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Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293513
08/03/18 02:07 PM
08/03/18 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,851
perry co.Pa
wetdog Offline
trapper
wetdog  Offline
trapper

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,851
perry co.Pa
Do the math on free health care for all.
They say 30 trillion over 10 years
360 million people in the us
The math says 8200$ for everyone to get free health care a year
Now take out the kids who are not old enough to work,disabled people,and career bums(protester's)
Now the working class will have to pay appoxamitly
30,000$ each to provide health care for all
And that's just the health care for a year
Add in free schools
No thanks I will pay my bill you pay yours

Last edited by wetdog; 08/03/18 02:13 PM. Reason: Old eyes
Re: Socialism [Re: Kart29] #6293514
08/03/18 02:10 PM
08/03/18 02:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: Kart29
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


The way you phrase it "denying health care to poor single mothers..." makes it sound like somebody desires to prevent somebody else from getting healthcare. It makes it sound like the people in authority have a free will choice to decide who gets health care and who doesn't. I disagree with the very foundational concept that it is within the power of government or society to determine to whom they will grant health care services and to whom they will not. That's just starting off from a wrong foundation - which is where most of our society typically is.

"Ugly truth, freedom rings". Nobody deserves health care. If I or anyone else wants healthcare we should be free to go buy it at our own expense. We should not expect anyone else to buy it for us.

I will guarantee you that part of the reason we have so many single-parent families and children born outside of marriage is because our society has ameliorated most of the negative consequences of making babies outside of marriage. If it weren't for welfare programs, women would be much more reluctant to have babies without a committed husband. And maybe boys would grow start growing up to be real men if they weren't getting all the milk for free.

I'm very much in favor of charity and taking care of the widows, orphans, and other needy. But handling this through the force of government is morally wrong. It's just flat WRONG. There's nothing honorable about it any way. When we as a society do things that are WRONG, there are negative consequences.


I agree with pretty much all of what you said, I dont even want women to vote because I feel they tend to favor the collective over individual rights, or they favor the collective "humans" over their country people. However I also do not feel that it is right if your kid falls off his bike and breaks his leg and he has a simple surgery and a night in the hospital that it should warrant a bill that is the equivalent the average price of a house that takes most people 30 years to pay for. I do not want to see people forced into being corporate wage slaves just to afford health insurance for their family, we need to get medical prices under control and the only way I can see that happening is with single payer.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293516
08/03/18 02:12 PM
08/03/18 02:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
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MN
My phrasing of "Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution." was meant to be read exactly as it was written, it is not a realistic option because of the feelings of the voting populace, it was not meant to convey my personal feelings on the subject.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293529
08/03/18 02:38 PM
08/03/18 02:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,751
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,751
Central, SD
You would be shocked the amount of aid one family can consume in their lifetime it is in the millions for some and in the end they still have nothing and is just passing on the lifestyle to many of their children to continue the tradition.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Law Dog] #6293533
08/03/18 02:45 PM
08/03/18 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: Law Dog
You would be shocked the amount of aid one family can consume in their lifetime it is in the millions for some and in the end they still have nothing and is just passing on the lifestyle to many of their children to continue the tradition.


The last couple years of his life my step brother used millions of dollars of public assistance, mainly rehab/halfway house type programs which are incredibly expensive. In the end he died as you would expect a addict to. It is unfortunate we cannot put our loser drunks/addicts on the "America boat" like Europe used to. As harsh as it is part of my would be fine with the Filipino method of just shooting drug dealers.

Re: Socialism [Re: wetdog] #6293574
08/03/18 03:40 PM
08/03/18 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: wetdog
Do the math on free health care for all.
They say 30 trillion over 10 years
360 million people in the us
The math says 8200$ for everyone to get free health care a year
Now take out the kids who are not old enough to work,disabled people,and career bums(protester's)
Now the working class will have to pay appoxamitly
30,000$ each to provide health care for all
And that's just the health care for a year
Add in free schools
No thanks I will pay my bill you pay yours


In countries with similar levels of care the cost are around $4,000 per year. That is my problem, we need cost to get under control because right now it is obscene, I would gladly trade state sponsored indoctrination errr "education" for state sponsored health care if that was a option.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293577
08/03/18 03:43 PM
08/03/18 03:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,124
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,124
McGrath, AK
Why would you think state sponsored health care would turn out any better than state sponsored education ?


Mean As Nails
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293578
08/03/18 03:46 PM
08/03/18 03:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,751
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,751
Central, SD
In some cases the guy buying a new boat or gun won't go in for a check up because it cost so much! LOL


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293596
08/03/18 04:28 PM
08/03/18 04:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


Bring back the draft. Medical professionals that become government property will treat those without insurance. They would not treat those who have insurance through their employers or those that can afford insurance themselves.

Those without insurance would be subject to extreme getting to get on military bases for treatment but a small price to pay for free healthcare.


-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: white17] #6293599
08/03/18 04:32 PM
08/03/18 04:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: white17
Why would you think state sponsored health care would turn out any better than state sponsored education ?

Because of potential indoctrination the state should never be allowed to control mandatory education, in addition not everyone has children that will use the education system, a man who chooses to not have kids should not be taxed to pay for the education of a man who sired 12 kids. Education is also not something that is needed at a moments notice, you will not die if you do not sign on the dotted line because you need education, you have time to evaluate your options and make choices accordingly and within your budget. With advances in technology it is very possibly to gain a education from home using the internet, those who value education could still gain a quality education even if they were low income simply by going to class online.

Everyone uses health care and due to the nature of needing to immediately address a injury you do not have time to evaluate your choices, you may not even be conscious, this allows a very predatory pricing model to be exploited by predatory corporate interest which help to drive prices towards unaffordability.

Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293600
08/03/18 04:35 PM
08/03/18 04:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
trapper
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
I am all ears if you have solutions to fixing health care provided they are realistic. Denying health care to poor single mothers who cannot pay is not a realistic solution.


Bring back the draft. Medical professionals that become government property will treat those without insurance. They would not treat those who have insurance through their employers or those that can afford insurance themselves.

Those without insurance would be subject to extreme getting to get on military bases for treatment but a small price to pay for free healthcare.


Yikes.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293602
08/03/18 04:40 PM
08/03/18 04:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
You will get better care than price controlling when the quality medical professionals lockout government care.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 04:41 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293606
08/03/18 04:51 PM
08/03/18 04:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
You will get better care than price controlling when the quality medical professionals lockout government care.


Have medical professionals been able to successfully lockout government anywhere single payer has been instituted? Medical professionals and their pay is not the driving force behind medical cost, it is administration and corporate interest that are the driving forces of cost.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293653
08/03/18 05:57 PM
08/03/18 05:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
You don't think the best doctors are only going to service those that can pay?

Or

Are you talking about the government mandating that they service everyone and take whatever the government is paying?


-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293654
08/03/18 06:00 PM
08/03/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
My father-in-law is the mechanic the mechanics take their cars to. He works on cars based on who can pay. Turns away folks all the time. Does the government need to jump in that and make him work on everybody's car regardless if they can afford it or not?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 06:00 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293658
08/03/18 06:09 PM
08/03/18 06:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
trapper
Marty  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Saying that someone should die because they are financially challenged is a touchy topic.


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293661
08/03/18 06:13 PM
08/03/18 06:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 06:15 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Socialism [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6293676
08/03/18 06:33 PM
08/03/18 06:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,524
MN
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.


You are the only one talking about forcing people to labor against their will. If a doctor does not want to work under a single payer system he does not have to, he can quit and we will replace him with another doctor. If we run low on doctors who do not want to work I am sure we can find some from overseas who would gladly gain residence and work as doctors in the U.S.

Re: Socialism [Re: AntiGov] #6293678
08/03/18 06:39 PM
08/03/18 06:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
trapper
Marty  Offline
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Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Seems to me that the whole health care system here is in need of overhaul. I do not know enough about what would work best but I can see how what we have is working.

Seems like there is lots of abuse by bottom feeders and not enough help for honest, hard workers.


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: Socialism [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6293683
08/03/18 06:45 PM
08/03/18 06:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted By: Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted By: HobbieTrapper
Nobody saying that. I'm talking about people being ok with the government forcing someone to use their talent.

Which would be fine if they were the property of the government, not in the public sector.


You are the only one talking about forcing people to labor against their will. If a doctor does not want to work under a single payer system he does not have to, he can quit and we will replace him with another doctor. If we run low on doctors who do not want to work I am sure we can find some from overseas who would gladly gain residence and work as doctors in the U.S.


So you can't be a doctor in a single payer system and work for a private individual?

What is your trade?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 08/03/18 06:45 PM.

-Goofy-
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