One of the biggest problems public schools have is that they are public. All students, with very few exceptions, of an age, can attend. Public schools get stuck with the problem students, who are disruptive, unmotivated, who have learning disabilities, who can't speak the English language and who have low intelligence, that private schools can refuse to take in. Public schools, of course, also get normal and some higher quality students too.

I think assuring that children receive a great, quality education is one of the most important things that government can do. Unfortunately many parents won't or can't put the time and thought needed into educating their own children or arranging for someone else to educate their children, so the government has to do it.

I think it is of great benefit, to the American populace, that the population is educated as much as is reasonably possible. I think teachers should be paid a decent, if not extravagant salary. I don't believe that bad teachers should keep their jobs. Teachers should be easy to fire. Tenure should not exist in government jobs. Teachers need to be evaluated frequently and poor performing teachers should be immediately let go. Class sizes should be small enough, that the students in them, can receive enough attention, to help them reach their potential.

If you have read many of my posts, you know I am fairly conservative. I don't think that liberal educators have any place in the US educational system. That said, I don't think children should be brain washed into being conservatives either. Children should be taught facts and how to analyze them, so they can form their own opinions. If that happens, I have no doubt they will grow up with common sense, conservative values.

Keith

I remember when I was getting school vouchers for 1/3 of what was spent on publicly educated children. The great part was how elitist I felt.

P.S. we didn't spend a half of the third.

She was one of the good ones. Sadly, not too many of them left anymore.

Trapper7, how do you know so much about the education system in this country?

Well put Keith C. I agree with your thought path. Now the real question is how is this done? As you mentioned, the public school system is a recipient of all students; low ability, average, and high flyers. A huge percentage of dollars and time is funneled to those students that are special ed, insubordinate, or low ability. As a teacher I can tell you that 80% of my time is spent with 20% of my students. Unfortunately that group of students seems to continuously be growing. So what do we do with that group of students that's eating up the largest percent of our time and money? They do need the time, they do require 1 on 1 staffing at times. If not given these things, we are basically pushing them onto the streets, into welfare, or into our prison system. They don't have a chance.
School staff have lost the authority to look at a kid the wrong way, make them feel bad, or touch them. It's very hard to discipline a child at school that has no discipline at home or consequences from actions at school once they get home.
I'm all for dumping tenure, unions, etc. if it helps the problem at hand here. I believe the problem is a macro cultural problem and schools can be part of the solution.

That would be a great place to start. Knowing your being held accountable for results is a great motivator.

I have absolutely no problem with that, Catch 22. There aren't too many professions out there where workers don't have to be held accountable. So then the question becomes, what is the standard that teachers are held accountable against? Is it state and federal testing scores? High school graduation percentages? Number of students from a classroom that are sent to the office or calls home to parents?
How would it be fair if the best teachers had to teach the low performing and special ed students of a school in their classroom because they know how to handle them? Now their classroom test scores will not be near the scores of the teacher next door that has the "high flyers." Should these special ed teachers be paid more for what they have to deal with or be paid less because their students don't score as well on tests?

I still maintain that the core issue here is how soft, complacent, and entitled so many children today seem to be. And at times the mental health needs that students have. It's hard to find a kid with grit. Great things can happen with a little motivation but much time is spent in the classroom just trying to motivate students or redirect behaviors and not actually teach academics. Maybe we take public education money and use it in a more preventative manner? Put it into the betterment of mental health in our society? Or parenting classes? Put a halt to many of these issues before kids get into the classroom? I'm all ears.

"It’s called decision by committee, in which decisions are made based on input from a large group of people – people who tend not to agree. Over the years, decision by committee has been considered a time-waster. Sure, every committee member has the right to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. In fact, many uninformed opinions are dead wrong. "

Great post atrapper. I agree with all you said and yes, I think a lot of your suggestions need to be incorporated back in to teaching. Getting rid of the unions imo is paramount to seeing better test scores along with a lot of other things. Another thing would be to train the teachers to be un-biased in there teaching. No more bringing their own agenda's and ideologies in to the classroom, teach both sides of the coin and let the kids decide where they want to land. Get the Gov out of education and give back curriculum control to the municipalities. There are a lot of things imo that fall on the teachers themselves but I know that Gov interference and poor parenting are factors too.

Catch22 I'll give you $16,000 a year for each of your children to spend on their education. Good luck! KISS

Dirt, who would this committee consist of? School employees such as peer teachers and administrators? Parents, community members, school board members? All of the above? How do you get on the committee? Whose opinions hold the most weight? In theory this seems like a good idea. The obvious fear would be that those committee members that garner the most power would be bias toward an employee for various reasons or not be well informed enough of the employees day to day work load, class test scores, classroom demeanor, or relationships with students.

As it stands now in public education, in Minnesota anyhow, that person that must have knowledge of an employees work load, class test scores, classroom demeanor and management, and relationship with students is the school principal or superintendent. For the first three years of a teachers careers, they are scrutinized, observed, met with, and held accountable by the principal and/or superintendent as well as a peer mentor (in most cases). If that teacher doesn't meet the needs or standards of that principal or superintendent for any reason during those first three years of employment (including district budget cuts), they are let go. I am one, know many, and have met many teachers that have been let go by districts for one of the above reasons. In essence, this three year trial period is a way for districts to see if you cut the mustard and gives them flexibility from a financial standpoint to adjust class sizes and put personnel where they're needed most. As most know, the largest benefit from a longevity standpoint here is that if you survive the first three years at a district and are tenured, you're pretty well good to go and it's very difficult to get rid of you.

Answer= homeschooling. The only way to know what your children are learning. Although some states are trying to not allow homeschooling, wonder why that is?

Catch 22, first lets stop and think about what state and federal testing is and does. It's a way to line every kid up side by side and compare their ability to answer a math question, read and comprehend a story, or read so many words correct per minute. But do we want every kid to be cut from the same mold? Don't we want kids to find their passion in life and pursue a career in that or hone whatever skill it is that they're best at and take that skill to find a career in? So then why do we need standardized state or federal testing?
Now, if we can't hold teachers accountable based on test scores, what should we do?

My point is that yes, even if it is tenured teachers or unions that are creating complacent teachers, there still needs to be a consistent and logical way to hold teachers accountable and I don't believe standardized testing is it. It's a cultural or maybe system wide issue that needs to be addressed first. Our education system should be teaching to students abilities, not to a standardized test that declines students their individual interests and diversity. However, in order to do that, you'd better have a heck of a lot of classrooms or at least a heck of a lot of teachers because right now many elementary classrooms have 30 students in them and are struggling to teach to a standardized test let along trying to diversify and teach to individual students skills and abilities. Our society needs to put more emphasis on work ethic and let that lead students to careers that may include skilled trades OR college.

As far as the argument for teachers not bringing their own agendas into the classroom....good luck. In a perfect world, this would happen but whether you're a teacher or not it's human nature to preach what you believe based on your personal experiences and opinion. It's my opinion that teachers already have their hands tied with what they can't and can do in the classroom and I believe this is what's partly to blame for so much of the insubordination that's seen in classrooms today. Teachers aren't supposed to talk about God or religion in the classroom either and look where that's gotten us. I don't think that more regulations are needed in the classroom. All that said, I agree that these young, impressionable mind should be left to make their own decisions when it comes to politics.

Reasonable but I'd adjust the athletics - End all school funding athletics. Go ahead and have the gym teacher or someone else coach the football team and play games at the school field. Kids pay for their gear and transportation. No building multimillion dollar athletic centers.

Much more emphasis on vocational education. College is great for some, not for all and not necessary. From what I remember Germany has a very good program. By 10th or 11th grade you're put in a vocational pipeline.

bleeohio, you're right. Home schooling is the only way that parents will know what's going in and coming out of their child. I admire any family that is financially and intellectually able to home school their children. The problem is that because of the way our society has transformed, it's very difficult for middle class families to only have one working adult and still be able to provide for the family. It also takes a special parent to stick with their child through the home schooling process from an academic standpoint and find the time to allow that child the social interactions that they need.
I'm a 3rd grade teacher. In my 10 years of teaching, I've had 4 kids enter my class that were previously home schooled. They came to public education because either the parent just couldn't do it anymore emotionally or the child was low academically and the parents were at a loss of how to reach their child. These students had a very difficult time acclimating to the social atmosphere of being in a classroom with 20 peers. The social aspect is the biggest thing that home schooled children miss. If they are home schooled until 12th grade, now they are having to enter society as an 18 year old that has had very little interaction, confrontation, or conflict resolution with peers. This doesn't always bode well when it comes to getting and sticking with a job in the "real world." I'm not knocking home schooled children here because some of the very best students I've known were home schooled and had more grit and common sense knowledge than many I've seen in the classroom, but there are many things to consider when home schooling.

How is that gong to help when the home is the problem in the first place. I know when I was a kid if I got in trouble at school I was in trouble at home no questions asked period. I have a daughter-in-law that is a teacher, junior high. A girl in one of her classes called her a b---- preceded with a agitative. Off to the office she goes. When the girls mother is told what her daughter said, the mothers remark was she probably derserved it. There is only one way to correct that kind of behavior and it has to be a home, and in most of the behavior problems that is not going to happen.

You have to ask yourself just how healthy an environment public schools are when we see the motivation for curtailing our gun rights driven by kids killing each other in public schools.

Say you got two kids and choose to homeschool them. You can buy plenty of educational material for both with $4,000 and you or your wife can keep the extra $28,000 tax free so one of you don't have to work.

Classroom size will be 2 students per teacher.

Posco, I asked myself and then I found the answer right above your post. You nailed it teepee2. Young people need direction from their home. If they're to the point of bringing a gun to school then there has been something absent from home. The closest thing to an adult in public schools that can define, interfere, and work a student through these types of mental issues is a school counselor....and by the way, there's about 1 counselor for every 400 students. At best! These students need a stable home life before they can function properly at school. Or again, maybe we need to be proactive and take some of this education money and focus it on mental health and proper parenting techniques.

Dirt, I wish more parents cared enough to actually consider doing this. It would be a huge step in showing their child that they come before themselves and that education is important.