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need cheap black powder? #6294389
08/04/18 07:21 PM
08/04/18 07:21 PM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline OP
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6294954
08/05/18 12:52 PM
08/05/18 12:52 PM
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Posts: 4,976
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DaveP Online content
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What's the difference between this " lift " BP vs say 2F?

Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6294991
08/05/18 02:04 PM
08/05/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,780
St. Cloud, MN
trapperkeck Offline
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2F powder has coarser granules of powder vs 3F. Both are black powder. 3F is commonly used in pistols because it burns faster than 2F. 3F is also used to prime the flash pan on flintlock muzzleloaders. Black powder characteristics are much less stable than the black powder substitutes. In other words, it is much more likely to go off when a spark is applied. It is also much dirtier to shoot, but performs much better in traditional muzzleloaders because it is less affected by temperature variations, etc, IMO. There is also 4F black powder that is very fine and used, strictly, for priming on flintlocks.

Last edited by trapperkeck; 08/05/18 02:07 PM.

"The voice of reason!"
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295006
08/05/18 02:30 PM
08/05/18 02:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,429
Georgia
warrior Offline
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It's been awhile since I fooled with black but I seem to recall 2F was used in cannons or other large bore applications. The fineness of the powder was used to roughly control the "burn rate".


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Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295015
08/05/18 02:46 PM
08/05/18 02:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132
SWMo.
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tjm Offline
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Lift powder and flash powder are pyrotechnics, to lift the shell and to burst the shell. kinda, I'm not a pyro.
The FA designation vs FG is if memory serves unglazed powder = FA & glazed gun powder = FG; the 2 or 3 or 4 is the size particles that passed through a certain size screen.
In general 2FG is for rifles over .45 cal and 3FG is for small bore rifles and pistols 4 FG is for primer in flint lock shooting.
The 2FA lift powder listed in the red gum kit doesn't readily translate to shooting use for me, although there are many that know and understand it better than I.

Last edited by tjm; 08/05/18 02:58 PM.
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295039
08/05/18 03:09 PM
08/05/18 03:09 PM
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St. Louis Co, Mo
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BigBob Offline
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Link wont' work.


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Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: BigBob] #6295129
08/05/18 05:17 PM
08/05/18 05:17 PM
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SWMo.
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tjm Offline
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Originally Posted By: BigBob
Link wont' work.
works for me, but go to skylighter.com and under "kits" drop down select "black powder"

Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295137
08/05/18 05:29 PM
08/05/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,382
Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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I am not sure about this kits details

FA and FG

FG is measured in Fg , FFg , FFFg, FFFFg when measuring it passes one screen but stops on the smaller meaning you get a very consistent size grannual

FA as I understand it is measured with different screens and includes what passes so you have a much wider range of grannaul size including a lot of fines.

I started asking some what similat questions about black powder a few years ago that some of you may have, here you can see the education on it I got. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208326-Ffg-fffg-ffffg-vs-ffa-fffa-ffffa

if your wondering what I ended up doing , bulk 25 pound bag of Shutzen 3fg at 12 dollars a pound this spring the current price. at the time I had asked these questions I had just bought up enough of the old elephant old stock to get by for a while back when I was asking questions about this and I collected up enough powder canisters to house all the new powder for the bulk 25 pound purchase.

we go through about 5-6 pounds a year with the 4-H and some running a training clinic so it will last a few years

if you have a few friends buying 25 pounds at a time is the most cost effective way , but it comes in a cotton sack in a plastic bag.

most of our target work is 30 gr loads and some up to 60 gr for targets out around 100 yards. so it comes to between 5 and 10 cents a load for powder , patches are running about 1.5 cents and I cast the round balls from lead we got donated form a local excavator who removed some lead water pipe a few years back.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295162
08/05/18 06:11 PM
08/05/18 06:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132
SWMo.
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tjm Offline
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GREENCOUNTYPETE , I had seen that thread and hoped you'd chime in, so you never tried the 5FA in place of 2FG? (actually the screens match for 3FG, I think)

My other reading indicates that the sporting powder (FG) is wet, corned, screened and tumbled (an Army paper said graphite added in tumbling) whereas the blasting powder is just ball milled. Chemically the same but one more refined.
I found a chart showing amounts of 2FG to use in mortars in place of the FA as lifting powder but never found the corresponding chart of FA to compare with.

What I gather is the FG is more uniform in size and also burns slower for a given size because of the granule shape. One source said the FG is more powerful than the FA, but gave no info on how that was determined. Either packs tighter or because of burn rate difference? both?
Because the different granule size and shape gives different weights per volume and substitution would require careful weighing, imo.

Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295174
08/05/18 06:24 PM
08/05/18 06:24 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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TJM , he didn't have any 5FA at that time.

I also came to the conclusion that if I bought the FG the the 4-H manual specifies as the correct powder for Muzzle loading arms there could be no complaint. but if I experimented with 5FA which is not listed in the manual as correct then I was taking on undue liability. since 80% of the powder is used for 4-H I just stayed with FG running mostly 3FG as it burns better for light target loads.\

it just didn't pay price wise for me to experiment with FA powders.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295181
08/05/18 06:31 PM
08/05/18 06:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,780
St. Cloud, MN
trapperkeck Offline
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At this point, DaveP is thinking..... WTH? LOL


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Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295221
08/05/18 07:23 PM
08/05/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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From what I have researched BP isn't terribly complicated to make oneself. But a few minor details separate the best from mediocre and poor performers...

The wood used to produce the charcoal... Alder Buckthorn is supposedly the wood that Swiss brand powder uses to make their charcoal

Amount of time the ingredients are milled in the ball mill... The finer the ingredients are, the better the performance of the powder.

I've given serious consideration to trying to make a batch of my own powder... The ball mill, sifting screens, sulphur and saltpeter are all commercially available...

The alder for the charcoal is the problem. It isn't native to the U.S. but it is here. Just not in my area of the country... But it is considered an invasive species in Minnesota.

Anybody up there got it on their property? Lol

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295224
08/05/18 07:25 PM
08/05/18 07:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
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I thought willow made good bp charcoal?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295229
08/05/18 07:30 PM
08/05/18 07:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Originally Posted By: danny clifton
I thought willow made good bp charcoal?


Pretty sure willow and paulownia make good charcoal, but alder buckthorn is the Rolls-Royce I guess.

Plenty of willow around. I might try it just for a starter batch.

Danny do you want any if I manage to make it work? Lol

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295235
08/05/18 07:43 PM
08/05/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
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I think its illegal to mail. might drive down with a couple guns to help test it though


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: trapperkeck] #6295239
08/05/18 07:49 PM
08/05/18 07:49 PM
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DaveP Online content
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Originally Posted By: trapperkeck
At this point, DaveP is thinking..... WTH? LOL


No, I was thinking, folks are typing but most are not addressing my question.

I KNOW about the differnt granulations, I have been shooting BP rifles, pistols, and cannons for 35 years.

Was wondering how this compared to 2F. Doubt it would be consistent enough for my needs.

Still shooting Goex and not likly to run out.
Just curious.

Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295240
08/05/18 07:49 PM
08/05/18 07:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Pretty sure FedEx will ship it, but the Hazmat fee would probably pay for the gas to deliver it oneself.

And I know for sure that I can't sell it to anyone... So we would just have to burn it up with an afternoon of shooting. Lol

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295248
08/05/18 08:05 PM
08/05/18 08:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
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Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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Detailed instructions on making your own BP http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

yes fed ex will ship and if you buy 25 pounds it only adds a touch over 3 dollars to a pound if you order in 25 pound lots.

Dave , the difference between lift BP called FA black powder is how the grains are screened and that it is not glazed , so less even grains with mixed fines and not glazed they both go boom but you have greater consistency with FG but on a fire work it just doesn't need to be as precise as in a rifle you can figure out where your lot shoots then the next lot may shoot different.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295257
08/05/18 08:18 PM
08/05/18 08:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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When I was working in Illinois I was coming home one weekend and made a detour and stopped at Graf's in Mexico, MO.

I bought several pounds of powder, including a pound of their house brand powder in 3f... I'm pretty sure it's made by Wano with a Graf's label on it. It was only $15 or so a pound.

I haven't opened it yet because I'm still chipping away at a can of Goex.

Anybody tried it? If so, did you like the performance for the price?

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: need cheap black powder? [Re: danny clifton] #6295267
08/05/18 08:40 PM
08/05/18 08:40 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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Wano is made by Schuetzen which is good stuff

if it is in a plastic bottle it is most likely Wano/Schuetzen


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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