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Comparing rattlesnake venom #6540880
05/20/19 09:37 AM
05/20/19 09:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,912
Idaho Falls, ID
G
Grandpa Trapper Offline OP
trapper
Grandpa Trapper  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,912
Idaho Falls, ID
Snake experts. Which rattlesnakes have the most lethal bites. Western rattlesnake or the eastern timber rattlesnake? The western diamondback rattlesnake vs. the eastern diamondback rattlesnake. Or in each case, are they about the same?

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6540903
05/20/19 10:17 AM
05/20/19 10:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,666
Idaho, Lemhi County
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Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"
Gulo  Offline
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Idaho, Lemhi County
Grandpa -

I can't answer your specific question. I've been working with rattlesnakes in Idaho for over 40 years, and still catch, measure, and release a couple hundred of them every year. All rattlesnakes have more than 1 type of toxin in their venom. Of the two major classes of toxins, neurotoxins are prevalent in most elaphids while hemotoxins are more prevalent in viperids (rattlesnakes). There are exceptions, however. Also, every species of rattlesnake probably has 100 or more different toxins in their venom, potentially leading to a whole host of problems in a bite victim.

With all that said, I do remember hearing many years ago that in Idaho, the northern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) has more potent venom than the prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis). In Idaho, the prairie rattlesnake is only found in Lemhi and Custer Counties, while the pacific rattlesnake is the species that is found in the rest of the state (so your Idaho Falls snakes are Crotalus oreganus). Too, I remember that young snakes have much more potent venom than adults, but, of course, the volume is reduced. Gets pretty complicated.

In my old age, I no longer have the reaction reflexes that I once had, so I no longer catch (by hand) the larger Idaho rattlers. They are simply too strong for me to handle and I worry about losing hold of the head. In thousands of hand-captures (I don't use a snake stick due to injury to the snake), I've only been bit once. That experience was not overly pleasant.

Jack


Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6540966
05/20/19 01:17 PM
05/20/19 01:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,459
Montana
Taximan Offline
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Taximan  Offline
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Montana
No expert but the Eastern Diamondback is considered by most to be the most dangerous of our rattlers.The venom is similar in potency to the Western but the Eastern delivers 400-700 mg,whereas the Western delivers 200-300 mg and 100 mg can be fatal to humans.Many more bites are caused by the Westwer,as it is more widely distributed.

I believe the Timber is more potent,has longer fangs and probably delivers a little more than the Prairie rattler.These days,they have lumped so many species under Western Rattler that it gets confusing and venom strength varies among what used to be subspecies.Jack already mentioned the Norther Pacific but the Southern Pacific also produces a dangerous bite and that varies in parts of it's range.

The Mojave is known for it's large percentage of Neurotoxins and can produce complicated symptoms that don't show themselves for awhile.

I find it best not to get bitten by any of them.An ounce of prevention......

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541022
05/20/19 03:30 PM
05/20/19 03:30 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,101
Northern Michigan
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J.Morse Offline
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Northern Michigan
I agree with Taximan....an ounce of prevention is worth several bushels of antivenin!


Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: J.Morse] #6541078
05/20/19 05:50 PM
05/20/19 05:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,140
Texas Hill Country
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Cedar Hacker Offline
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Texas Hill Country
I certainly would not want to fall down while I was in with these Western Diamond Backs.


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Sit on your horse on top of a ridge, look out across the country and tell me there is no God.

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541092
05/20/19 06:06 PM
05/20/19 06:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,751
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Law Dog  Offline
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Central, SD
Ouch!

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Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541095
05/20/19 06:11 PM
05/20/19 06:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,160
uniontown pa
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gutthooked Offline
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uniontown pa
I wouldn't want to get bit by any rattler. One bit from any of them can kill you...


Don't limit your challenges
Challenge your limits
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541103
05/20/19 06:22 PM
05/20/19 06:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,263
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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Posts: 45,263
james bay frontierOnt.
Slice that hand and suck out the juice,like John Wayne.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541271
05/20/19 10:28 PM
05/20/19 10:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,630
Virginia
5
52Carl Offline
trapper
52Carl  Offline
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5

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 7,630
Virginia
My ounce of prevention is stored in a plastic tube crimped on one end, with metal on the other end and is filed with #8 lead.

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Gulo] #6541302
05/20/19 11:05 PM
05/20/19 11:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,440
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"
Sharon  Offline
"American Honey"

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,440
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Originally Posted by Gulo
Grandpa -

I can't answer your specific question. I've been working with rattlesnakes in Idaho for over 40 years, and still catch, measure, and release a couple hundred of them every year. All rattlesnakes have more than 1 type of toxin in their venom. Of the two major classes of toxins, neurotoxins are prevalent in most elaphids while hemotoxins are more prevalent in viperids (rattlesnakes). There are exceptions, however. Also, every species of rattlesnake probably has 100 or more different toxins in their venom, potentially leading to a whole host of problems in a bite victim.

With all that said, I do remember hearing many years ago that in Idaho, the northern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) has more potent venom than the prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis). In Idaho, the prairie rattlesnake is only found in Lemhi and Custer Counties, while the pacific rattlesnake is the species that is found in the rest of the state (so your Idaho Falls snakes are Crotalus oreganus). Too, I remember that young snakes have much more potent venom than adults, but, of course, the volume is reduced. Gets pretty complicated.

In my old age, I no longer have the reaction reflexes that I once had, so I no longer catch (by hand) the larger Idaho rattlers. They are simply too strong for me to handle and I worry about losing hold of the head. In thousands of hand-captures (I don't use a snake stick due to injury to the snake), I've only been bit once. That experience was not overly pleasant.

Jack




So interesting , Jack....I have to say Im relieved that I haven't needed to be so on guard in the years here in the northwest as I was in Florida.

All I want to find is a rubber Boa around here to be happy about ! smile

But thank you for taking the time to explain the amazing details of your studies. I had no idea it is so multi layered and complex.

Makes total sense, though.

On the surface.....

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541308
05/20/19 11:37 PM
05/20/19 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Posts: 25,425
Georgia
Another variable is that toxicity and composition can be highly variable within different populations of the same species. Recent research has shown that timbers in the southern states, particularly Georgia, have more virulent and neurotoxic components to their venom than timbers in more northern areas.


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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541343
05/21/19 05:15 AM
05/21/19 05:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,575
N. Carolina
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Scout1 Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,575
N. Carolina
One thing you experts may be able to answer for some of us woodsmen/women. If your out in the wild, say an hour from your truck, you get bit by a rattler, what's the best course of action? I'm sure it's not to kill the nearest doe deer, extract its liver, cut X's on the bite, suck the venom out, and apply the raw liver. Just always hear different remedies.


-------------------------------------
DJT & MTG in 2024!
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541382
05/21/19 08:33 AM
05/21/19 08:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
Seek medical help immediately. No cutting, sucking or touniquets. Keep the victim calm, immobilize the bite if possible and held at the level of the heart, no ice/heat. The idea is to not excite the victim or raise the heart rate.
DO NOT attempt to kill/collect the snake or bring it for ID. Secondary bites can occur and ID is not required for treatment. There is one antivenin to treat all north american pit vipers and one for corals.


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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541386
05/21/19 08:36 AM
05/21/19 08:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
call ahead to the emergency room so they can get antivenom headed that direction. very few places keep anti venom on hand


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541389
05/21/19 08:50 AM
05/21/19 08:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
P.S. lots of people are scared to death of snakes whether they will admit it or not. if a black snake bites them they are in panic mode. or any other snake. many many non veneomous snakes will bite if you accidently put your hand on them or something. many many people can't tell a timber rattler from a garter snake. a venomous snake bite will leave two clear punctures in the skin. a bite from a black snake for example can cause some very minor bleeding but it will be from multiple holes.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: danny clifton] #6541400
05/21/19 09:06 AM
05/21/19 09:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
Originally Posted by danny clifton
P.S. lots of people are scared to death of snakes whether they will admit it or not. if a black snake bites them they are in panic mode. or any other snake. many many non veneomous snakes will bite if you accidently put your hand on them or something. many many people can't tell a timber rattler from a garter snake. a venomous snake bite will leave two clear punctures in the skin. a bite from a black snake for example can cause some very minor bleeding but it will be from multiple holes.


This is one reason why medical protocols for snake bite stress observation prior to treatment.


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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541424
05/21/19 09:41 AM
05/21/19 09:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,227
wantage n.j.
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eric space Offline
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wantage n.j.
All rattlesnakes have the same potency venom, bigger the snake the more venom it has to inject you with(and longer, larger opening fangs to do it with). On this basis the eastern diamondback gets the biggest, therefore would be considered the most dangerous.

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: eric space] #6541570
05/21/19 02:03 PM
05/21/19 02:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,459
Montana
Taximan Offline
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Taximan  Offline
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Montana
Actually,potency varies widely among species and even between individuals within species.It can even vary day to day in one individual rattlesnake.

Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Taximan] #6541584
05/21/19 02:38 PM
05/21/19 02:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by Taximan
Actually,potency varies widely among species and even between individuals within species.It can even vary day to day in one individual rattlesnake.


More reason why observation is needed. While any individual bite may vary from "dry" to life threatening, adverse reactions to antivenin are known, older versions were notorious for it. Many milder envenomations like copperheads may not require antivenin at all. Though other medications and supportive therapy almost always are.


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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #6541585
05/21/19 02:41 PM
05/21/19 02:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,101
South Ga - Almost Florida
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Swamp Wolf Offline
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South Ga - Almost Florida
A big eastern dback has the capability of injecting nearly an OUNCE of venom during a bite. If that happens you can likely kiss your arse goodbye.


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