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Fox color variation #6450558
02/03/19 11:33 PM
02/03/19 11:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,035
wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline OP
trapper
danvee  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
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wyoming southeast
I got to wondering after reading trapping articles, talk on trapperman and other sources what causes fox color variations ie Cross and silver. In reading it seems like most come from far northern regions Canada and Alaska and not as many here in the lower 48. I know it is genetic but would being farther north have something to do with it. Been trapping for 40 plus years in the west in good fox populations but have only got 2 cross fox heard of a couple others and never of a silver.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6450722
02/04/19 08:54 AM
02/04/19 08:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 165
sd
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renny1 Offline
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sd
The silver (black) fox mutated in two different places at nearly the same time. Alaska and Eastern Canada. they were not exact mutations, they mutated in different places in their dna. When they were bred together they produced cross fox. I would think most cross were spread by fox farm releases when prices dropped.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6450830
02/04/19 11:53 AM
02/04/19 11:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 390
Idaho
Marten Ted Offline
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Marten Ted  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 390
Idaho
Out of the 7 fox I caught this year 5 were crosses. I know there are silvers in my area too but less common. My experience has been that I have caught mostly reds down lower by the ranch land and the river and the crosses I almost always catch in the densely forested high elevation areas where I trap marten. I do know that some of the cross fox genetics in my are come from ranches that were released in the past, but my theory is that by natural selection the crosses are better camouflaged than the reds and survive better in the pine forest and although there is some crosses down in the river bottom areas, and even the desert areas, my experience has been that high elevation pine forest with dark timber produces far more crosses.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451019
02/04/19 04:46 PM
02/04/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

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Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
The gene that determines the color phase is carried by all foxes.......obviously. Color is determined by 2 different genes that combine in dominant and recessive forms to create three basic color phases in a wild population.

IF one parent carries the recessive gene AND passes it during breeding the result will be a cross fox. If BOTH parents carry and pass the recessive gene, the result will be a silver. It has nothing to do with ranch fox except perhaps in a local area where there are released animals

There are two different combinations of dominant and recessive genes that will create a red phase. Also two combinations that will produce a cross phase and 5 combinations that will produce a silver.

But you are correct Danvee....that the incidence of both cross and silver increases with latitude.


Mean As Nails
Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451034
02/04/19 05:07 PM
02/04/19 05:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,154
Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Alaska and Washington State
The northern reaches of North America, and then down into the high elevations of the Cascade Mountain range of Washington and Oregon (I'm not sure about the northern Rocky's) is a native red fox that has a very high proportion of cross and silver/black foxes. Foxes found in the eastern part of the USA are rather recent immigrants resulting from introduced European red fox and possibly migration from western foxes. I don't believe that color phase foxes are very common in the foxes that were brought to North America from across the Atlantic. I imagine the English brought them from England for fox hunting.

I was involved with supplying Cascade red fox carcasses from Washington State's Cascade Mountains for DNA analysis. The study showed that there has been no interbreeding of these high elevation native foxes and the low elevation introduced foxes. Crosses and blacks are very common in Cascade fox, and pretty much nonexistent in the introduced lowland fox.

Interesting reading: https://www.mammalogy.org/articles/...ted-states-translocations-or-natural-ran


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451052
02/04/19 05:24 PM
02/04/19 05:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
Those Cascades and the Sierra red foxes are some interesting anomalies. They are so elevation specific that it opens up all sorts of neat questions.


Mean As Nails
Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451060
02/04/19 05:37 PM
02/04/19 05:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,441
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"
Sharon  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,441
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
I so appreciate discussions like this cool

Re: Fox color variation [Re: Sharon] #6451210
02/04/19 09:15 PM
02/04/19 09:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,035
wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline OP
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wyoming southeast
It is interesting and better than politics! I am sure that White 17 is right has nothing to do with ranch fox reason being I read historical records that in Canada the silvers were there when the first trappers came and in the turn of the century when fur was very fashionable especially with the rich that extreme prices were paid for silvers to breed for ranch purposes. One of the books I read in some cases $1000 was paid for female silvers! That was a lot of money then but Im guessing because of the lack of transportation up north it was not an easy task to get one to market. I also think the darker color in the silver was a favorable genetic mutation to absorb heat in the winter.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451279
02/04/19 09:58 PM
02/04/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,121
Manitoba
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Northof50 Offline
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Manitoba
Knew a trapper in the 1930's that was trapping Red squirrels and he caught a silver fox, took it to a fur farm alive and got a years wages from it. That set him off to a lifetime of trapping and travel in northern Manitoba. He was the first one to translate swampy Cree into gramatic syibals and translate/ write .

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451417
02/05/19 12:14 AM
02/05/19 12:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,035
wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline OP
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wyoming southeast
read the same kind of sale in a book by Gus D' Aoust a barren land trapper they were worth a lot of money then.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451453
02/05/19 01:22 AM
02/05/19 01:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,067
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Wyoming
Danvee, based on another post you made about coyote vs cat catches up or down, there is a silver fox living within a few miles of you it is jet black I've seen it three times back in November. Was in the city limits near the river. Definitely did a double take the first time I saw it.


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451719
02/05/19 12:47 PM
02/05/19 12:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,035
wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline OP
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wyoming southeast
Well maybe get lucky next year or better yet hope it does some breeding first litter I guess might be some cross fox.

Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6451728
02/05/19 12:57 PM
02/05/19 12:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,664
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

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330-Trapper  Offline

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Posts: 62,664
Minnesota
Very interesting thread!!!


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Re: Fox color variation [Re: danvee] #6453083
02/06/19 07:29 PM
02/06/19 07:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 187
Idaho
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Idahotrapguy Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 187
Idaho
Here is southern Idaho I run about 20% crosses. Silvers are 1 out of 200 or so. One year I caught crazy amount though, 20 crosses and two silvers. In my experience he crosses are great fur quality and silvers are poor. No clue why


Life member of ITA, NTA, and NRA. President for Idaho Trappers Association.
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