Could someone post the link to the grab and die stick thread or any threads that pertain to the subject? Much appreciated!

http://sniperstrappingplace.com/tmansearchresult1.php?q=grab%20and%20die

use this search engine. I typed in the "grab and die" and this is what came up. Copy and paste this link into your searchbar. Below is the link to the homepage. bookmark this it is awesome.

http://sniperstrappingplace.com/tmansearch.php

I think that, like most of the best threads on this forum got "pruned". Apparently the pruning was done by dates with no regard to content. Anyhow the search says not here no more.

A more recent thread on bait for grab and pulls: https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6129970/Favorite_Bait_or_Lure_for_Grub

You could search the 'net for APHIS or Wildlife Services/USDA papers/research on use/baits for M44 cyanide guns/coyote getters, that's the definition of grab and die.

Go to chat-lures, what where and when

Wayne you had an excellent bait stick making pictorial instruction 2-3 years ago. I thought it was in the archived "Fall Coyotes" thread but now I can't find it.

"Fall Coyotes" isn't archived, it's like 3500 pages of chitchat in the chat forum, and growing. Some good information in both those threads but if you can sort it out of the other stuff, it's because you already know it.

Berlap 1 inch wide 7 long. Hot glue to dowl pin 1/2x6

Nice Mr. Wayne. Looks like a half inch willow will work as well.

What will work other than burlap? I don't recall seeing any recently.

I make mine from 3/8x8" dowel by hot gluing a twist of sheep wool to it. The lanolin odor is an added attractor, plus I haven't evicted the mice that occasionally bed in it.Got a big garbage bag of it from friend Sammy Petty several years ago. It don't take a lot of wool to do 80 or 100. I don't dig many holes, just use grub stakes and also plug some gray plastic conduit with wool leaving a tail hanging out, a slight mod to Mr. Zagger' excellent idea. If you're not in sheep country, some supply dealers sell small bags of it. Good stuff to use, even in a hole in the ground.

Felt from craft stores. Many fabric stores sell burlap. Wally world sells both.

Lots of farm supply places have empty burlap bags. I always keep some because I use burlap in the fur shed. One bag would make a lot of bite sticks.

Try the grey carpet with no backing they sell in Lowes and Home Depot. Thicker than felt or burlap and soaks up lure/bait. One bundle would last 3 life times and its about $12.

Vet wrap works also.

Check with concrete finishers for burlap scraps. I buy it for work to roll out and water cure concrete and always have scrap around that I’m throwing in a dumpster.

Oak roots Las from scrub oak. Wally world burlap stinks to me. Wool is good felt is good.

I make a bunch of grab stick. Run a 5/8 dowel rod about 9 in. long take 2 in. of vet wrap wrap it about 1/2 from the top with a small wade of wool. One wrap of the vet wrap then slide a catsorating band up on it from the bottom to hold it on.
I like the 5/8 dowel because my driver can make a pilot hole in frozen ground and a 1/2 will snap off if hit wrong. I more successes with them over bones any day!!!


Keg Creek

I use schedule 40 1" pipe and wood, wrapped with felt from Wally's cut in strips, hot glued. The felt comes in different colors for contrast too..

Vet wrap is best (for ease) in my opinion. Mole skin could work. Burlap works well.

I have piles of this stuff laying around and never thought of using it. But I also have lots of burlap, from being in sheep country. Will have to look at the differences, unless you alrighty have, usmc47

What's the best set up for the grab and die sets? Would love to see a set using this method.

Flat sets with bait sticks as the attractors. Wayne Derrick (Wayne52) suggests using 2 sticks per set with gland lure on one stick and something else on the other. Urine at base of stick is an option.

Anyone ever notice a difference in wrap color? My wife has a bunch of felt she uses in her classroom for crafts for the kids. Dumb question but would there be any known difference between light tan, grey, and black other than it standing out against its background?

Also, what would be the ideal finished diameter at the wrapped end?

Asking because I know there was a lot of studies on the getters and m44 but that info is hard to find

If I remember correctly black color had a higher percentage of visits verses white in studies for coyote. You could try some with both colors and see what works best for you.

For M-44's they usually cut a 6" long piece of burlap 1 1/4" wide and wrap it around the head. So if you use a 3/8" dowel about 6"-7" long and wrap a 6"-7" piece of felt around the top of dowel you should have the ideal finished diameter.

Thanks

What happened to the orginal post?

Ttt

There's something about the texture of felt that makes them bite it better than vet wrap or burlap. I've experimented with different colors a lot. White seems to make them more cautious. Black not so much. Blending colors seem to be better for this technique. Bed the trap by a clump of grass and pound the G&D in the clump. Smear a dime size dab of food/curiosity lure on it and walk away. G&Ds have almost replaced dirt holes for me anyway.... Then there's the Nolen bone but that's not for me to share.

Two years ago, armed with 4 darn good trail camera in video mode, I decided to study the use of gland lures. I wanted to know which worked and which didn't and most importantly to me, was foot placement in relation to where and how the lure was placed. Well last year I turned my focus onto the use of grubstake lures/baits for the same reasons as my studies of gland lures.

Last year I tested 14 lures/baits most of them were advertised as "grab & pull or M-44" lures/baits. In fact, one manufacturer told me not to use his 2 lures/baits below ground, that they were specifically designed for above ground use. I found this interesting because I watched the original manufacturer use them below ground in his dvd! Of the 14, 4 did not work at all or very sporadicly with little enthusiasm from the coyotes. BTW, those 4 lures/baits were tested in below ground tests previously and were considered worthless in that application as well but I thought maybe they lacked "lift" when below ground level but not so, they are just plain worthless.

The ones that worked were pulled and taken but in ever instance the grubstakes were urinated on before being removed and none were chewed while under the cameras. When the coyotes urinated on the grubstake they always straddled it. EVERY coyote that showed interest in the scent would make their initial stop 9" back from the grubstake exactly downwind and did not circle. Another thing I learned was that I could verify much of Major Boddicker's M-44 book though I never used any of the scents he listed. As it's said that snow doesn't lie and tells all, well videos don't lie either but both allow a degree interpretation by the observer.

I tried 1 of my top 2 performing paste baits that I've used for years in my Disco dirt-holes and walk-thru sets and the coyotes went crazy over it with almost frantic and sustained rolling and scratching/digging but NEVER pulled the grubstakes!

I need to do another round of testing this coming year because I'm not satisfied or comfortable with what I saw during testing that would make me want switch from a below ground to an above ground application with my weather conditions.

trappergbus ... I am curious now, as to what exactly the "Nolen Bone" is all about??? Please, do share.

You're correct Seldom. I've used a lot of grab and pull baits in the same fashion as Boddicker. Many of them don't get a pull response like they claim. I came up with my own pull bait and have had very good results in my area.

This might surprise some but O'G's powder river actually works well for a pull bait consistently year after year in my area. But the first visit they may just roll or urinate on it. Then the second time around they will pull. Sometimes on the initial visit they will pull.

I believe he's shared publicly before. He runs a earth anchor through a bone and anchors it to the ground leaving a little slack so the bone can be tugged on but not be taken away. Puts lure or bait on bone and it becomes a toy factor for the critter to try and take away. Gets caught with all the foot movement of the animal tugging.

Spot on Silky, with the anchored bone , they try and take it and when it won't come they get a bit frustrated. Seldoms correct, there's not many lures that work well on G&Ds but when ya find one that does it's gold. I get my best response with G&Ds without urine or gland. Keg Creek makes a couple and John Graham makes a couple also. I make some that works well also but its not for sale. I urge you all to experiment with texture, diameter and color. It makes a big difference!
With the right trap placement ya get the pee dogs and the takers. Whenever I set up a location I'll back up G&Ds with a scent post to give them something to pee on.

A lot of theories about how a caught coyote worked the set. But since a catch circle tells no tales all are just theories. Testing will help one learn who knows of what they speak of.

Interesting stuff here, but I'm curious. Those who are testing reactions to such subtle differences as texture or color of the fabric used, or a wide variety of baits or lures, how many individual visits are you drawing conclusions from? Is it 3 out of 4 prefered this over that? or 9 of 10? or 89 of 100? Just curious about the scale of some of these test results.

For the last 3 seasons 50 percent of my fox and coyotes have been taken on G&Ds. close to 200 coyotes and 100 red fox. They walk right past dirt holes, direct line approach. Only one way to find out Walleye101.. Super efficient and deadly

I don’t use numbers of coyote visits, how many coyotes are seen in each 10-12 night test setting is however many there was. The 10-12 nights is just my trapping pattern so I use it with testing as well.

I expect every coyote to be strongly attracted to whatever scent I’m testing the first time they encounter it but very, very few lures and baits have that ability/attractiveness to accomplish that! I have through observation found that there is no such thing as a 3 of 4 or 9 out of 10 thing, some will & some won’t, etc., Their reactions are pretty much consistent in regards to whether something is attractive or not and to what degree. Wouldn’t that be an interesting thing if a lure manufacturer told us that his lure was good for catching 3 out of 4 coyote? LOL

My expectations testing are the same as when I’m trapping, I expect every single coyote that encounters my set and scents be strongly attracted enough that it has to get at the scent and be caught. When a coyote is traveling past your test or set with it's head up and doing the 3.4mph coyote trot that they are noted for, I want the scent I'm using attractive enough to stop that coyote even if it was already 20' past my set. Not only stop the coyote but change it's mindset, turn it around and have it come back to my test or set and work the devil out of the test or get caught in the set. That is a degree of attractiveness!

I will add this. There is a big difference in the use of grab and die sticks verse M-44's. M-44's need to be grabbed and pulled to do their job. Not just walk up to and lick. On a grab and die stick all they have to do is approach it close enough to investigate or lick.

Or pee on it

Yup & Yup! The more answers to questions we search out the more dad-burn questions arise!!

Seldom's observations pretty much square up with what I see while test stuff on my coyotes. I will say that I see a reluctance to work a lure or bait in the first 48 hours that I blame on the presence of human odor.

A well formulated lure will negate that to a degree, but human scent is just one reason. Lots of stuff going on inside a coyotes head when they hit the scent cone. All coyotes are cautious some a lot more than others. Like Seldom I've got a few that changes there mind set. I found those by testing in my area. I sent one of those to Seldom a few years ago, its a killer here but Seldom didn't get a reaction when he tested on his line.

That’s one of the real benefits of using cameras, all activity is recorded within the range of the camera. It has been my observation and experience that if a coyote is in the frame and downwind of the test site at any time after I leave, I will get a reaction to the test scent and not to me. Again, the camera tells all and the observation of body language is huge and very valuable to me.

I don’t spend near as much time at the test site as if I were making a set so initially I wondered if I was going to see coyotes that came through hours (that night as an example) after I was there being stand-offish or showing fear by running away but the answer for me is a definite no. None of the coyotes I’ve videoed that came in the first night did I ever observe them reacting to my having been there. Once they’ve encountered the scent it becomes their focal point even if the scent is a relatively low attraction to them, they will acknowledge it being there in some manner of body language.

I still have not figured out why some scents don’t work in my tests but work for others. There are scents that work very well for me but don’t work in other parts of the country. I sometimes wonder if the soil ph has an effect on the lures and baits I test and subsequently use on my line. That fact is the main reason I never make public the scents I test or use for that matter is because I feel that I could be doing an injustice to those scent manufacturers trying to make a living producing them! BTW, when I test I never use a holder, I apply the lures and baits directly on the damp soil in the hole the same as when I apply scent to a working set.

I've never seen a coyote " spook" at my scent on camera but they won't work a scent or commit very hard the first night or two. Out of hundreds of test holes 95% percent of the digging come on the third night.
Still picture from a video of the best formulation I've ever tested. It was first night on the test. 5 yotes in pic but another part of video there were 6. I might of caught one or two of the coyotes but they barely got within 9 inches and didn't stay very long. By the third night and after I would have caught about every coyote that came by. By a week the 2 inch hole had turned into a post hole.

Boy Yes Sir, that is very interesting to see that many coyotes at a scent test sight! It’s an occasion for me to have 2, usually lone singles. I did have 5 pups at a test I think in Sept once and all 5 tried digging the test hole at the same time.

I haven't used a camera a ton but I don't think that is normal. I will say we were calving out about 250 momma cows 1/2 west of there
I'm thinking that was what the excitement was about. But that spot has always been great for testing.

When you get yourself a good camera Yes Sir that does videos you’ll think you’re in heaven watching those coyotes work the tests! Christmas every time you pull a card!

What’s your trap placement on G&D

Hand width out to the jaw or closer, offset downwind side. Levers at 10 and 4. For both Red Fox and Coyotes. After many misses and observations, in most situations closer is better. Tracks further out are more random.

Yes Sir , do you and Seldom think the light from the camera causes more caution? I notice in Yes sirs pic with multiple coyotes they standing on the fringe of the light.

I spoke with Charlie Dobbins about why some lures work so well for some and not others. Short version is our personal body chemistry and how it effects lures. He compared it to Aunt Millie's cookies. Even though others use the same ingredients Aunt Millie's always tasted best.

Dangit Seldom what camera do you recommend?

No, not the cameras I use anyway. I’ve had some setups very close to the test site, some so close that I couldn’t see what was going on when the coyotes worked the set and I’ve had coyotes track me from the test site to the camera and go back and work the test. I’ve heard of many people having problems along those lines but not mw with these cameras.

I use Browning Advantage Spec PS Model BTC-8A cameras. I use a 20 sec video setup, never photos. I want to see the coyote's body language and foot placements at the test sites. Because the cameras are very sensitive I've learned to be a litte choosy as to my test sites, I can't have too much waving weeds or moving branches within range of the camera or I'll windup wading through a huge amount of waving weed footage in between coyotes! LOL The up side is these cameras don't seem to eat batteries like I've heard others do. I highly recommend that model camera. I also purchased the swivel tree mount and that has paid for itself when it comes to lining-up to view the test site.

Using cameras are a huge game changer from doing what I did for many, many years, find s test site that 1st had coyote sign and 2nd a ground condition where I could read sign. What a blessing not to have those conditions anymore to test, just find coyotes! LOL

I have to believe it’s something along those lines. Another reason for not naming names!

Gary I tried about four different brands before I found one that I felt didn't affect the coyotes reaction. I've got 2 different models of Browning Dark opps cameras that don't seem to have any effect on coyotes or at worst maybe a very slight effect occasionally. I do feel from reading sign they occasionally miss some action and it makes me a little frustrated. In Locklears teachers of the night video the cameras had a huge influence on the coyotes action. I think in the pic I posted above they were all just hanging out down wind of lure more so than shying away from camera. I haven't completely bought into the idea about lures working different for different people but I do try to keep an open mind. If I had someone that did side by side testing of same 2 lures as I had tested and got different results than I did I'd become more of a believer. So from talking with the few people I have that actually have tested some of the same stuff I have the results have been fairly consistent.

The biggest problem I’m having with my testing is finding coyotes on property that will let me hang cameras and it’s getting worse each year. Usually it’s that there isn’t any coyotes using the property that year. I have a lot of people hanging their own cameras to watch the deer and don’t want their “deer sanctuary” disturbed where just a few years ago there wasn’t a problem. Deer are king in Michigan! LOL

I also have the night coyote hunters that don’t want me hanging cameras on particular hunting areas. So I have another layer of permissions to obtain to test on a property.

Last year when testing grubstake lures/baits I found coyotes in State lands about 3/4 mile in and it was walkable to get there and still I had to be very careful where I tested and hung cameras because of the dog-walkers. I told the wife I was going to quit testing after last year’s testing but like I said before, I’m not satisfied with the grubstake work.

How high off the ground is the top of the stick

This book will get you pointed in the right direction 124.
Major Boddicker's "Crit'R Gettin': The Use of the M-44 and Coyote Getters" Book

I'll just throw this out there. I'm by no means an expert on cameras and testing but over time have seen reactions that suggest they have no doubt a camera is there. The current "best" cameras that i own are Browning special and dark op series as I don't routinely notice an adverse type reaction or maybe a big reaction is better description.

Seems every manufacturer advertises their camera as "invisible" or "dark", etc. What I've seen is cameras have two possible weaknesses---possibility of internal noise and the light they need to omit. In the past I looked for the specifications on the Brownings to see what they list for the light source but I found no data. I was looking as this issue can be pretty hotly debated in the night hunting world and current digital night vision and trail cameras are pretty similar in nature.

I tend to think alot of this comes down to the specific critters and their past experiences with the environment in which they are living. Just as we may see different reactions to tested lures from location to location, my take away is the same holds true with cameras and NV. There are two typical routes to take with IR on digital NV---850nm and 940nm IR LEDS. 850's are the standard equipment. 940's are not common but produce a much more subtle glow. More often than not a guy around here can turn 850 IR unit on and not get a huge reaction from a critter. But its also not uncommon to run into a critter that instantly knows whats up. Why---guess we will never know for sure but it seems likely they have seen this signature before. Personal experience is there are less events like that if running 940nm IR in this state. But you can ask others in different parts of the country or even different parts of this state and they will say they've never seen a critter spook on IR or its not the IR causing the spook.

My guess is Browning uses a more subtle IR emitter than some other manufacturers and as such their cameras cause less spooking. But as I said before, at times it appears there may be some reaction even to those cameras. Have those critters seen and experienced something bad with IR before or are they just a little more paranoid than average? Keep in mind that I currently hunt, trap and run cameras across same areas/location (for a couple of decades) so not only is it likely but i know for a fact some of those critters and I have crossed paths many times before. In this country there just aint many to go around so the reactions may just be specific to me.

BBB

Good information again. I think it was you that havr some helpful information to me a couple years ago. I believe you have even built your own cameras. I always pay attention when you give advice about trail cameras.

Thanks for the camera info. Boddicker's book is a good one. Iv'e spoke to John Graham a bit about G&Ds also. All great info. He's got a couple great formulas that work well. Just like any other technique or method its a combination of factors. John was big on texture and diameter and left them exposed, Boddicker drove them in holes, no right or wrong they both work.

As for some coyotes being camera shy, BBB nailed it some are more naturally cautious than others. If they weren't with all the pressure that species has had forever they'd all be dead. When populations are low it's worse. That's how ma nature guards the specie...
Gotta go load up the truck , setting tomorrow.