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Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? #6458187
02/11/19 04:29 PM
02/11/19 04:29 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 161
Lebanon, Missouri
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H5Farm Offline OP
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Lebanon, Missouri
After having a forestry guy come out and go over my property that I recently purchased, which is 77 acres against the national forest it was decided that several trees needed to be harvested. There is no sign that any logging has ever occurred on this property at all. It is so full of trees so much that nothing grows on the forest floor there is no undergrowth or browse at all.

So I had a guy come out who is a "professional logger". He has good equipment, several references, his sister works with my wife and several employees. They will be harvesting most red and black oaks and some hickory trees. They will only be harvesting a few white oak trees. He is on the USDA approved loggers list, and the State Conservation area logging list. He is a clean cut guy and requires drug test for his employees he told me. He said he has a million dollars in equipment running every day. He said it would take him less than 60 days to get on site and start then 4 to 5 weeks max and be done and gone.

He wants to do a 60/40 split or $700.00 a semi truck load. He said the loads will average between $675 to $735 a load at the mill. He usually just averages them to make things go faster if people want to do it that way. He says is works faster and is less accounting for him and less of a paper trail.

The last property I sold logs on 5 years ago had really good walnut and a lot of white oaks were harvested. This was a 50/50 split deal. I had to wait until the got the receipt from the mill and cashed the check to get my share once a week. These guys also were the Meth using type and we hard to keep on task once they had some money in their pocket. The job was 80 acres and it took them 7 months.

So 60/40 split or the easy route of $700 a truck load??? There will be reportedly 20 to 24 truck loads harvested. All this money will go back into the property to put in two new ponds and 4 food plot areas as well as some equipment upgrades.

Last edited by H5Farm; 02/11/19 04:37 PM.
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458195
02/11/19 04:39 PM
02/11/19 04:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 18,725
williams,mn
trapper les Offline
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trapper les  Offline
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williams,mn
Are you trying to justify wiping out all your trees?

I wouldn't cut them down just to give some logger with a sales pitch, a temporary job, after all, it takes a while to reproduce those trees.

It's your land.


"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458198
02/11/19 04:40 PM
02/11/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 198
Henry Co, IL
3
3togo Offline
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Henry Co, IL
Ask him what he expects for the total amount of board feet he will have loaded each time on the semi. You can go to your state website and find out what they suggest is the going price per board foot for each species being harvested. You should be able to come up with an average price per truck load. However, my brother and I used to do 50/50 with landowners. That way if there are differences from load to load in price you will see the exact sale price.
We did logging part time. Our goal was always to cut 5-6000 board feet each weekend. Sometimes it would be a little more. Log buyer would come on Monday to grade and haul away.
I take it you are getting the 60%?

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458201
02/11/19 04:43 PM
02/11/19 04:43 PM
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Posts: 198
Henry Co, IL
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3togo Offline
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Henry Co, IL
Also, you have him sign an agreement that they wouldn't cut anything smaller than 20", measured 12" off the ground. You would be able to go back in 20 years and log again. You might want to keep an eye on progress if he agreed to that.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458202
02/11/19 04:44 PM
02/11/19 04:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 509
vermont
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vermontster Online content
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vermont
I personally would check with a forester. In VT the county forester will make you a forestry plan and mark trees to cut. Also hickory trees have a mast crop every year and are a good food source for deer and other wildlife. Never hurts to get a second opinion especially if it's free. VT also has a current use program that defers your taxes as much as 80-90% except the years you log then you pay the full tax for that year.


The bitterness of poor quality last a lot longer than the sweetness of low price
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: 3togo] #6458203
02/11/19 04:44 PM
02/11/19 04:44 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 161
Lebanon, Missouri
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H5Farm Offline OP
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Lebanon, Missouri
I had a forestry guy come out and survey the whole place and write up a wild life habitat paln. He was the one who said it needed logging bad as there is no cover for wildlife and the trees are choking each others full growth. The logger is a diff guy who wants the 60% cut because its less desirable wood. in the last few years around here 60 /40 their favor is what most people charge

Last edited by H5Farm; 02/11/19 04:58 PM.
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458220
02/11/19 04:56 PM
02/11/19 04:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,390
Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Alaska and Washington State
There are so many ways for a land owner to get ripped off on these logging deals I don't know where to start. I can think of more land owners who have been taken than otherwise.

You or your representative MUST be on site as any loads are leaving the property, and it's best to take a picture of each load from the back so you can get a log count. This must be agreed to in a logging contract, you must have everything in writing.

All funds should go straight from the mill into an escrow account to be dispersed as agreed to after the logging is completed. A local attorney can do this for you.

Make sure you also have an agreement as to the condition the property is to be left in, such as logging slash stacked, scattered, or chipped, etc..

I would also hide a trail camera where the trucks will be leaving the property just in case they decide to "work after hours".

Get at least one more bid, if not two.

Good luck.


My life is better than your vacation
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458223
02/11/19 04:58 PM
02/11/19 04:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 409
South Dakota
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Rhino7 Offline
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South Dakota
I have marked timber for people that is going to be cut, but I am no expert. BUT I will say that almost any logger you talk to is going to get the better end of the deal if he marks the timber to be cut. As someone suggested earlier, call your local forester and have him come out and take a look and give recommendations. Back home the local SWCD employee(who was a certified forester) would come out and inventory your timber and mark the trees to be cut. This way the ONLY trees to be cut had paint on the stump and that should be in the contract. It amazes me how many people will take the word of a logger and let them have their way with a stand of timber, it usually looks like a tornado came through when they are done. The forester should be able to give you an idea of board foot per species that has been marked and an idea on price, if he is good at his job then he will be pretty accurate. Good luck if you let him make the decisions!

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458232
02/11/19 05:05 PM
02/11/19 05:05 PM
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MN
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160user Offline
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I would do a percentage rather than a flat rate. At $700 per load he may be more inclined to just pull the good "pickles" and leave the lesser quality stuff. At a percentage there is more incentive for him to take some of the garbage too. Make sure you agree on what the logging site should look like prior to him leaving. And being it is against the National Forest GET IT SURVEYED prior to cutting anything! Even the US Forest Service surveyor may work and it should be free of charge.


I have nothing clever to put here.





Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458235
02/11/19 05:08 PM
02/11/19 05:08 PM
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Posts: 431
PA
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lumberjack391 Offline
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Go lump sum and get at least 12 bids on your timber. Why do you feel you need to have him do it?

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458237
02/11/19 05:09 PM
02/11/19 05:09 PM
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Posts: 2,351
SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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why would you trust the BUYER's word for:

a. what needs to be cut
b. how MUCH he cut
c. the QUALITY of the timber he cut
d. the spacing of the residual trees
e. the QUALITY of the residual trees
f. the QUANTITY of the residual trees
g. the VALUE of what he cut


"We didn't come all the way out here just to 'feel them on the line.' "
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458238
02/11/19 05:09 PM
02/11/19 05:09 PM
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Ohio
HondaXR250 Offline
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Sounds like a horrible deal to me. Personally id never ever cut down nut trees. If i was logging on my property, id take every tree but nut trees. All other trees are weeds

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458239
02/11/19 05:12 PM
02/11/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 391
Brazil Indiana
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harrison72 Offline
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Brazil Indiana
Unless I were seriously strapped for cash, I wouldn't log it if I were you. However,if I did decide to do some logging,I would check out prices and see what is currently in demand, timber is a comodity. For example, white oak may be extremely valuable now and hickory may be worth very little. It's your woods and I am not a professional anything, but I would make sure I wanted my woods to look like a bomb went off in it before letting a timber crew work it over for a month and a half. Best of luck.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458244
02/11/19 05:16 PM
02/11/19 05:16 PM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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giggity-giggity


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458250
02/11/19 05:19 PM
02/11/19 05:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 244
pa.
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jarentz Offline
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My friend just sold 500 trees and was paid up front before a saw was started.


jarentz
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458265
02/11/19 05:26 PM
02/11/19 05:26 PM
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rogers city mi.
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jeff karsten Offline
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rogers city mi.
A forest has to be taken care of which means thinning out some mature trees read the fine print and make sure your both on the same page as far as what gets cut I've seen blocks of timber leveled because it stated all salable timber on the contract


olden tyred
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458272
02/11/19 05:32 PM
02/11/19 05:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,986
Lower Alabama (Daleville)
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LAtrapper Offline
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Lower Alabama (Daleville)
Have you checked out this thread- Timber values- https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6287199/timber-values


Note to self- Engage brain before opening mouth (or hitting the ENTER key/SUBMIT button).

Ron Fry

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458274
02/11/19 05:34 PM
02/11/19 05:34 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 363
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Southern Illinois
We used to have a state tax which I think was 5% on timber. The game warden was in charge of that, Dont know about your state.

Wouldn't let them in during muddy months. Every tree they rub good likely will have a bad bottom in years to come.

If they will make one road like in the middle and pull to it is better than just driving in a new place every time as if looking for new path in mud.

If you can get capital gains maybe wont have to pay social security tax.

If its old timber hanging on and a storm comes thru it can cost you.

I sold timber 35 yrs ago and I'm getting mad just giving you suggestions, lol.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458276
02/11/19 05:35 PM
02/11/19 05:35 PM
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west ny
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bulldozerjoe Offline
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Iíd hire a forester, they charge around 10-15 percent,


No matter how much money you make, always eat good🐠
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458278
02/11/19 05:38 PM
02/11/19 05:38 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 16,447
potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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potter co. p.a.
www.logger haters anonamous. laugh


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458280
02/11/19 05:39 PM
02/11/19 05:39 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 161
Lebanon, Missouri
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H5Farm Offline OP
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Lebanon, Missouri
I had a forestry guy come out and survey the whole place and write up a wild life habitat plan. He was the one who said it needed logging bad as there is no cover for wildlife and the trees are choking each others full growth.

The logger is a diff guy (the same guy the forester uses if he wins the bid) who wants the 60% cut because its less desirable wood. in the last few years around here 60 /40 their favor is what most people charge. There are no veener logs. Trees too close together to reach full potential yet all the timber was put into stands and only logs will be taken from 2 of the 4 stands of timber areas.

Last edited by H5Farm; 02/11/19 05:47 PM.
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: jeff karsten] #6458284
02/11/19 05:40 PM
02/11/19 05:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,351
SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by jeff karsten
A forest has to be taken care of which means thinning out some mature trees read the fine print and make sure your both on the same page as far as what gets cut I've seen blocks of timber leveled because it stated all salable timber on the contract


there can be (and usually IS!) a great deal of difference between selling trees and MANAGING your woodlot.

hire a forester who works for YOU (not the logging company).


"We didn't come all the way out here just to 'feel them on the line.' "
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458285
02/11/19 05:41 PM
02/11/19 05:41 PM
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Posts: 16,447
potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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your gonna be broke before ya get done payin everybody.about done with half mine.


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458287
02/11/19 05:42 PM
02/11/19 05:42 PM
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Posts: 988
PENNSYLVANIA,USA
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marathonman Online content
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PENNSYLVANIA,USA
estimates are free get 2 more from reputable outfits..also one thing to think about..what is going to be done with the tops that are left..some guys leave a real mess...also in the oak market right now there is a big difference in price ..some of the best quality oak goes overseas [CHINA and GERMANY] for big bucks....lesser quality for a lot less...any woodlot can have some of both..don't be in a big hurry..its not going anywhere

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458289
02/11/19 05:42 PM
02/11/19 05:42 PM
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potter co. p.a.
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disclaimer [Linked Image]


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458293
02/11/19 05:48 PM
02/11/19 05:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
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PA
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lumberjack391 Offline
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PA
Looks like about 800 in damage

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458295
02/11/19 05:49 PM
02/11/19 05:49 PM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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boat anchor


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: pcr2] #6458299
02/11/19 05:52 PM
02/11/19 05:52 PM
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SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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SW PA
Originally Posted by pcr2
your gonna be broke before ya get done payin everybody.about done with half mine.


you can go broke a LOT quicker (and for a LOT longer!) if you screw up the management of your timber.

selling isn't "managing".


"We didn't come all the way out here just to 'feel them on the line.' "
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458302
02/11/19 05:54 PM
02/11/19 05:54 PM
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Posts: 1,332
Duluth, MN
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Clark Offline
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Duluth, MN
Since youíre in the Ozarks you need to read about Pioneer forest:

https://ladfoundation.org/pioneer-forest/pioneer-forest-management/

There are times when their style of single-tree selection canít be applied in your oak-hickory forest. However, most of the time it can. The idea originally comes from the Forest Service then they gave up on it and went with clear-cutting. Since the 50ís Pioneer has been applying the selective cut and they have healthier forests with an increasing percentage of white oak. That canít be said of Forest Service land.

Most landowners only get one shot to manage their property, why would you trust the first person who made you an offer?

Clark


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458303
02/11/19 05:56 PM
02/11/19 05:56 PM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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potter co. p.a.
absolutely,


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: white marlin] #6458316
02/11/19 06:08 PM
02/11/19 06:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 431
PA
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lumberjack391 Offline
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Originally Posted by white marlin
Originally Posted by pcr2
your gonna be broke before ya get done payin everybody.about done with half mine.


you can go broke a LOT quicker (and for a LOT longer!) if you screw up the management of your timber.

selling isn't "managing".


Just sounded like the OP wasn't too concerned with management, or money. He was going to go with the first guy and his offer.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458317
02/11/19 06:09 PM
02/11/19 06:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 276
northern indiana
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kenny k Offline
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northern indiana
Hay pcr2 how many good wild plants you thing would be gone?

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458318
02/11/19 06:09 PM
02/11/19 06:09 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 16,447
potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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potter co. p.a.
he's a good guy,he told him so. laugh


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458321
02/11/19 06:13 PM
02/11/19 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 16,447
potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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potter co. p.a.
yeah,logger prolly make a pile on the sang alone.


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458326
02/11/19 06:16 PM
02/11/19 06:16 PM
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Posts: 149
new york
mike mason Offline
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new york
Never sell timber without a forester and a signed contract. They will act as your agent and you have control over the harvest.Without,it will look like a bomb was dropped and no timber sale in your life time or your children's!

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458327
02/11/19 06:17 PM
02/11/19 06:17 PM
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E central Il
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E central Il
The last forester I talked to charged 10% and did all the leg work, he measured and marked all trees to be cut and sent out up to a hundred bid packets to loggers around the Midwest. In my case I wanted a select cut with only the ash trees removed as they were going to die anyway ! You can have YOUR timber cut anyway you want and a good forester should be more than willing to work with you if you have thoughts of your own ! If your willing to let anyone have more than 50% of your logs then I have some swamp land for sale , lol !

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458332
02/11/19 06:22 PM
02/11/19 06:22 PM
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Peoria County Illinois
Larry Baer Offline
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Peoria County Illinois
I sold timber last winter and was paid half up front and the balance when the guy pulled out with the last load as agreed. All of the trees were marked and counted and I saw the logs that were pulled out and loaded. I was happy with what the guy did. I got three quotes. One to clear cut all of it and take anything large enough for a railroad tie, one to cut about half that and the third one only wanted some larger better trees and told me he thought I needed to only cut those and to call him in 10 or 15 years and he will do it again. That's the one I hired and he did great.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458339
02/11/19 06:25 PM
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PA
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lumberjack391 Offline
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Illinois has timber??? LOL

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458340
02/11/19 06:26 PM
02/11/19 06:26 PM
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Manitoba
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Northof50 Offline
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pcr2 at least you could salvage the two caps.
Never knew what a P.A. bar looked like.

Take 160users advise and have it surveyed by a professional land surveyor, just a little oppsee over the line will cost you legal fees more that what it is worth.

Log cutting for sawing and cutting for firewood is a whole different ball game. There will be 75 % left if only high grading for lumber.

I got them to horse log our ash forest and 30 years later there is no stump damage done or visiable now. There was 25 more cords per acre from the foresters report stated.
And I got 2 weeks of free fertilizer in the end from 2 Persian horses.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458358
02/11/19 06:43 PM
02/11/19 06:43 PM
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lewis county,new york
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newfox1 Offline
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lewis county,new york
Don't shoot but I'm a forester and a logger,were not all bad just take pcr2 for instance he's a good guy.red oak is the most valuable wood ,hickory not so much.the most important thing to consider before you hire any forester or logging contractor is references,and it's your job to check them out,go look at some of thier work,a semi load should be between 5 and 6 thousand board feet.familarize yourself with some of the terms ask some questions,don't leave it up to someone else.the best questions are the one that you know the answers to.if anyone takes offense to questions there UpTo no good. Good luck!! If you have any questions on me.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458430
02/11/19 07:48 PM
02/11/19 07:48 PM
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SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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say your mom and dad left you a used car lot that you know nothing about (they bought it after you moved out of state, you haven't been back, yada yada...).

and someone offered to buy "some" of the cars from you for $1800 each...

you don't know how many are month-old Porsche 911's, or how many are 1973 Pintos. probably some BMW's, but how many?

would you sell without knowing what you have?

if you do, the buyer isn't likely to waste his time with the Pintos, but that's what YOU'LL be left with, after the sale.

Last edited by white marlin; 02/11/19 07:57 PM.

"We didn't come all the way out here just to 'feel them on the line.' "
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458432
02/11/19 07:50 PM
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lumberjack391 Offline
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Id call Mecums and have an auction

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: Golf ball] #6458435
02/11/19 07:51 PM
02/11/19 07:51 PM
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west ny
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bulldozerjoe Offline
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Originally Posted by Golf ball
The last forester I talked to charged 10% and did all the leg work, he measured and marked all trees to be cut and sent out up to a hundred bid packets to loggers around the Midwest. In my case I wanted a select cut with only the ash trees removed as they were going to die anyway ! You can have YOUR timber cut anyway you want and a good forester should be more than willing to work with you if you have thoughts of your own ! If your willing to let anyone have more than 50% of your logs then I have some swamp land for sale , lol !


Listen to this^^^^^


No matter how much money you make, always eat good🐠
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458447
02/11/19 08:00 PM
02/11/19 08:00 PM
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Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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Why would he owe SS tax on a lumber sale? Just asking.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458449
02/11/19 08:00 PM
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Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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Why would he owe SS tax on a lumber sale? Just asking.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458467
02/11/19 08:11 PM
02/11/19 08:11 PM
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ny
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upstateNY Offline
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sounds like a hose job.Worth more than that as firewood.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: pcr2] #6458473
02/11/19 08:14 PM
02/11/19 08:14 PM
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idaho falls idaho
trapr Offline
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idaho falls idaho
Originally Posted by pcr2
disclaimer [Linked Image]

you need to set down and have a long talk with someone who knows how to use one of those for real, it is not swung like an axe and used as a striking instrument. grin

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: charles] #6458488
02/11/19 08:26 PM
02/11/19 08:26 PM
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Duluth, MN
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Clark Offline
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Duluth, MN
Originally Posted by charles
Why would he owe SS tax on a lumber sale? Just asking.


If he did it right, which very few landowners do, he could pay zero in taxes on this timber sale. Now, he would have had to have the timber appraised by a forester and then set up a timber basis for his property which costs money but the potential savings in taxes can be significant. Timber, if cut after more than one year of owning the land, is taxed as a capital gain which is 15%. If you sell $20K worth of timber (not difficult to do) youíll owe $3K in taxes, which is less than most appraisals.

Clark


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458489
02/11/19 08:27 PM
02/11/19 08:27 PM
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lumberjack391 Offline
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It would out perform any stihl, even in that condition

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458495
02/11/19 08:29 PM
02/11/19 08:29 PM
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eastern WV
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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white oak prices are up now , if all he's cutting is white oak, get an idea on the price in board ft.
RR

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458579
02/11/19 09:44 PM
02/11/19 09:44 PM
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OR
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Brady wayne Offline
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I would clear cut it. I.am a timber faller and have worked in the woods my entire working career. Clear cut it and replant it. Makes great feed for deer and elk bears you name it. I would do 60/40. Just go In off.my experiences. That way you profit the most and have a fresh healthy forest starting over.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458716
02/11/19 11:37 PM
02/11/19 11:37 PM
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Va
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pass-thru Offline
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What was the purpose of the forestry guy if everything is being left up to the logger? If he has a million $ equipment, why will it take him 4-5 weeks to cut 20-24 loads? How will he pay for his equipment the other 4 weeks?

I had a client a few years ago that got taken at least 50-100K by a smooth talking logger. Deal on a handshake, good Christian logger.

I'm glad you brought this up here, but this really is about the last place you should be relying on to make these kinds of decisions.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458757
02/12/19 01:26 AM
02/12/19 01:26 AM
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central Missouri
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Bigfoot Offline
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Foresters are just as coruptible as loggers. After all the whole premise for their existance is that all loggers are thieves.,but they need loggers to harvest the timber they sell or nobody makes money . Just remember a forester needs relation ship with loggers he can work with .more than he needs a single landowner that he might deal with every ten to twenty years .there are good foresters and good loggers educate yourself and talk to as many people as you can

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: Bigfoot] #6458784
02/12/19 05:10 AM
02/12/19 05:10 AM
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SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Bigfoot
Foresters are just as coruptible as loggers. After all the whole premise for their existance is that all loggers are thieves.,


not true, at all. (well, except that there are bad foresters, as well).

the reasons to hire a forester include his/her expertise in managing your forest for present and future productivity.

if you make a mistake in forestry, you and your kids and grandchildren will pay for it.

and yes, your forester will protect the landowner's interests (financial, tax considerations and condition of the land following the harvest) with a good, solid contract.

do your homework on your forester, too; and hire a GOOD one....you'll be glad you did.

Last edited by white marlin; 02/12/19 05:12 AM.

"We didn't come all the way out here just to 'feel them on the line.' "
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458787
02/12/19 05:39 AM
02/12/19 05:39 AM
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VA
coolbrze Offline
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As an arborist, I would hire a forestry consultant to put it out for bid w/ multiple logging companies. I can tell you this... they are in the process of harvesting 250 acres near us and have left total devastation. There are many options for harvesting, certain trees w/ a minimum DBH, etc. Make sure you have a written contract in hand outlying what is to be cut & what isn't. Back to my 1st recommendation - you pay a forestry consultant to protect you & watch over the operations so that neither party gets screwed. That's their job & I can guarantee they're better at it than either you or me.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458813
02/12/19 06:47 AM
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lumberjack391 Offline
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Loggers cant make money cutting cull trees and leaving genetically superior seed trees, and most landowners are looking for the most money and don't give 2 licks about future production.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458859
02/12/19 07:53 AM
02/12/19 07:53 AM
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TENNESSEE
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lgtrapn Offline
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TENNESSEE
If you talked to ten different foresters, you would likely get ten different harvest plans. Everyone has an opinion on how timber harvest should be done, but in the end it comes down to what the land owner wants. You should make sure both your forester and your logger know what you are manageing towards, and make sure they are capable of meeting you requirements. I am a 4th generation logger, and we seldom have to go through a foresters or sign contracts. We are know locally for being honest and working with land owner to achieve his or her goals. But if you are not comfortable dealing with loggers directly then a "good and knowledgeable" forester is certainly the way to go. My biggest piece of advise would be not to take advise from "foresters" online. No one can know what your woodlot needs without walking through it, with you preferably. And to the rest of you guys that apparently got took by your logger I must apologise, they're are many crooks in this industry, loggers and foresters alike. Perhaps more homework was required.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458872
02/12/19 08:08 AM
02/12/19 08:08 AM
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PA
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gryhkl Offline
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Have you had your timber scaled to see how much is on your land?
Have it scaled by a professional and put it out for bid.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458943
02/12/19 09:03 AM
02/12/19 09:03 AM
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B61-12 vicinity, MO
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TreedaBlackdog Offline
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B61-12 vicinity, MO
You don't have to hire anyone - call your local MDC office and ask for the forester. Tell him what you would like to do and what your goals are. Here in Missouri we have an excellent system with MDC and the forestry division. They will mark up your timber according to your plans and stocking rates and then advertise and you can get multiple bids if you so choose. Also - you can apply for a forestry management plan through USDA/NRCS and you will get funded for the plan. You then can select a TSP to write up the plan for you and get your rates at what you are stocked at and how many board feet you can remove. Don't listen to some of these folks that say I'd never cut a nut tree. An over stocked nut tree is still that - overstocked and your woodland will never be as productive as possible. Forests are to be managed and that includes timber harvest and sales. Walnut is at a premium now and white oak is high and also preferred over reds/blacks and hickories. There is a decent stave market close to you for white oak.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458955
02/12/19 09:10 AM
02/12/19 09:10 AM
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New York
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Fire Fly Guy Offline
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Hire a Timber consultant. Around here they come in, mark the trees to be cut, figure out the board feet, managage the process and require a bond for property damage and put the logs out to bid............ before they are cut, so you know exactly whats coming to you. They do this for 10%.

When we had ours logged, the bids were from $15,000 to $66,000 thousand. pretty big price swing........... and we had our money in escrow before a tree was ever touched.


.
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458966
02/12/19 09:17 AM
02/12/19 09:17 AM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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and he may see something you wont.i'm starting to cut 50 acres across from my house owned by the mill.they wanted me to cut all the ash but when they marked the lines,the forester has found something is killin the white oak there also so they want everyone of them cut also.i noticed some dead when hunting but forester says not a healthy one on the hill.big and plentiful so it'd been a large loss for them if not cut.


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458968
02/12/19 09:17 AM
02/12/19 09:17 AM
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MN
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160user Offline
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I have had logging done on my place twice so far and the third time isn't that far off. I wanted my property managed for deer and grouse habitat so the cuttings have been small clear cuts to promote a diversity of age class timber. It has worked great and I have NO regrets at all. I got a few extra bucks but most of the timber stumpage was used for heavy equipment work and clearing food plots and trails. Any fruit tree or tree that produced a mast crop like oak was left. Those seed trees have really helped promote growth of new oaks and apples for the critters. Some small areas of low dollar timber were simply slashed and left for bedding areas. To me logging has far more benefits than it does drawbacks.


I have nothing clever to put here.





Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458970
02/12/19 09:18 AM
02/12/19 09:18 AM
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Henry Co, IL
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3togo Offline
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Henry Co, IL
Statement: There are no veener logs.

If the trees grew close together and have very few, if any branches due to all competing for light and growing straight up you MAY have veneer logs in some of those trees. Can't tell until the tree is cut. Sometimes mineral inclusions will cause a down grade in a log.
I'd be looking at the basic theme here and check with the state forestry service, and get at least 3 bids.
Also, equipment was mentioned. Some of the newer skidders will be low impact if not used in muddy situations. If anyone has a dozer with a winch set up for logging it will not leave ruts like some skidders.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: 160user] #6458973
02/12/19 09:20 AM
02/12/19 09:20 AM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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Originally Posted by 160user
I have had logging done on my place twice so far and the third time isn't that far off. I wanted my property managed for deer and grouse habitat so the cuttings have been small clear cuts to promote a diversity of age class timber. It has worked great and I have NO regrets at all. I got a few extra bucks but most of the timber stumpage was used for heavy equipment work and clearing food plots and trails. Any fruit tree or tree that produced a mast crop like oak was left. Those seed trees have really helped promote growth of new oaks and apples for the critters. Some small areas of low dollar timber were simply slashed and left for bedding areas. To me logging has far more benefits than it does drawbacks.

hats off to ya,same here and i even get to manage my neighbors properties and get paid for it.

Last edited by pcr2; 02/12/19 09:21 AM.

quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6458992
02/12/19 09:38 AM
02/12/19 09:38 AM
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Wright Brothers Offline
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Any such thing as a market for knotty white fir?

edt I found the answer, zero per mbf lol.

Last edited by Wright Brothers; 02/12/19 10:51 AM.




Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: Bigfoot] #6459015
02/12/19 09:58 AM
02/12/19 09:58 AM
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kentucky
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logger coffey Offline
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kentucky
Originally Posted by Bigfoot
Foresters are just as coruptible as loggers. After all the whole premise for their existance is that all loggers are thieves.,but they need loggers to harvest the timber they sell or nobody makes money . Just remember a forester needs relation ship with loggers he can work with .more than he needs a single landowner that he might deal with every ten to twenty years .there are good foresters and good loggers educate yourself and talk to as many people as you can
you got that right , around here the are getting paid under the table from big mills not to submit bids and such . people around here finally saw this after a old lady got the screws after a big bid deal , supposed to have been advertised but wasint ,sawmill got some cheap timber and the forester made a bundle.

Last edited by logger coffey; 02/12/19 10:02 AM.
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6459037
02/12/19 10:32 AM
02/12/19 10:32 AM
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Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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[url=https://timbertax.org/research/revenuerulings/capitalgain/][/url]

I've been digging thru the nite looking for qualifying capital gains. Most of the sites I found dont have any dates, a couple was from 1996. I dont know about this one.

But this seems to be the jest of all of them:
You forsure have to own it atleast 12 months.

When "cut"
For purposes of determining capital gain or loss, timber is considered "cut" at the time when in the ordinary course of business the quantity of timber felled is first definitely determined, rather than at the time of the felling. Treas. Reg. §1.631-1. (Sec. 631).

If anyone wants to take a stab at interpreting the above about " when cut " for capital gains please do so.
I have an idea, but besides being as ignorant as a hog on ice, I still have stuff from over 30 yrs. in my head.
After getting a forester, a good tax man might be your next best money maker.
I distinctly remember in order to get capital gains the decision had to be made at time of sale and not after you go to your tax guy next year.
If you screw up and dont get the capital gains then you will have to pay a higher tax rate plus self employment(social security} because it will be ordinary income. If you bought the land you may be able to put a value on the timber and count that as cost against your gain on the trees, but then that might come off of what you paid for the land which you need records so if you sell the land your cost is less than the amount you took off for the trees. My best advice is a tax man that actually knows what he is doing ?

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6459063
02/12/19 10:51 AM
02/12/19 10:51 AM
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kentucky
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logger coffey Offline
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In all honesty to the original poster ,none of use are there and we cant see your timber so it would be hard to tell you the correct thing to do. . you might be getting a good deal or might not . some say they have good timber but sometimes its junk , some have told me they did not have any timber then i looked and it was nice stuff . hope you the best.

Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: H5Farm] #6459151
02/12/19 12:13 PM
02/12/19 12:13 PM
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potter co. p.a.
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pcr2 Offline
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guy told me he had 20 acres of ash that needed cut-not a local-was some nice poplar when i got there.


quality over quantity

Hickory Garden Farms
Re: Logging 60/40 split or $700 a truck load??? [Re: logger coffey] #6459176
02/12/19 12:38 PM
02/12/19 12:38 PM
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upstateNY Offline
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Originally Posted by logger coffey
In all honesty to the original poster ,none of use are there and we cant see your timber so it would be hard to tell you the correct thing to do. . .

Very true,however the price he quoted I could get twice that just selling it as firewood in my area.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
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