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Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421876
01/08/19 04:07 AM
01/08/19 04:07 AM
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trapperrev Offline
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Catch,
It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of the big things you're bothered by is that christianity is the new kid on the block.
I think Scuba is the one who mentioned 4000 some religions.
Scuba, btw, you make me jealous by your very existence every time you post! I'd love to get scuba certified but landlocked Nebraska doesn't really lend itself to that.

I'm gonna ramble a bit cause there doesn't seem to be much common ground to make any assumptions here other than we all trap and can write English. There's been a lot of generalizations tossed out and not all add up, kind of like someone saying "all furbearers spray". Most of us know better than that. Except Hal. wink I get a kick out of Hal.

Those 4000+ religions are kind of a misnomer. Most of them can be lumped together into categories. For example, Christianity isn't considered one religion but each denomination in Christianity is counted as a separate religion because it's a separate "group". That can make the list very long but not have a profound variety of religions. Not all of those 4000 have deities or gods. Buddhism, for example, has no god. Some religions are straight forward acknowledging that they are new and don't claim an "ancient" status, that concept isn't important to them. Not all religions claim that they were first. Nor do all religions condemn all other religions - Ba'Hai, for example, basically teaches that idea of "can't we all just get along" and there's truth in all religions.

They can be boiled down a bit into their respective species and just as mink, beaver and coyote have their distinctive smells, these have similar "odors" to distinguish them from the rest. You can argue the difference between a ranch mink and a wild mink but (I assume) they both smell the same.

First you've got the big three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You could lump Zoroastrianism in there but it never amounted to much. They all teach a resurrection of the dead at a coming Last Day.

Then there's the Eastern religions as a whole that really have no god, teach a generic good way of life and possibly reincarnation, hoping to end the cycle and avoid the physical realm. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Wuism...

Also paganism...in many, many, many forms. There's all of the cultural gods - some governed a country some an element... Greek, Roman, Babylon, Norse, Egyptian, Hittite, Akkadian... Native American, various African, aboriginal, Polynesian... There's old paganism that was just called "paganism" by Christians and new paganism that embrace the term paganism, like Wicca...unless it's the kind of Wicca that has no gods and is more like the eastern religions. Some of these cross borders from one category to another. There's so many but all have a similarity of various gods and/or nature worship.

Last is Hinduism and those religions connected to it/derived from it. Hinduism is like nailing jello to a wall. Some Hindus are polytheists like paganism and some believe in the generic way of life/reincarnation like eastern religions.

In terms of which came first...really, you have Judaism (Christianity and Islam are both dependent on it, in a sense), eastern religions in general, paganism in general, and Hinduism.

The eastern religions...the concept has been around but Confucius wrote down some of this roughly 500 BC. The ideas, some would say, go back to near 1500 BC but based on oral tradition or looser writings that Confucius consolidated.

Paganism in general - depends on which particular culture or group of gods you single out. Some aren't around any more. Knowledge of the old ones is based utterly on what was actually written down for some kind of preserved record. The biblical area in general is also where the oldest archaeological finds are of paganism, as well as the beginning of writing. The Hittites, for example, were around about the same time the very oldest Hindu writings were begun - both are supposed to be about 1700-1100 BC. Sumerian records are much older as they're the ones who are supposed to have invented writing (with three sided sticks, if I remember right). They're easily 1000 years older than most other religions. They're also not around anymore which leaves me to conclude they had puny gods. smile The Babylonians - there's record of the Code of Hammurabi. It's from about that 1700 BC time frame as well. That has a lot of laws similar to the ten commandments and some biblical laws, which shouldn't be surprising because they were from the same general area and relatively close to the same time.

The very earliest Hindu writings date to that really vague time frame of 1700 to 1100 BC.

Judaism - the exodus of the mass of Hebrew/Israelite slaves, led by Moses, dates to 1446 BC. Moses is generally understood to have authored the book of Genesis that predates him, presumably by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Typically this is understood as being guided to accurately write down the oral tradition that existed without error rather than have a strange ecstatic mystical experience to create the writing. Moses had at other times strange mystical experiences, don't misunderstand me. But the people were in Egypt for roughly 400 years. The bulk of Genesis describes Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roughly 2000-1800 BC.

Oral tradition among all of these was important, especially in the early years. In modern day North America nearly everyone is literate so it's understandable to place great importance on the written record. But it's nearly impossible to date a religion based on oral tradition.

I would say that really early paganism and the core of what would become Judaism began roughly at the same time and that one was a maligned picture of the other. Being Christian, I think paganism is what screwed up. Hinduism came not long after and was a confusing mix. And eastern religions are really the new kid on the block.

Judaism, for most of it's history, was looking for a "messiah". There's a promise of an individual to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham, to David and the idea is explained more throughout the old testament of a specific one who would come from God to be a savior. Christianity emerged not as a new religion but the fulfillment of Judaism and what it had been looking for. Judaism continued because many Jews didn't believe that Jesus was the promised messiah and now Jews either still look for a messiah to come or have reinterpreted the promises to mean something different. Judaism fundamentally changed 2000 years ago and became something different.

Semi-random side note. 666...the meaning: in the book of Revelation there's no gray area - people are either on one side of the fence or the other. It's implied and expected the readers would get the idea that 7 was a number of perfection and 6 was a pretender number - wanting to be God but falling short. People were either marked/baptized with 777, the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or, if not, they were marked with the pretender, unholy trinity, the devil, the beast and the other beast that had been introduced in the book by that point.

Regarding forced conversion...no one was ever forcibly converted to Judaism. Typically you were born into it. The first few hundred years of christianity it was illegal and if anything, Christians were forced to deny it. Constantine made Christianity legal but it was hundreds of years before the was much forced conversion. Yep, sadly it existed. It was a bad thing. It's the typical human reaction to getting power and favoring their special interest. It doesn't make it ok.

The big bang theory is a guess. It's just as much based in faith as any religion. True science getting repeatable results is impossible with evolution. There's good science that concludes a young earth, however there's also a lot of really sloppy science by well intentioned Christians that has made the idea of a scientific young earth laughable.

Unique concepts in Christianity. Death and resurrection of a deity isn't a new thing. But the death of the deity (Jesus) for the benefit of people, and not for their agricultural benefit or earthly benefit but as a sacrificial act on behalf of the deity (and not the people) to provide an eternal life for them. That's unique to Christianity. Also the resurrection of the dead is unique to Judaism/Christianity...and Islam (the skunk of religions). A physical resurrection...nor reincarnation, not zombies...

"The bible was written to control people." Not sure what you mean. I have some rules to control my kids but it's to keep them safe or keep general order in the house. Though we may disagree with them, each state has trapping regs to control harvest. Is that what you mean? Or a different kind of control?

One of the quirks that has come up with the difference between Judaism and Christianity is how the law is viewed. The law had set the Jews aside as unique because the Messiah would come from him. Once he had come the unique laws were understood in the new testament to have been fulfilled.

Don't know if this answers any of the questions satisfactorily. It's long enough...it should count as more than one post. 😂😂😂

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: trapperrev] #6421879
01/08/19 04:40 AM
01/08/19 04:40 AM
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[quote=trapperrev]Catch,
.




Regarding forced conversion...no one was ever forcibly converted to Judaism. Typically you were born into it. The first few hundred years of christianity it was illegal and if anything, Christians were forced to deny it. Constantine made Christianity legal but it was hundreds of years before the was much forced conversion. Yep, sadly it existed. It was a bad thing. It's the typical human reaction to getting power and favoring their special interest. It doesn't make it ok.


Your part about no forced conversions to Judaism isn't exactly true. During the Maccabean war they forced the Idumean people that was of Esau's bunch. They forced them to Judaism and out of that lot came Herod. The one that killed all the babies. The sin cost them all of those babies.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6421935
01/08/19 08:11 AM
01/08/19 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
PAskinner that is the biggest load of bull posted in this entire thread. You are saying that because I do not believe in your deity it makes me a thief ??? I sure do not need or want a god to tell me whats right and wrong. My argument stands firm that treating people as one want to be treated works without the belief in a deity of any sort. War between religions on the other hand would not happen if you take religion out if that equation. Christians and Muslims have been beating the snot out of each other for millennia. And with the added user perversion of priests blessing the weapons used to kill the opposition.




Scuba. Have you ever stole,anything in you life?
Then what does that make,you?

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421945
01/08/19 08:23 AM
01/08/19 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Pawnee
I’m not a theologian, but there is a big difference between religious. Pagan, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity. All other religions salvation is earned. Christianity it’s given free by God’s grace, no strings attached. Grace

You mean unless you believe that Christ is your savior, that's not a string?


No sir Catch. We have free will. You believe or don’t believe. Grace is a free gift take it or not.


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421947
01/08/19 08:25 AM
01/08/19 08:25 AM
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Trapperrev, thanks for posting that. Good read


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6421950
01/08/19 08:31 AM
01/08/19 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
I sure do not need or want a god to tell me whats right and wrong.


So, true! I think this is by far the most profound statement in this entire thread. It is the very crux of the story of the fall of Adam's race. That statement truly gets to the core nature of mankind as described in the Bible. If you were to try to lay out the basic tenets of Christianity on one page, that would be one of the first couple of sentences.

Scuba1, you have perfectly and succinctly said about yourself exactly what the Bible claims is the central nature of each one of us. Thank you for so forcefully providing a real world example to show the wisdom and truth of God's Word.


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6421976
01/08/19 09:01 AM
01/08/19 09:01 AM
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Some one said they had 4000 different religions
But that is not true. There are only 2, one worships the one and only GOD (the creater,and sustainer of all things),
And the other worships created things.
Wether you know it or not all people worship one or the other.
What do you worship? What do you trust in? Is it yourself?

Do unto others?
Have you stolen ?have you lied?have you cheated,have you hate in you heart? Ect etc etc...... ever?
Have you violated your own laws.? You can't even control yourself. Be honest

I'm glad I have a GOD that is perfect. . That is,who I trust in

My GOD is the only one who not only make laws for us to live by to protect us,from ourselves and others,
He is also the one who has the power to fufill them himself.

You find that one you know you got the right one

Last edited by chickenwing; 01/08/19 09:15 AM.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Foxpaw] #6422006
01/08/19 09:27 AM
01/08/19 09:27 AM
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Foxpaw,

You'd mentioned:
Your part about no forced conversions to Judaism isn't exactly true. During the Maccabean war they forced the Idumean people that was of Esau's bunch. They forced them to Judaism and out of that lot came Herod. The one that killed all the babies. The sin cost them all of those babies.

Yep, forgot about that. Thanks.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6422011
01/08/19 09:32 AM
01/08/19 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
PAskinner that is the biggest load of bull posted in this entire thread. You are saying that because I do not believe in your deity it makes me a thief ??? I sure do not need or want a god to tell me whats right and wrong. My argument stands firm that treating people as one want to be treated works without the belief in a deity of any sort. War between religions on the other hand would not happen if you take religion out if that equation. Christians and Muslims have been beating the snot out of each other for millennia. And with the added user perversion of priests blessing the weapons used to kill the opposition.

I'm not saying you are anything. I'm asking why we should treat each other a certain way, if there is no law but the law of survival of the fittest? You say you don't want a god to tell you right from wrong. Then, what is right and wrong? It can be anything! Now in some religions, I'm told that lying to your enemy is considered a good thing. Again, why are they wrong? All you have is: "It's wrong because I say it is." Really?


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6422012
01/08/19 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
To ad to that...... It looks like you need that belief in god, to stop you from running amok and I am happy for you that you have it.

Yeah, because I'm a sinner and I know it. And so is everyone else, and you know it, or you would not say we should act a certain way. There is no "should" in a world without an ultimate authority, there is only survival.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Catch22] #6422014
01/08/19 09:37 AM
01/08/19 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Catch22
[/quote]
Yes I do. Because of what was written before what you proclaim as God. I am a pagan, reckon.

What was written? By whom? What gods or goddesses do you worship?


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Foxpaw] #6422015
01/08/19 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by KeithC
Can anyone point to a single concept in Christianity, that was not previously in another religion. I can't think of any.

Keith


I already responded to this by saying; Is there another religion where the shepard dies for the sheep?

Does this meet the single concept you are looking for?

Every other religion is about trying to be good enough to please a god. Only Christians have a God who came down and became us to save us from ourselves. It's not about trying to be good enough. It's about believing He already has done what was needed to save us. It's not a performance, it's a relationship.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: PAskinner] #6422019
01/08/19 09:42 AM
01/08/19 09:42 AM
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Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: chickenwing] #6422023
01/08/19 09:47 AM
01/08/19 09:47 AM
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[quote=chickenwing
Scuba. Have you ever stole,anything in you life?
Then what does that make,you?[/quote]

Yes I have . And I will never forget it.. It was an oil lamp from a road building site. It ended up being the one and only whooping of my life I got for that from my grand father. Does that make me a thief ?? You figure it out.


Let's go Brandon

"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: trapperrev] #6422039
01/08/19 09:59 AM
01/08/19 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by trapperrev
Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?


But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut

Then there was the matter of working for a girl 7 years and not getting her but her sister.

Then there is getting the first born blessing , if it wasn't lying it was a misconseption

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: trapperrev] #6422047
01/08/19 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by trapperrev
Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?



Not good!
5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these even

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: trapperrev] #6422048
01/08/19 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by trapperrev
Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?



When the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) crowed Peter said no I don't know Him

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: trapperrev] #6422060
01/08/19 10:24 AM
01/08/19 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by trapperrev
Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?


Nehemiah
17-18 Then I gave them my report: “Face it: we’re in a bad way here. Jerusalem is a wreck; its gates are burned up. Come—let’s build the wall of Jerusalem and not live with this disgrace any longer.” I told them how God was supporting me and how the king was backing me up.

They said, “We’re with you. Let’s get started.” They rolled up their sleeves, ready for the good work.

"And then there was that little white lie "the Mexicans are paying for it" Sorry couldn't help it! The Devil made me do it.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: PAskinner] #6422062
01/08/19 10:29 AM
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Foxpaw,
Earlier PAskinner said this:
Originally Posted by PAskinner

Now in some religions, I'm told that lying to your enemy is considered a good thing.

I had assumed he meant another religion other than Christianity.

You sent three messages - your first you have examples of people lying. Jacob lying to get Esau's blessing and Laban lying about which daughter he's giving in marriage - neither are ever described as good. They're just not explicitly condemned.
Rahab...yep. Good example

Ananias and Saphira are clear examples of lying being bad, not good, as is Peter's denial of Jesus when the rooster crows.

Re: How much has paganism influenced Christianity [Re: Scuba1] #6422069
01/08/19 10:34 AM
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We,all are scuba
I hope you have a day full of love ,joy , peace,patence,kindness,goodness,faithfulness,gentleness,and self control

Last edited by chickenwing; 01/08/19 10:38 AM.
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