what I know/believe in good faith asking for others opinions in a effort to gain knowledge to either change or solidify my opinion?

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294184
08/04/18 11:28 AM
08/04/18 11:28 AM
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Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294185
08/04/18 11:32 AM
08/04/18 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294186
08/04/18 11:35 AM
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As far as the Epi-Pen debacle... I agree. It's ridiculous. The epinephrine can't be patented, only the delivery mechanism can.

If someone can't develop a delivery device that doesn't infringe, but can compete, with what is already on the market we have some serious problems ahead of us.

If someone could invent a competitive product and market it at a much lower cost they would be a millionaire overnight.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294188
08/04/18 11:36 AM
08/04/18 11:36 AM
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If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.

Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294189
08/04/18 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
As far as the Epi-Pen debacle... I agree. It's ridiculous. The epinephrine can't be patented, only the delivery mechanism can.

If someone can't develop a delivery device that doesn't infringe, but can compete, with what is already on the market we have some serious problems ahead of us.

If someone could invent a competitive product and market it at a much lower cost they would be a millionaire overnight.

Mike

I freely admit I do not have all the answers and I would be happy to change my views if someone had a better way to lower cost. As of now health insurance is becoming the new "scrip", people are tied to their jobs because losing that job or starting your own business would mean losing your insurances. As Americans we love and promote freedom but if you are only left with the freedom to make bad decisions that being quit your job and lose your insurance or stay in a job you hate to keep your family protected then we need to reevaluate what is going on because being stuck in jobs that offer insurance is not freedom.

Re: Socialism [Re: virgil1972] #6294190
08/04/18 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: virgil1972
If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.


Or look at Japan who has first rate health care and has been single payer since the 60s.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294191
08/04/18 11:42 AM
08/04/18 11:42 AM
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.


What does the law state as far as providing health care to someone regardless of ability to pay? Common sense would tell me that it only applies to situations of immediate danger to life and health.

I don't have an issue with that.

But there must be some incentive for the person who receives that care to provide some sort of compensation for services rendered. As far as I know, turning any outstanding bills over for collection is the only choice most caregivers have.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294195
08/04/18 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
What does the law state as far as providing health care to someone regardless of ability to pay? Common sense would tell me that it only applies to situations of immediate danger to life and health.

I don't have an issue with that.


Mike


Hospitals must stabilize patients with life or limb threatening injuries regardless of ability to pay at the present.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294198
08/04/18 11:58 AM
08/04/18 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: virgil1972
If you want to see how single payer works look at the VA hospitals. Look at how it is in Canada with the wait times.


Or look at Japan who has first rate health care and has been single payer since the 60s.


I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294200
08/04/18 12:02 PM
08/04/18 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
I bet you lunch he will say those evil pill companies that should be doing research for free.


Have I given you the impression that I am a dye in the wool commie who drank the kool aid and now spews the official talking points? Or do I seem to be presenting what I know/believe in good faith asking for others opinions in a effort to gain knowledge to either change or solidify my opinion?


I would say mostly the latter, my apologies sir.


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Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294202
08/04/18 12:04 PM
08/04/18 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
Donner is there any other industry where you can NOT pay and still receive products or services?

(I'm not picking on you, but you brought up a good point of how we protect from that)

Mike


Not to my knowledge or at least nothing that immediately comes to mind. I do think we have to be aware of the unique problems health care has when we attempt to compare it to other goods and services though.


Credit card companies come to mind. They are shafted all the time and absorb that sting by charging low scorers higher interest rates.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294203
08/04/18 12:07 PM
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Good point Hobbie.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: Mike in A-town] #6294204
08/04/18 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


This is undoubtedly true, this is also why I said I would prefer a single payer system ran by the individual states as we have different politics etc throughout the country and keeping things "closer to home" would help alleviate tension and allow alterations within each system that better suited the populace.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294205
08/04/18 12:10 PM
08/04/18 12:10 PM
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Can't really do that as some states would end up with all the givers and others all the takers and the fed would have to bail the taker states out.

Poor city folks rarely physically move out of their living situation. These are the folks using the healthcare system more often than those taking care of themselves because they have much to live for.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/04/18 12:15 PM.

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Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294207
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In addition I feel it is constitutionally sound for the individual states to set up programs such as health care but it from my understanding it would be a illegal overreach if the feds did it.

Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6294214
08/04/18 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: Mike in A-town
I would add that Japanese culture plays a great amount into any success they have with their system.

There are always exceptions. But as a rule, personal accountability is a big deal amongst the Japanese people.

Cultural norms can't be excluded as a variable.

Mike


This is undoubtedly true, this is also why I said I would prefer a single payer system ran by the individual states as we have different politics etc throughout the country and keeping things "closer to home" would help alleviate tension and allow alterations within each system that better suited the populace.


Japanese children tend to be grounded in reality from an early age...

https://youtu.be/hL5mKE4e4uU

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294271
08/04/18 02:30 PM
08/04/18 02:30 PM
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As long as doctors medical equipment manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies can be sued the costs of medical treatment will remain high, doesn't make any difference who pays.
I guess generally the insurance companies write the court mandated check, then they pass that cost and the legal and admin cost associated with it down to the insured provider who in turn adds on an admin cost and splits it up among the the patients.
Upfront cost bidding and publicly posted rates would possible only if indemnity waivers were included and insurance payment excluded.
The mere fact that insurance companies never pay the billed amount causes the providers to double or quadruple the amount billed so that after the insurance cuts the bill in half the provider still gets paid something.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6294379
08/04/18 06:04 PM
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Rejecting socialism in not anti social.


Retired financial analyst
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295632
08/06/18 10:58 AM
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How many of you anti-socialist sentenced your children to a free government operated (communism) school?


Who is John Galt?
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295680
08/06/18 12:19 PM
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There are no anti socialists, just some government dependents don't realize they are dependent. Almost any one that posts here is taking advantage of some socialist government subsidized electricity and the food you ate very likely was transported over socialist government provided roads. If you are attacked or your house burgled most of you will immediately call the socialist police to rescue you.

Two kinds of people in the world, anarchists and socialists. Since you guys ain't in jail for blowing stuff up it must be that we are all socialists on this forum. Just maybe in varying degrees.
When you sold you goods, you took payment in socialist money, eh? Not even real socialist money but fiat socialist money.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295703
08/06/18 12:40 PM
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Problem is the modern socialist utopias are massively debt ridden,which leads to insane economic policies to keep their ships from sinking.


Who is John Galt?
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295737
08/06/18 01:10 PM
08/06/18 01:10 PM
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Sure, I get that and all debt funded economic policies are insane. Time for the anarchists to rise?

Trouble with this country may be we haven't had any wars that we were invested in emotionally since 1865. We have become a complacent nation go along and get along?

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6295884
08/06/18 04:41 PM
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Clearly, the framers of the Constitution were not anarchist. They wrote a document that gave the government limited powers.


Who is John Galt?
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