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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6514624
04/10/19 11:13 AM
04/10/19 11:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
If my neighbor's russians are any indicator I'd imagine the woods around have long ago been repopulated with russian genetics.
This time of year she sends about three texts a week saying swarm headed your way. LOL


Last edited by warrior; 04/10/19 11:15 AM.

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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6514640
04/10/19 11:33 AM
04/10/19 11:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 706
Michigan
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BigBlackBirds Offline
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BigBlackBirds  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 706
Michigan
Are the Webb's still keeping russians down there? Havent had any contact with them in very long time

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: Timber Hole] #6514651
04/10/19 11:41 AM
04/10/19 11:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 19
Harrisburg / Wheelerville, PA
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Dustyroads Offline
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Dustyroads  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 19
Harrisburg / Wheelerville, PA
I will second the oxylic acid. Vapor or dribble. I began using the vapor last year with good success.

On another note, our club relayed some information at a meeting last spring about packages which are supposedly treated, but still hold mites. Some of the numbers of mites found in a package were well above treatment levels. Bottom line, you do not know if you have mites in a package unless you sugar roll or alcohol wash. What I took from this is that I do not care how many mites are in that package. There is no harm in treating.

I prefer vaporized oxylic acid. treating a package after it's been in there for a day or two could possibly be the absolute best time to get the highest efficacy out of a treatment. The spring they're not tightly clustered, numbers are low & there is zero brood.

Side by side tests last year showed that the swarm I got in late may had more mites during the same test days. The treatments (Formic) were more effective also on the treated package later in the year as their numbers were lower too. I battled mites all year in that swarm hive. I wouldn't have had this issue if I would have treated it when it was broodless, for reasons I couldn't control, I didn't treat it for a few weeks, by then it was a bit too late. That swarm hive kicked the bucket this year, the treated package made it and was split last weekend.

Small sample? Sure. But no doubt to the high efficacy of treating a broodless package. Knock out the mites & keep their numbers low all year rather than fight an infestation in august.

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6514667
04/10/19 11:55 AM
04/10/19 11:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,946
South metro, MN
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Calvin Offline
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Calvin  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,946
South metro, MN
Agreed Dusty. I too hit the swarms with oxalic acid vapors before they start laying. No reason not to do that with a package as well. Get ahead of them from the get go...instead of trying to make up ground later.

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: BigBlackBirds] #6514706
04/10/19 12:44 PM
04/10/19 12:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Posts: 25,424
Georgia
Originally Posted by BigBlackBirds
Are the Webb's still keeping russians down there? Havent had any contact with them in very long time


Yep, Carl and Virginia are still raising russians and she's still winning honey shows.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6514717
04/10/19 12:56 PM
04/10/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,154
Tug Hill, NY
Redknot Offline
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Redknot  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,154
Tug Hill, NY
Calvin, I agree about the walk away splits...I have very good luck with adding hives this way...I just pick out some really good frames and let my girls queen. It puts that hive back a few weeks, but I have a good location and by the end of the season those hives look really good..


~Illegitimi Non Carborundum~
Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540579
05/19/19 08:18 PM
05/19/19 08:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 712
Southern Il.
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Bowwhitetail Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 712
Southern Il.
I am new to bee keeping. I got two swarms off my neighbor a couple of weeks ago. My question is are mites and hive beetles the same thing?

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540603
05/19/19 08:41 PM
05/19/19 08:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
No

Varroa mites are tick like parasites that feed on the fat bodies, vitagellin, of bees in both the larval and young adult stage. This stresses the bees during early development plus viruses are spread via the feeding behavior. A double whammy and number one killer of bee colonies.

Small Hive Beetle is a small ladybug sized black beetle. It is a kleptoparasite (thief/scavenger) of honey bee colonies. While it can aggressively take over a colony it is a minor pest if the colonies are otherwise healthy and strong.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540613
05/19/19 08:46 PM
05/19/19 08:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 712
Southern Il.
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Bowwhitetail Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Southern Il.
Warrior thanks for clearing that up for me. Will the same treatment work for mites as well as beetles?

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540653
05/19/19 09:35 PM
05/19/19 09:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,136
B61-12 vicinity, MO
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TreedaBlackdog Offline
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TreedaBlackdog  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,136
B61-12 vicinity, MO
25 Minnesota Hygienic queens soon to be introduced here. Anyone utilize them? I read quite a bit on them before deciding to try them out.

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540683
05/19/19 10:15 PM
05/19/19 10:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
No, though one mite product is labeled for both however method of use is different enough that it's not dual purpose.

Best defense against SHB is strong colonies, full sun hive placement, strong colonies, no empty space inside the hive, strong colonies, judicious use of beetle traps/bottom boards if needed and strong colonies. Other novelties that can be used outside the hive is dry sandy ground, nematodes or permethrin (gardstar) treatment of the soil though these only come into play after the damage is done when the beetle larva go to ground to pupate. I like chickens under and around my hives for this.
Strong colonies is best because the bees will herd and corral the beetles keeping them confined. This is why empty space is bad since you need bees available to guard every square inch of space. Beetles are a minor problem with good management without good management you will grow to despise these little black demons. They can literally destroy a colony overnight. They do so by laying eggs in the comb and the rapidly hatching and growing larvae burrow through eating pollen, honey, wax and bee larvae while spreading yeasts that ferment everything. The beetle larvae also secrete slime that the bees will avoid. Very quickly the mess drives the bees off the comb and out the door, an abscond.

Best defense against mites is knowing your mite count and all bees have mites. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Oh and your best defense against everything else is the very thing that will give you lots of mites. Mites reproduce inside the capped cells of bee larvae so strong colonies making lots of bee larvae are making lots of mites. To the tune of two or more mites per bee produced. A foundress (reproductive female) mite entees larval cell prior to capping, once capped she cuts into the larva to feed then lays a fertilized egg that will develop into a female then a second then a third unfertilized egg that will develop into a male. This male will mate with the two females. This is on worker brood, on drone brood a fourth fertilized egg will be laid for three females. Hence mites prefer drone brood. Also more than one foundress can occupy a single cell, recent research shows this to be their mechanism to avoid inbreeding. Upon bee emergence the females emerge and latch onto young bees less than three days old for another meal, the male dies. A female can repeat this process three or more times in her lifetime.
I hope you can see how the mite population grows exponentially while the bee population is growing linear. This leads to severe issues as the bee population naturally reduces going into winter. Increasingly bee larvae will be parasitized by ever larger numbers of mites. And this doesn't even take into account the dozen or so viruses the bee will carry for the rest of its shortened life.
Hence mite management is the number one issue facing beekeepers. So learn how to do a proper mite count. Forget drop counts and sticky boards. The most accurate is going to be an alcohol wash though other solvents such as washer fluid or ether can be used. The method is to collect a half cup or approximately 300 young bees (most likely to have mites on them) from the core of the brood nest (most likely area to find young bees) then pour alcohol into a container with these bees. Shake to dislodge the mites then pour off the alcohol through a filter (paper coffee filters) and count the mites dislodged (it may take washing the sample several times to dislodge all mites). Divide the total number of mites by three as mite counts are expressed in mites per 100 bees. Current methodology and research suggests that 3 or more mites per hundred is the threshold for treatment. I treat at two.

As for treatment options we have many.

Hard chemicals/synthetic pesticides
Apistan (first generation mites quickly developed resistance)
Checkmite (harder on bees also resistance developed also registered for SHB)
Apivar (gentle on bees some reports of resistance but not yet documented known misuse of generic or homebred versions)

All of the above can not be used while honey supers are on (honey being produced) and can accumulate in the wax.

Soft, Essential Oil, Organic Acid (synthesized from naturally occurring)

Apiguard (thymol in a gel form)
Apilife Var (thymol in tablet form)
Hopguard (beta oil extracts from hops)
MAQS and MAQS PRO (formic acid in pad form)
Oxalic Acid (applied in sugar syrup drench or sublimation)

All the above except MAQS cannot be applied while honey supers are on.
Also none of the above except MAQS will treat the mites within the capped cells so require treatment over time in the form of time release strips (apistan, checkmite, apivar) or repeat application at timed intervals (apiguard, apilife, hopguard, oxalic) to ensure treatment of mites as they emerge.

Formic/MAQS is the only product that will penetrate to kill mites in the cell and can be used with supers on. However it also has issues being temperature sensitive (the reason for the pro refomulation) that can be rough on the bees and is known to incite queen supercedure.

For me formic has a fairly narrow window that I can safely use it but so far it's been the most effective with apivar being the other. Since resistance may develop with repeated use of a single product I rotate between MAQS early spring during buildup, Apiguard for all swarms and new/non production colonies, and Apivar post flow/summer if mit counts indicate. Then a fall cleanup to prepare for winter, MAQS if weather allows, if not Apiguard if Apivar was used. I won't use Apivar more than once per year and would like to eliminate it's use but it's effectiveness keeps it in my arsenal. I may try Apistan as it's been out of common use long enough that resistance isn't the issue it once was. It worked as advertised early on with one treatment per year (30 years ago) but we learned a hard lesson as the mites adapted. We now do two or three treatments a year and rotate to avoid resistance.
I will be adding Oxalic to the mix once I spring for one of the oxavap units ($400) as the spoons are to time consuming to be practical.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540686
05/19/19 10:19 PM
05/19/19 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
Tip on the MAQS. According to the label it has a fairly short shelf life. That temperature thing cropping up and should be stored below 70°F. It off gasses easily. Well straight from a company rep, the colder it's stored the less offgas. Keep it in the freezer. Oh and buy fresh product from a high volume dealer that has fresh product.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: TreedaBlackdog] #6540689
05/19/19 10:21 PM
05/19/19 10:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,971
Oklahoma
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Matt28 Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Oklahoma
Originally Posted by TreedaBlackdog
25 Minnesota Hygienic queens soon to be introduced here. Anyone utilize them? I read quite a bit on them before deciding to try them out.

I tried 3 out last year still have one and a daughter of another. Like them very calm and good brood producer's.

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: TreedaBlackdog] #6540692
05/19/19 10:23 PM
05/19/19 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
Originally Posted by TreedaBlackdog
25 Minnesota Hygienic queens soon to be introduced here. Anyone utilize them? I read quite a bit on them before deciding to try them out.


I've ran them. Good queens, I was impressed with them but unfortunately the hygienic traits are based on genetic recessives and daughter queens aren't so hygienic unless you raise them in drone saturated areas with hygienic traits. I later confirmed that with Dr Spivak herself.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540702
05/19/19 10:30 PM
05/19/19 10:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
Minnesota Hygienics got a bad rap in some circles because of this. When they were first introduced many producers bought breeders and sold open mated daughters leaving a bad taste in some folks mouths. If I were to get this stock again I'd search out one of the few producers that Dr Spivak handed off her stock to when the university got out of it.


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Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6540749
05/20/19 12:26 AM
05/20/19 12:26 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 208
Hillman mi. Northern Lower Eas...
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rivercabin53 Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 208
Hillman mi. Northern Lower Eas...
great post thanks

Re: Bee Keeping [Re: nramemb] #6544547
05/26/19 10:10 PM
05/26/19 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,162
KY
ksp107 Offline
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ksp107  Offline
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Posts: 1,162
KY
I am in my 7th year of beekeeping and self taught. In that time, I've lost 2 hives and have NEVER treated my bees with any type of chemical. Granted, I don't have a lot of hives (10) but I have people asking me all the time what I'm doing and why my losses are so low. Some of my fellow beekeepers call me the "bee whisperer" poking fun at me because I seem to have a natural talent at successfully overwintering bees. There are lots of resources out there, lots of opinions, and lots of experts... Let your bees teach you is the best advice I can give...

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