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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6420947
01/07/19 12:38 PM
01/07/19 12:38 PM
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Scuba1
I think you might be incorrect in your assertion that "The folks who built Stone Henge put it there way before christianity was thought up."
How do you know that? Stonehenge is about 5000 years old, Moses wrote the first five books of the bible nearly 4000 years ago, Abraham lived many years prior to that, and Job probably even earlier. The God they acknowledged and revered is the God of Judaism/Christianity. Technically speaking, Christianity is a sect or outgrowth of Judaism.

Last edited by waggler; 01/07/19 12:42 PM.

"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6420959
01/07/19 12:49 PM
01/07/19 12:49 PM
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The age of Stonehenge is disputable, as are all things. I'm curious about what "forced concept" Catch22 is making reference to.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6420961
01/07/19 12:50 PM
01/07/19 12:50 PM
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Who or what came first really doesn't matter much anyway. There are still probably people in far off reaches of the planet who haven't heard about the God of the Bible or Jesus Christ, they may even practice what some might call "pagan" religion. However, the scriptures of the bible acknowledge that God will judge these people justly. A person is responsible for how they respond to God's prompting.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:20


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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Posco] #6420970
01/07/19 12:59 PM
01/07/19 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Posco
The age of Stonehenge is disputable, as are all things. I'm curious about what "forced concept" Catch22 is making reference to.

Christianity was forced upon pagans. Forced conversion by making older religions illegal and punishable by death. Convert or die, which sounds a whole lot like the quran. I'm just saying, Christians say that the quran isn't true for a multitude of reasons including it wasn't written until hundreds of years after the bible. The bible came long after other religions, so why is Christianity the one real and true religion?


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6420993
01/07/19 01:24 PM
01/07/19 01:24 PM
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^^^^^^^
Happy you asked. True Christianity is the only "religion" in which God is pursuing man, and trying to get our attention. Other religions put man in the position of pursuing God, and trying to gain his attention and his acceptance of them.

Even certain sects of Christianity have adopted some of these false and Pagan practices, such as self- mutilation (nailing themselves on a cross, etc, etc). These practices are totally bassackwards. God does not want us punishing ourselves to try to gain his acceptance, he is waiting for us to accept him.

There is a famous poem written in the 1800s by a homeless, down-and-out heroin addict named Francis Thompson that describes God's pursuit of us, it's titled "The hound of heaven".


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6420999
01/07/19 01:32 PM
01/07/19 01:32 PM
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Waggler, I really enjoy your post, and not just on this thread. You have a great way of explaining things and coming across in a good way and I thank you for that. I understand what you are saying, I was brought up in a church of God, and left it. I guess my question is, Christians believe in their God, muslims believe in their thing and so on. Pagans believed in Odin, Thor and the like. Why are Christians right?


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: waggler] #6421003
01/07/19 01:34 PM
01/07/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by waggler
God does not want us punishing ourselves to try to gain his acceptance, he is waiting for us to accept him.

Being something of a staunch Calvinist, I don't view God as being a beggar. When it comes down to it, it's we who need to be found acceptable in God's sight. Until we see ourselves as God sees us, that isn't going to happen.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421009
01/07/19 01:38 PM
01/07/19 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Posco
The age of Stonehenge is disputable, as are all things. I'm curious about what "forced concept" Catch22 is making reference to.

Christianity was forced upon pagans. Forced conversion by making older religions illegal and punishable by death. Convert or die, which sounds a whole lot like the quran. I'm just saying, Christians say that the quran isn't true for a multitude of reasons including it wasn't written until hundreds of years after the bible. The bible came long after other religions, so why is Christianity the one real and true religion?


I can't think of anything off the top of my head that squares with what you're claiming. Constantine? That as 300 AD and that was strictly a political move. The RC church? The Crusades? What are you referencing?

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421021
01/07/19 01:50 PM
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The reason Christianity is a relatively new "religion" is because it couldn't exist prior to the crucifixion and resurrection. If you think about it, to be a Christian, you have to believe Judaism was the belief God instituted originally.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Posco] #6421024
01/07/19 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by waggler
God does not want us punishing ourselves to try to gain his acceptance, he is waiting for us to accept him.

Being something of a staunch Calvinist, I don't view God as being a beggar. When it comes down to it, it's we who need to be found acceptable in God's sight. Until we see ourselves as God sees us, that isn't going to happen.

Posco, that opens up a whole other debate (Calvinism vs. Arminianism), I don't want to get into that debate here, although I and my Calvinist friends do have a good time with the question.
Personally I don't think either side can really defend itself totally, I'll let God work all that out, I think it would be impossible to really know God's mind regarding some of those things anyway.

However there is nothing we can do to "be found acceptable in God's sight" only Jesus Christ was able to do anything in that regard; which was being punished in our place and paying the debt for our sin. Otherwise, it would be to our credit for our salvation if it depended on what we were able to do.


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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: waggler] #6421028
01/07/19 02:05 PM
01/07/19 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by waggler
Posco, that opens up a whole other debate (Calvinism vs. Arminianism), I don't want to get into that debate here, although I and my Calvinist friends do have a good time with the question.
Personally I don't think either side can really defend itself totally, I'll let God work all that out, I think it would be impossible to really know God's mind regarding some of those things anyway.

However there is nothing we can do to "be found acceptable in God's sight" only Jesus Christ was able to do anything in that regard; which was being punished in our place and paying the debt for our sin. Otherwise, it would be to our credit for our salvation if it depended on what we were able to do.


I had a good friend who put most of the emphasis on "free will" and we went round and round about that. I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421057
01/07/19 02:43 PM
01/07/19 02:43 PM
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After the flood there were only a handful of humans. So with all the incest how did different races and religions come to be? Why did judaism disapear completely from many parts of the world. You would think the original one true faith would have survived world wide at least among some scattered sects rather than disapear from whole continents


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #6421073
01/07/19 03:15 PM
01/07/19 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
After the flood there were only a handful of humans. So with all the incest how did different races and religions come to be? Why did judaism disapear completely from many parts of the world. You would think the original one true faith would have survived world wide at least among some scattered sects rather than disapear from whole continents

Good point.


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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: bhugo] #6421125
01/07/19 03:56 PM
01/07/19 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bhugo
Originally Posted by danny clifton
After the flood there were only a handful of humans. So with all the incest how did different races and religions come to be? Why did judaism disapear completely from many parts of the world. You would think the original one true faith would have survived world wide at least among some scattered sects rather than disapear from whole continents

Good point.

X2! Rebuttals?


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421166
01/07/19 04:35 PM
01/07/19 04:35 PM
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Interesting discussion.
Being Lutheran, I don't hold to either Calvinist double predestination or Arminian free will. smile

Catch 22, in asking why are Christiana right, this is why people often say they won't talk religion or politics. There's a discipline called apologetics, but it's more about defending the Christian faith from attacks on its validity rather proving without a doubt that it's the sole truth. Faith and hope are components of religion because the validity can't be proven utterly. So adherents of a religion believe it. It can't be *proven* right. A believer finds the religion personally compelling.

With some of the rest of the points being made there's a lot of generalizations tossed around. Pagan is a loose term to describe any polytheist and wasn't a term until quite recently that anyone would use to self identify. Christians don't consider themselves a new religion but a fulfillment of Judaism.

Judaism is a term that usually refers to the religious practices of the Jews that were developed at the time of Moses. That was hundreds of years after the time of the flood. It was an extremely simplified belief that existed before 1500 BC. With Danny's question, it's not that Judaism disappeared from parts of the world but the developed religion wasn't scattered to begin with. Regarding "incest" after the flood, the relationships would be first cousins between the three brothers' kids.
_

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421191
01/07/19 04:48 PM
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^^^^^^^
Catch22
I don't know that Judaism has disappeared from any "continents", its practice may have waned in many areas though. I think the transition of Judaism into Christianity may account for much of the change.

I'm just guessing here, but after the crucifixion of Christ (the ultimate and final sacrifice) Judaism abandoned the practice of animal sacrifice. My theory is that many, if not most Jews are subconsciously aware that there is no sense in sacrificing anything anymore, since the time of the veil tearing at the temple in Jerusalem (at the moment of Christ's death on the cross).

The original Jewish faith is still alive and has been completed within Christianity. I know my Jewish friends would have more than a little trouble accepting this hypothesis, but I think it might help explain it.

Last edited by waggler; 01/07/19 04:50 PM.

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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421218
01/07/19 05:18 PM
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Brian mall had another religious post about the first promise that God gave to people in Genesis 3. At its core, Judaism/Christianity were always looking for a child that would come from God, born of a woman, that would overthrow the devil and all authority that he had laid claim to humanity. That promise existed from the dawn of time through the time of the flood and was unpacked more during the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and eventually Moses. That promise was global, that is, it would have been scattered throughout the continents. That promise, being maligned, easily could have been the source of the belief in demigods that are scattered throughout polytheistic religions.

Most all of the animal sacrifices in Judaism were to be at the temple. Since the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD the Jews have had no place to sacrifice. That ended the sacrificial system. God used the Romans to end the sacrificial system because Christ had come as the final sacrifice. The Jewish mindset had to change from then on; either recognize that what Judaism had looked for (the Messiah/Christ) had come and embrace Christianity or reevaluate Judaism in the light of no sacrifices ever again except for the passover lamb.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421219
01/07/19 05:19 PM
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Hmm

As a Christian, we are all called out of one life style or the other. Those lifestyles have influenced Christian "cultures" for sure! But none have been around longer than God or Christ. But all those have left God/Christ.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421226
01/07/19 05:24 PM
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There is only one truly riteousness/perfect model of a life. That model or prototype is Christ! That model or prototype has been foretold from the beginning. Everything else is either vanity and/or out right t rebellion against God.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421235
01/07/19 05:33 PM
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