Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6546280
05/29/19 11:01 PM
05/29/19 11:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,533 Green County Wisconsin
GREENCOUNTYPETE
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I think this comes from some internet statement that the FN-FAL should have been the 7.62 nato gun that the US adopted.
maybe or maybe not is the FN-FAL a easier to produce more modular gun yes but we had no difficulty manufacturing plenty of M14s
is the FAL a good rifle sure it has it's place
that doesn't make the M14 a bad rifle both can be good rifles , this idea that for one to be good the other must suck is childish nonsense.
as I understand it they compared very similar in performance to each other but the M14 did better in arctic trials , since at the time we were concerned with our cold war advisory the USSR cold weather conflict was a concern . when 2 rifles test very close it is often an outer limit that sets them apart.
having never met anyone who disliked the M14 they carried in service , It certainly was a very good rifle. seeing many of them still competing in high power competition and doing very well It certainly still is a good rifle.
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6546512
05/30/19 11:40 AM
05/30/19 11:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Hobbs
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I'm by no means and expert and personally I love the rifles in the Garand platform family, but I would hazard a guess that it came down to cost. I would bet the M-16 was a cheaper rifle to produce and the ammo was cheaper. I've never served (thank you to all that have) but it seems that a lot of military choices come down to price (at least that's the way my brother explains it). However, there must be something about the Stoner platform that has some benefits, most of the fanboy rifle and cartridges die out unless they have something that is actually an improvement (I. E. the Super Short Mag craze).
It's a trappers life for me
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6546544
05/30/19 12:43 PM
05/30/19 12:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,533 Green County Wisconsin
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30-06 M2 ball 150gr .308 bullet at 2750fps vs 308/7.62x51 149gr M80 ball 2735 fps
the difference seems insignificant , 10% more rounds for the same weight with such similar performance approximately a 1 inch difference in drop at 500 yards
30-06 could have been loaded hotter it has the case volume for it but the op rod in the M1 couldn't take it so it was brought down to the 2750 fps level.
as to the m16A1 , I have to wonder had only the original tested powder been used , only the original un-lacquered ammo and a proper cleaning kit been issued with every rifle and the rifles been cleaned in the same frequency as the m14 if the story wouldn't be very different today.
really this holds true for any weapons platform , clean regular and use only the ammunition that meets or exceeds the original reliability testing.
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: white17]
#6546561
05/30/19 01:25 PM
05/30/19 01:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,582 sometimes PA sometimes ME
ebsurveyor
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Never saw a cleaning kit for a 16 "white17" you are testing my memory. In 1969 they took our 14's and gave us new in the box 16's. I think I remember a cleaning kit in the box.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: white17]
#6546601
05/30/19 03:28 PM
05/30/19 03:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,835 MN
160user
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Never saw a cleaning kit for a 16 I think they were designed to be discarded after the magazine was empty. Same concept as the Bell-47's...……..when the fuel cell ran dry find a replacement.
I have nothing clever to put here.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: white17]
#6546613
05/30/19 04:11 PM
05/30/19 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
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LOL!!!!!!!!! Been there done that !! Do I need to post your picture of you sitting in that pile of scrap iron? "The Bell 47 has just enough shaft horsepower to get you to the scene of the crash!"
I have nothing clever to put here.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: white17]
#6546617
05/30/19 04:22 PM
05/30/19 04:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,533 Green County Wisconsin
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Never saw a cleaning kit for a 16 there in lies the problem it should have looked something like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LVXGE4U/?tag=thegunzone-20but could have been even smaller with just a pulll throu the AR15/M16 really is an easy to work on gun you can completely build one with a small tool bag of tools including barrel change. imagine how many lives could have been saved with a cleaning kit and the same basic maintenance you were already taught.
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6546622
05/30/19 04:27 PM
05/30/19 04:27 PM
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MsgRet
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MsgRet
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Basic training in the Army 1964- qualified with the M14. Excellent weapon.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: white17]
#6546625
05/30/19 04:36 PM
05/30/19 04:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,533 Green County Wisconsin
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Well I never saw a box either. Ours were all well used by the time we got them in mid 1966. For that matter there was no cleaning gear for M60's either. Tooth brush and avgas. A piece of monofilament with a piece of rag for a patch. Lots of malfunctions on the 16 but the 60 would run pretty well if you kept the carbon scraped off the gas plug/piston. No parts either. spend billions on training , medical , ships , planes , and other equipment then render the most essential tools useless wanting for a few dollars of cleaning supplies and spare parts.
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6546741
05/30/19 08:49 PM
05/30/19 08:49 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,898 michigan,USA
seniortrap
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A lot of it was how "cheap" can we get by!
Put those politicians out there and its a different story.
Last edited by seniortrap; 05/30/19 08:49 PM.
Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers
"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction." "After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6547240
05/31/19 06:06 PM
05/31/19 06:06 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,898 michigan,USA
seniortrap
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The day the military is taken completely in consideration will be the day we "kick butt"!
A high school friend told me that when 00 buckshot goes on sale, he buys a pallet at a time.
His thoughts are be prepared instead of caught short.
Last edited by seniortrap; 05/31/19 06:08 PM.
Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers
"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction." "After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
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Re: The M14 was a terrible design!?!
[Re: seniortrap]
#6547272
05/31/19 07:52 PM
05/31/19 07:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,872 Central, SD
Law Dog
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The History Channel had a segment on Eugene Stoner and the AR-15 (M16) it's had a lot of info on the start and changes the military made to it that causes a lot of the issues it had at the beginning.
Powder changes were made from the one it was designed to use, cleaning kit were not issued at first as the cleaner burning powder was thought to not foul much, the powder they ended up using was not as clean.
The original ARs were chrome lined the "Wiz Kids" in DC changed that to save money and the bullets would stick in the chambers in wet conditions.
A good show if you ever get a chance check it out on the Tales of the gun series!
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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