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#6324956 - 09/14/18 11:17 AM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
jwood Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 277
Loc: Northern Maine
Numerous instances of radio tagged Martin being killed by Fisher
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#6324961 - 09/14/18 11:22 AM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
jwood Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 277
Loc: Northern Maine
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#6324974 - 09/14/18 11:48 AM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
bctomcat Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: 100 Mile House, BC Can
"jwood": I'm pretty dense so possibly you can show, or explain, where in your last two post where it explains how they know radio collared marten were kill by fisher and not just scavenged after the marten just died for some other reason. Evidence of a fisher eating marten does not necessarily prove it killed the marten.
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#6324985 - 09/14/18 12:01 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Clark Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 1323
Loc: Duluth, MN
Originally Posted By: ebsurveyor
Maine "collared" some lynx ten years or so ago. A high percentage of them were killed by fisher.


We are going to need a reference on that.

I think I recall an instance of a radio-collared lynx being killed by a fisher in MN but the circumstances were unusual and it was one out of ~40 cats collared.

Clark
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#6324987 - 09/14/18 12:02 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Dirt Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/01/10
Posts: 3730
Loc: Armpit, ak
" Predation. Direct predation, through either a competitory or predatory mechanism, is the
major cause of mortality of martens in Wisconsin. McCann et al. (2010) reported predationrelated
mortalities for 9 of 12 (75%) verified mortalities in the Chequamegon MPA. For these
mortalities, four (25%) were killed by raptors, four (25%) by fishers, one (8%) by an unknown
mammal, one (8%) by incidental trapping, and two (16%) by unknown causes. "

I found one study. Most seem to classify predation mortality as Avian or Mammalian. Probably hard to get to a dead marten fast enough to figure out conclusively how it got killed.
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#6325007 - 09/14/18 12:59 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 16829
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
I have no doubt fisher can kill marten.But due to the fact that there are places where both live together in good numbers,i don't believe fishers go out of their way to hunt and kill marten.
Now since there are places where marten and fisher do not co exist well,I believe it is a matter of habitat and the fact fisher outcompete marten for food,when the habitat is optimal for fisher,and sub optimal for marten.
Back before the 1940's there were very few marten here in the Kap,Hearst,Cochrane district.It was strictly Fisher.Today it is the opposite. (huge fires swept the North between 1910 and 1916)
There are few to no marten in eastern Ontario due to poor habitat but the Fisher population there is exploding with the changing habitat there.(old abandoned farm country reclaimed by nature).

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#6325044 - 09/14/18 02:17 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
jwood Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 277
Loc: Northern Maine
I probably didn't explain the whole 'fisher eating marten' thing as well as I meant to earlier. There's a concept in ecology known as 'intraguild predation', where one species kills another, less dominant species that competes for a similar food source. Here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intraguild_predation
In this case, fisher are probably killing marten where they represent competition for food.

I would say that if a study shows as many marten are killed by fisher as are killed by raptors, then fisher represent an important element controlling the distribution of marten populations on a landscape.

Lots of other studies out there, but I have way too much work to do outside right now smile
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#6325110 - 09/14/18 04:16 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: Clark]
ebsurveyor Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: sometimes PA sometimes ME
Originally Posted By: Clark
Originally Posted By: ebsurveyor
Maine "collared" some lynx ten years or so ago. A high percentage of them were killed by fisher.


We are going to need a reference on that.

I think I recall an instance of a radio-collared lynx being killed by a fisher in MN but the circumstances were unusual and it was one out of ~40 cats collared.

Clark


Some people don't know what they don't know.

The geographic range of Canada lynx (Lynx canadensis) extends south from Canada into the United States where they are federally protected as a threatened species. Although inadequate protection of habitat on federal lands was the primary reason for listing, the status of lynx in the lower 48 states is not well understood. Thus, we initiated a telemetry study to assess the status of a lynx population in northern Maine, USA. In this manuscript, we present findings on a source of mortality not previously documented. Between 1999 and 2011, we captured 187 lynx, equipped 85 with radio&#8208;collars, and investigated mortalities when they occurred. Predation was the leading source of mortality and accounted for &#8805;18 of 65 mortalities, 14 of which were attributed to fishers (Martes pennanti). Although fisher predation did not appear to restrict population growth during this study, we recommend that lynx and fishers be monitored where the species coexist to better inform management decisions. © 2018 The Wildlife Society.

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#6325122 - 09/14/18 04:27 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 16829
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
Must have been kittens.

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#6325128 - 09/14/18 04:34 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: joepennanti]
cyaukeyy Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 44
Loc: pa
Originally Posted By: joepennanti
cyaukeyy you caught a marten in PA?


No for PA. In Maine

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#6325195 - 09/14/18 06:31 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
bctomcat Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 1025
Loc: 100 Mile House, BC Can
I agree with "Boco" and am very skeptical that even a large fisher would tackle an adult lynx.
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#6325213 - 09/14/18 06:55 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: bctomcat]
proratman Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 1350
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bctomcat
I agree with "Boco" and am very skeptical that even a large fisher would tackle an adult lynx.

To what advantage would it be to Fish & Wildlife to fabricate a story of lynx mortality as a result of a fisher attack?

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#6325215 - 09/14/18 06:58 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
alaska viking Offline
"Made it two years not being censored"

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 3952
Loc: juneau, alaska
I agree with boco, too. Just doesn't stand up to common sense.


Edited by alaska viking (09/14/18 06:59 PM)
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#6325217 - 09/14/18 07:00 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 16829
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
A big lynx would shred a fisher.A kitten on the other hand would be easy pickins for a fisher.Lynx meat is the next best bait in the bush after beaver.Everything likes it including other lynx.I doubt the bio's were fabricating anything,likely they got mixed up between scavenging and actual predating,like was pointed out earlier in this thread.There is not many animal that could kill a full grown lynx.Wolf,if they could catch one and maybe wolverine.The biggest killer of lynx in the bush is starvation after the rabbit population crashes.


Edited by Boco (09/14/18 07:07 PM)

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#6325242 - 09/14/18 07:46 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: Boco]
ebsurveyor Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: sometimes PA sometimes ME
Originally Posted By: Boco
A big lynx would shred a fisher.A kitten on the other hand would be easy pickins for a fisher.Lynx meat is the next best bait in the bush after beaver.Everything likes it including other lynx.I doubt the bio's were fabricating anything,likely they got mixed up between scavenging and actual predating,like was pointed out earlier in this thread.There is not many animal that could kill a full grown lynx.Wolf,if they could catch one and maybe wolverine.The biggest killer of lynx in the bush is starvation after the rabbit population crashes.


How big are you lynx? Ours seem to peak out at about 30 pounds. How mean are your lynx? A friend released one from a coyote trap by just reaching in with two hands and compressing the trap springs. I would never mess with a 15 pounds fisher but lynx are pu**y cats.



Why don't you Canadians keep your Canadian Lynx in Canada? If they come over here our fisher might eat them.


Edited by ebsurveyor (09/14/18 07:47 PM)

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#6325250 - 09/14/18 07:57 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
jwood Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 277
Loc: Northern Maine
Here's text from the study. (Link here: https://www.maine.gov/ifw/docs/species_p...02012_Final.pdf )

In Maine, 14 of 18 lynx that died from predation were killed by fisher (Martes
pennanti) based on presence and location of pre-mortem puncture wounds found during
necropsy and observations of fisher tracks, scat, caching behavior at the kill site. We
weren’t able to identify the predator for the other 4 predation losses, but we suspect one
may have been killed by a coyote. We also suspect 9 other lynx were killed by fisher
based on observations of fisher tracks and/or scat, caching behavior, and/or obvious kill
site when we investigated the mortality, but were unable to confirm premortem puncture
wounds because the carcass had been partially or completely consumed


I can ask Scott more about it next time I see him, but I believe they were pretty thorough in their work.

Not sure why we're arguing about it, though, or about the idea of fisher killing marten. The point is that it happens here, and higher fisher abundances can make things different on our traplines.

It will be interesting to see how things play out this season. Last year a trapper and his partner had to stop short of filling marten tags because they limited out on fisher - 38 marten and 20 fisher. I don't know anyone this far north who's ever come close to that ratio before.
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#6325311 - 09/14/18 09:03 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 16829
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
A friend of mine near Minden has a 40 fisher and 40 marten quota on the same line,not far from Algonquin park.
Another trapper I know was the largest fisher producer in Ontario for several years taking more than 90 each year,not far from Ottawa.No Marten there at all.Where I trap in the north the usual ratio of fisher to marten is about 30 marten for each fisher from my records over the past 30 years or so.
I have seen one trapper and one conservation officer in bad shape after releasing lynx.No wounds but their outer clothes were shredded.
25 pounds would be an average weight lynx but some big toms are heavier than that.
I have dispatched the odd incidental fisher in lynx snares-no different than dispatching a fox.Lynx on the other hand are a whole different ballgame.Catch pole or snare on a pole is the way to go.They will swat you with the two front mitts and if they hook you they will follow up ripping with their back legs,not to mention the sabrelike teeth.I never seen so many feathers flying as when that lynx hooked the down filled overcoat and shredded it with his back feet,lol.


Edited by Boco (09/14/18 09:15 PM)

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#6325374 - 09/14/18 10:28 PM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
cohunt Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1559
Loc: revillo, sd
An observation that I made in Northern Wisconsin that is a bit off the topic of this thread but I have not reported it previously and it is worth recording. I was disposing of large numbers of skinned carcasses on a farm that abutted the Chequamegon National Forest. The tract could be accessed with a pickup until the snow got too deep. I had been dropping loads of carcasses for several weeks into a tongue of grassland that extended a hundred yards or so into a stand of tall red pine. The day of record as I entered the tongue, I saw a dead fisher on the ground. I got out and the story was clearly marked in about two inches of fresh snow. The large male fisher had been on the carcasses when two coyotes approached from the side and cut him off from the pines from which he had made his approach to the carcass pile. The fisher ran about 60 yards out my road before the coyotes caught and killed him. They did not tear up or eat his body. The sign was totally clear so no guesswork was required to determine what had happened.

In numerous other observations in the same general area, I saw where fisher had killed and partially eaten trapped racoon and actually witnessed a fisher kill a striped skunk incidentally taken in a coyote trap.


Edited by cohunt (09/14/18 10:40 PM)

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#6325438 - 09/15/18 06:04 AM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Hutchy Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 5297
Loc: On Georgian Bay, Ontario Canad...
I grabbbed a fisher and untangled it from a snare for release last winter. It didn't do much, tried to bite and scratch me a bit, but settled down. Just ran away after. I'd rather handle a fisher than a lynx thanks.
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#6325441 - 09/15/18 06:09 AM Re: Fisher v Marten [Re: ebsurveyor]
Hutchy Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 5297
Loc: On Georgian Bay, Ontario Canad...
Anything can happen. Opportunity is the biggest factor. Hence the coys killing a fisher. Had coys chew up a fisher two years ago. All punched full of holes, but not eater at all. Jerks.

I find that study hard to believe. With such a number of lynx being killed, it would appear that that would represent something fisher in general actively hunt. Animals survive by not taking risks. Easy meals are key. The claws and fangs of a predator that far outweighs a fisher would be too much risk. Stranger things have happened, but at those numbers?
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