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Why are pagans so critical of others? #6553310
06/11/19 11:51 AM
06/11/19 11:51 AM
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When,

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6 ASV


Do they worry themselves over what other sheep are doing or not doing?

Yet,

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:18-22 ESV


Because,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1-2 ASV


And,

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Genesis 1:1-4 NIV


He said,

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:11 NIV


So either He is a liar or,

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”
John 11:25-27 NIV


Because He is,

I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 ASV


And one day will ask each of us,

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Matthew 16:15 NIV


Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553345
06/11/19 12:46 PM
06/11/19 12:46 PM
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Just because one is not a Christian does not mean they are pagans. There are millions in the world with other belief systems.

Bryce

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553352
06/11/19 12:59 PM
06/11/19 12:59 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Warrior,

Ever go to the cupboard hungry but nothing in there is what you really want? lol


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553355
06/11/19 01:01 PM
06/11/19 01:01 PM
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Good grief.


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: bblwi] #6553364
06/11/19 01:18 PM
06/11/19 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bblwi
Just because one is not a Christian does not mean they are pagans. There are millions in the world with other belief systems.

Bryce


There are many definitions of pagan not all of them pejorative. In this case, not of the judeo/christian faith.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553366
06/11/19 01:19 PM
06/11/19 01:19 PM
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On a Boat in SC
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I think Catch22 sums it up nicely laugh

Are you that bored Warrior ????


At My Age Everything Comes with a lifetime Guarantee
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553379
06/11/19 01:45 PM
06/11/19 01:45 PM
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Lets get some real perspective. There are around 7.53 billion people in the world. Around 2.4 billion of those people are Christian. 1.3 billion of those Christians are Catholics, who have one leader and a unified religion, going back to Jesus Christ and his very first apostles. The rest of the 40,000 plus Christian religions are relatively new to very new off shoots of Catholicism. The new Christian religions believe that the members of the other 40,000 some Christian religions and 6.43 billion non-Christians are wrong and are probably going to suffer eternal torment, for not believing as they do.

In my opinion, any all powerful God, who feels the need to be worshiped, but who can't get his message across to most people clearly enough to impress them into following him, who will then punish them for it, is a many expletives.

I think any decent God would just want you to treat others as you would like to be treated, within reason.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6553403
06/11/19 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
Lets get some real perspective. There are around 7.53 billion people in the world. Around 2.4 billion of those people are Christian. 1.3 billion of those Christians are Catholics, who have one leader and a unified religion, going back to Jesus Christ and his very first apostles. The rest of the 40,000 plus Christian religions are relatively new to very new off shoots of Catholicism. The new Christian religions believe that the members of the other 40,000 some Christian religions and 6.43 billion non-Christians are wrong and are probably going to suffer eternal torment, for not believing as they do.

In my opinion, any all powerful God, who feels the need to be worshiped, but who can't get his message across to most people clearly enough to impress them into following him, who will then punish them for it, is a many expletives.

I think any decent God would just want you to treat others as you would like to be treated, within reason.

Keith

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the seat of judgment to judge God.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553404
06/11/19 02:42 PM
06/11/19 02:42 PM
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Pagan's and those who are into Wicca are some of the most open minded compassionate people I have ever met.
They are also very close to nature, and understand how everything in nature exists for a reason and that all is there for us to use - but not exploit.

There's a woman in town who has a Wiccan shop, I went in there to get some candles, as I was kind of curious about this shop - and the first thing I saw was a real nice coyote head that was mounted and on display with some other interesting old artifacts.

I ended up staying there for well over an hour where we were both discussing the importance of mankind's role in ensuring that the wildlife numbers remain in balance, and when I told her I was a trapper, she had no problem with that at all, and in fact spoke about the beauty of real fur, how special it is, and how fur can never be taken for granted.

*now, I was raised a Christian, and had a pretty good understanding of both the New and Old Testament when I was in school.
I even went to church for many years, but then once I was older, I stopped.

why ??
because I started to see things differently, and more importantly I started to experience things on my own - and saw that those who were preaching the loudest were not true to Gods word at all.

Tell me Warrior, have you ever spent time with any Pagans or Wiccans ??
I for one would rather spend time with Pagans over Born Again Christians because the Pagans are not fanatical, they are as close to a back to nature type of folk that one can get.

*also, don't think I'm not a follower of Gods Word, quite the contrary - I'm just on a path that is leading more towards Judaism today...

I'm sorry if I have an open mind, but I am not sorry for having Pagan and followers of Wicca as friends....


Last edited by Big George W; 06/11/19 02:44 PM. Reason: make it read easier

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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6553410
06/11/19 02:48 PM
06/11/19 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by KeithC
Lets get some real perspective. There are around 7.53 billion people in the world. Around 2.4 billion of those people are Christian. 1.3 billion of those Christians are Catholics, who have one leader and a unified religion, going back to Jesus Christ and his very first apostles. The rest of the 40,000 plus Christian religions are relatively new to very new off shoots of Catholicism. The new Christian religions believe that the members of the other 40,000 some Christian religions and 6.43 billion non-Christians are wrong and are probably going to suffer eternal torment, for not believing as they do.

In my opinion, any all powerful God, who feels the need to be worshiped, but who can't get his message across to most people clearly enough to impress them into following him, who will then punish them for it, is a many expletives.

I think any decent God would just want you to treat others as you would like to be treated, within reason.

Keith

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the seat of judgment to judge God.


I sure am. I don't know the truth about God and believe that nobody else does either. I do believe that God is good, because most of his creations are good.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553414
06/11/19 03:02 PM
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Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553418
06/11/19 03:06 PM
06/11/19 03:06 PM
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The Truth is there if one seeks it

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6553422
06/11/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of imagined persecution from Christians?


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6553430
06/11/19 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of imagined persecution from Christians?




You deny the history you dislike... thats cute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perse...ire#After_the_fall_of_the_Western_Empire

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/christian-atrocities-three-centuries-of-pagan-persecution/

I'll leave you with this nice story of Christian persecution that has a happy ending.


the year is 724, Saint Boniface was sent out to convert pagans to Christianity, with him came a armed guard (of course). The pagans met and worshiped their gods under a large beautiful Oak (Thors Oak), knowing the symbolism and meaning this Oak had St Boniface chopped the Oak down with a axe and built a church were it once had stood.
Years later on another mission to convert Pagans this time without a large armed guard, pagans who had undoubtedly heard of St Boniface previous disregard for their sacred Oak ambushed St Boniface and put a axe through his head.
See, happy ending.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553432
06/11/19 03:29 PM
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Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 06/11/19 03:29 PM.

"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553433
06/11/19 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of imagined persecution from Christians?



I think the millions of people killed by Christians, for not being Christian, are pretty good proof that the persecution by Christians was not imagined.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553437
06/11/19 03:32 PM
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I'm certain plenty of Gremans and Japanese were killed by Christians.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553439
06/11/19 03:36 PM
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So who's worse, so called Christians killing in the name of religion or Muslims killing in the name of religion?

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553446
06/11/19 03:49 PM
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Never was one for religion or the arguments around both sides. Live and let live. Closest I could come to seeing eye to eye with is a native american spirituality. Soon as someone starts quoting writings, I'm out.


-- It seems all of Greece knows what is the right thing to do, but it is only the Spartans that do anything about it. --
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6553456
06/11/19 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.


The lighthouse dudes clearly did not get that memo then. They peddle their version of christianity from door to door. Can anyone please let them know they are doing it wrong and stop that nonsense.


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553459
06/11/19 04:12 PM
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I just wish the boss would put religion and preaching on the forum in the same category as politics.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6553461
06/11/19 04:18 PM
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Religion has been one of the major reasons for war throughout history and continues to be today. It is used to justify killing people, it is used to control and influence the masses by religious and political leaders. It has also become one of the biggest con jobs in history! The truth is it is for to easy to take advantage of people that have little else in their life to believe in. We all need something to believe in and hope for in our lives and it is easier for us to be told what we should believe than it is for us to find our own path and what is right or wrong. I doubt that any god would be happy with the results of religion in today's world.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Scuba1] #6553471
06/11/19 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.


The lighthouse dudes clearly did not get that memo then. They peddle their version of christianity from door to door. Can anyone please let them know they are doing it wrong and stop that nonsense.

You mean the Johavah's witness? They are a cult, not Christian. Anyways, they don't covert anyone to their cult either, you have to choose to believe in it. If you refuse them, they don't knock down your door and force you into it.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6553473
06/11/19 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC


I sure am. I don't know the truth about God and believe that nobody else does either. I do believe that God is good, because most of his creations are good.

Keith

And what would a good God expect of people? You already said the whole point was to treat everyone as you want to be treated, which is good and is something Jesus said, but he didn't stop there. He claimed to be the only way to God. And none of us treat each other perfectly, so we all fail, even in that, so perhaps we do need saving.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6553477
06/11/19 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

Pretty neat that you are the official spokesman for Christianity.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6553489
06/11/19 04:55 PM
06/11/19 04:55 PM
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EdP is right on. Political threads are axed which I think is a good thing but religion is a personal thing for many of us. Of course we can choose to not open a thread but these religious debates seem to be more frequent lately.

Just my two cents. Maybe a religion forum for those who wish to debate/discuss?

Pete

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553502
06/11/19 05:20 PM
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Here's they way I see it.
If you want to know why I'm a Christian and believe they way I do - I'll tell you.
But you need to ask. I don't cover my faith up, but don't force a conversation either.
Arguing about a belief system is like arguing about a political party. All it really does is alienate people from each other.

I'm a Christian because Christ became real to me when I mustered up the faith to believe in Him. I'm not talking about a church - I'm talking about Bible based Christianity - not a bunch or rituals and repetitions. I attend a very small church in the country. We are actively involved in each others lives and if somebody needs something - they get it. We have 3 widowers who've lost their husbands and the church supports them. We take an offering - not a tithe.
Since then I have found compassion and peace in my life that I never enjoyed before.
You can't just decide one day you're going to become a follower of Christ. God has to draw you - but He does not draw on your heart forever.
There are too many churches being run by boards with "so called" Christians and it has given the cause of Christ a bad name.
They see themselves as being "somebody", much like the Pharisees of the Old Covenant, when all they really are is lost, playing church and wallowing in their own self righteousness and importance.
I've watched people as they age and here's the analysis: You can either let life with all the troubles it brings pound on you until you're numb - and argue about politics, evolution, religion, etc., - or you can live it.

As people they get older either get bitter or they get better.
To each his own - I'll take better.


Shawnee National Forest - We live out here because we're not all there.
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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: ShawneeMan] #6553527
06/11/19 06:08 PM
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Why don't we leave it up to Paul to decide if he would like another forum or to take a vote to axe religion the same as we do politics, but then what would of us old men have to argue about.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6553538
06/11/19 06:33 PM
06/11/19 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

Pretty neat that you are the official spokesman for Christianity.


Glad I could help.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553542
06/11/19 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

Pretty neat that you are the official spokesman for Christianity.


Christ said it first.

” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

And as far as those killing in the name of religion....


John 16:2 . 2They will put you out of the synagogues. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.


It's funny really. Mankind ignores the Old Testament until the want to wage "Holy Crusade". Then they ignore the New Testament so they can presume it's justifiable to kill on God's behalf.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553565
06/11/19 07:24 PM
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I think it is just human nature to denigrate those who think differently than you do whether its religion or politics.


ban gun free zones
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: danny clifton] #6553588
06/11/19 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
I think it is just human nature to denigrate those who think differently than you do whether its religion or politics.


There's no problem thinking differently. It's when we start speaking and writing that's the problem. lol


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553622
06/11/19 09:13 PM
06/11/19 09:13 PM
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laugh


At My Age Everything Comes with a lifetime Guarantee
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553625
06/11/19 09:17 PM
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North East Kansas
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Pagans are people too....97.5% of people are similar.


High Speed/Low Drag...grin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: SUMROW] #6553723
06/12/19 12:43 AM
06/12/19 12:43 AM
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Valdosta, GA
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Originally Posted by SUMROW
Religion has been one of the major reasons for war throughout history and continues to be today. It is used to justify killing people, it is used to control and influence the masses by religious and political leaders. It has also become one of the biggest con jobs in history! The truth is it is for to easy to take advantage of people that have little else in their life to believe in. We all need something to believe in and hope for in our lives and it is easier for us to be told what we should believe than it is for us to find our own path and what is right or wrong. I doubt that any god would be happy with the results of religion in today's world.


SPILL THAT TEA


Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Big George W] #6553725
06/12/19 12:46 AM
06/12/19 12:46 AM
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Valdosta, GA
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Originally Posted by Big George W
Pagan's and those who are into Wicca are some of the most open minded compassionate people I have ever met.
They are also very close to nature, and understand how everything in nature exists for a reason and that all is there for us to use - but not exploit.

There's a woman in town who has a Wiccan shop, I went in there to get some candles, as I was kind of curious about this shop - and the first thing I saw was a real nice coyote head that was mounted and on display with some other interesting old artifacts.

I ended up staying there for well over an hour where we were both discussing the importance of mankind's role in ensuring that the wildlife numbers remain in balance, and when I told her I was a trapper, she had no problem with that at all, and in fact spoke about the beauty of real fur, how special it is, and how fur can never be taken for granted.

*now, I was raised a Christian, and had a pretty good understanding of both the New and Old Testament when I was in school.
I even went to church for many years, but then once I was older, I stopped.

why ??
because I started to see things differently, and more importantly I started to experience things on my own - and saw that those who were preaching the loudest were not true to Gods word at all.

Tell me Warrior, have you ever spent time with any Pagans or Wiccans ??
I for one would rather spend time with Pagans over Born Again Christians because the Pagans are not fanatical, they are as close to a back to nature type of folk that one can get.

*also, don't think I'm not a follower of Gods Word, quite the contrary - I'm just on a path that is leading more towards Judaism today...

I'm sorry if I have an open mind, but I am not sorry for having Pagan and followers of Wicca as friends....




The closer to nature we become, the better we know ourselves.. That's why we're all here.. isn't it?


Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553728
06/12/19 12:54 AM
06/12/19 12:54 AM
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CT
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Yup... at least with me anyway.


Respect,
Big George Waters + Loki the Dog.....
East Derby CT
CTA [life member], NTA, FTA, FBU
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6553732
06/12/19 01:17 AM
06/12/19 01:17 AM
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Champaign County, Ohio.
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by KeithC


I sure am. I don't know the truth about God and believe that nobody else does either. I do believe that God is good, because most of his creations are good.

Keith

And what would a good God expect of people? You already said the whole point was to treat everyone as you want to be treated, which is good and is something Jesus said, but he didn't stop there. He claimed to be the only way to God. And none of us treat each other perfectly, so we all fail, even in that, so perhaps we do need saving.



Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: zoozoo400] #6553769
06/12/19 05:56 AM
06/12/19 05:56 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted by zoozoo400
The closer to nature we become, the better we know ourselves.. That's why we're all here.. isn't it?


Could be but I would think there would be none weak among us.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6553773
06/12/19 05:59 AM
06/12/19 05:59 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted by KeithC

Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith


"Short periods of time", I must not be a Christian because my God's desire is for me to act Holy all the time.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: swift4me] #6553775
06/12/19 06:09 AM
06/12/19 06:09 AM
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orange co, nc
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Originally Posted by swift4me
EdP is right on. Political threads are axed which I think is a good thing but religion is a personal thing for many of us. Of course we can choose to not open a thread but these religious debates seem to be more frequent lately.

Just my two cents. Maybe a religion forum for those who wish to debate/discuss?

Pete

Agreed

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553794
06/12/19 06:51 AM
06/12/19 06:51 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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There is a reason everyone can't help themselves from opening these threads.

"Sometimes it ain't all about us." lol


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553836
06/12/19 08:00 AM
06/12/19 08:00 AM
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SWMo.
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tjm Offline
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Quote
cult
[kəlt]
NOUN

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.


if looked at objectively all religions are cults.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Pike River] #6553837
06/12/19 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Pike River
So who's worse, so called Christians killing in the name of religion or Muslims killing in the name of religion?

They worship the same Hebrew God.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6553872
06/12/19 08:53 AM
06/12/19 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by KeithC






Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith


But you aren't God, so how can you know what he wants? You can't, unless it's revealed to you, you are just another sinful person like the rest of us. Acting holy for a short period of time, yeah that would be pointless. But that isn't what church is about. It's about thanking the one who is holy for everything he is and does. Again, have you always treated everyone perfectly? If not, you need to seek forgiveness.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: tjm] #6553922
06/12/19 09:53 AM
06/12/19 09:53 AM
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Georgia
warrior Offline OP
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Originally Posted by tjm
Originally Posted by Pike River
So who's worse, so called Christians killing in the name of religion or Muslims killing in the name of religion?

They worship the same Hebrew God.


They do not. Allah is an ancient bedouin moon god morphed into the story of mohammed. Some initial followers of mohammed included members of a Jewish community in Mecca, hence the linkage to Jehovah.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553946
06/12/19 10:39 AM
06/12/19 10:39 AM
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La Crosse, WI
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Guess I've never been around enough Pagans to under stand this post??? Got a daughter raised Catholic decide wanted to be a Wiccan I'm ok with that some other family is not..
I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...Don't want to bake a cake, can't have my Christmas decorations in some public place. Can't hang my 10 commands in city hall, don't like the people next doors life style..They comb their hair to the wrong side..think their Wiccans, maybe even lesbians heaven forbid???
Yet here where I live I think there are??? if I count ?? right?? 6 for sure maybe more churches within half mile of my house?? All claiming some form of being Christian..I occasionally get junk mail being a neighbor, to come see what they have to offer me in life.. One of them few blocks from here one of the pastors I know. He conceal carries or open carries all time. Think mostly open carry while preaching at the pulpit in the church... least he be attacked by some none believer he can defend himself and congregation...I'm told every service has some armed guards. I don't know who is after that group of Christians, never ask him?? don't know don't care.. I got cat people hate on me to worry about..
Lot of people need learn just MTOB.. be lot less grief for everyone..

Mac


"Never Forget Which Way Is Up"

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553957
06/12/19 11:06 AM
06/12/19 11:06 AM
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WI
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Jerks aren't unique to just one flavor


I'm a Politically Incorrect American
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: SUMROW] #6553969
06/12/19 11:34 AM
06/12/19 11:34 AM
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Shenandoah County, VA
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Originally Posted by SUMROW
, but then what would of us old men have to argue about.


i guarantee, we'd find something to argue about - it is the internet after all


Josh
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6553975
06/12/19 11:40 AM
06/12/19 11:40 AM
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Was raised in a very strict church growing up. Refuse to go back now that I'm old enough to see it for what it was and make my own decisions in life. Like has been stated before "our church is the only right church and everybody else better not be buried in a sweater cause it's hot where they're going!" I find it hard to get on board when you tell me I have to live a certain way because "this book says so", but when I ask for supporting literature to back up that books legitimacy they give me more examples out of the same book! You can't back up a statement from a book with other statements from the same book and expect everyone to just accept it as truth. As far as beliefs I believe that I'd rather be in the woods thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about the woods.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6554040
06/12/19 01:45 PM
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Champaign County, Ohio.
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by KeithC






Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith


But you aren't God, so how can you know what he wants? You can't, unless it's revealed to you, you are just another sinful person like the rest of us. Acting holy for a short period of time, yeah that would be pointless. But that isn't what church is about. It's about thanking the one who is holy for everything he is and does. Again, have you always treated everyone perfectly? If not, you need to seek forgiveness.


I am definitely not God and I am definitely not perfect. I guess like everyone else what the true nature of God is. Creation overall is good, so I would guess God is good.

I pray every night and other times too. Part of my prayers are the "Our Father" and "Holy Mary". I try to be thankful while praying too and ask for help to be a better person.

Whether God agrees or not, if we all treat others well, be appreciative of what we have, work for what we need and try to be the best human being we can, things will be better for all of us.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554060
06/12/19 02:06 PM
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East-Central Wisconsin
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Many believe in a God that is way, way too small. God is way too inclusive for many who choose to use region to divide and demean.

Bryce

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554080
06/12/19 02:42 PM
06/12/19 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
[quote=PAskinner][quote=KeithC]





Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith

But you aren't God, so how can you know what he wants? You can't, unless it's revealed to you, you are just another sinful person like the rest of us. Acting holy for a short period of time, yeah that would be pointless. But that isn't what church is about. It's about thanking the one who is holy for everything he is and does. Again, have you always treated everyone perfectly? If not, you need to seek forgiveness.

I am definitely not God and I am definitely not perfect. I guess like everyone else what the true nature of God is. Creation overall is good, so I would guess God is good.

I pray every night and other times too. Part of my prayers are the "Our Father" and "Holy Mary". I try to be thankful while praying too and ask for help to be a better person.

Whether God agrees or not, if we all treat others well, be appreciative of what we have, work for what we need and try to be the best human being we can, things will be better for all of us.

Keith

Sure they will. But being a nice person doesn't save anyone.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Scuba1] #6554110
06/12/19 03:45 PM
06/12/19 03:45 PM
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MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Originally Posted by Scuba1
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.


The lighthouse dudes clearly did not get that memo then. They peddle their version of christianity from door to door. Can anyone please let them know they are doing it wrong and stop that nonsense.


The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6554111
06/12/19 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Sure they will. But being a nice person doesn't save anyone.


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554115
06/12/19 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.


Thinking like this is why there are 40,000 some versions of Christianity, most who dislike each other, except when they face a common enemy and need each other.

Thinking like this is also what turns most of us off from organized religion. I don't want to have to hate somebody over something that no one really knows about or can agree upon.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554124
06/12/19 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by Trapper7
The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.


Thinking like this is why there are 40,000 some versions of Christianity, most who dislike each other, except when they face a common enemy and need each other.

Thinking like this is also what turns most of us off from organized religion. I don't want to have to hate somebody over something that no one really knows about or can agree upon.

Keith


We have faced a common enemy and the Watchtower Society wasn't there because they don't believe in war. They are conscientious objectors. They have always reaped the good from the perils of war without ever having suffered any of it's consequences.

Most Christian religions pretty much agree on the basics of Christianity. They disagree on some minor points such as baptism, communion, etc. If you think that causes contempt, you are mistaken. I may disagree with some of their doctrines, but I figure we're still in the same game, just a different team.

I am a Christian. I have friends who probably aren't, but that's God's problem. He has to judge them, not me. But, I certainly don't hate them.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Trapper7] #6554125
06/12/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Trapper7


The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.

Don't most professed Christians follow that guy Paul that pretty much started his own church way back when?

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: bblwi] #6554127
06/12/19 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bblwi
Many believe in a God that is way, way too small. God is way too inclusive for many who choose to use region to divide and demean.

Bryce

Possibly the best post you every made, Bryce.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554135
06/12/19 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by warrior
Originally Posted by tjm

They worship the same Hebrew God.


They do not. Allah is an ancient bedouin moon god morphed into the story of mohammed. Some initial followers of mohammed included members of a Jewish community in Mecca, hence the linkage to Jehovah.

A lot of Arabic speaking Catholics and Orthodox Christians would argue with you. Allah is like Dios or Deu, or Dieu, or Gud, or Dia, or Bog, or Gott- it is just God's name in a language you don't speak, read or understand.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554141
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Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by PAskinner
Sure they will. But being a nice person doesn't save anyone.


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith

And that is your choice...


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554204
06/12/19 05:55 PM
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Exactly!

People should not hate each other for their differing religious beliefs, unless that religion makes them bad people in a consequential manner. Small differences are small.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6554208
06/12/19 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?


Of course it's convenient to forget all the Christians fed to lions, burned, crucified, killed for sport, etc... by the pagan Romans.

Nobody permanently retains the title of persecutor or persecuted.

Mike


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Mike in A-town] #6554218
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?


Of course it's convenient to forget all the Christians fed to lions, burned, crucified, killed for sport, etc... by the pagan Romans.

Nobody permanently retains the title of persecutor or persecuted.

Mike



Who forgot? Christian persecution of Pagans is also much more recent with longer lasting consequences. Warrior also made the thread then never replied... ultimate troll thread.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554226
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I threw that out there because I had an acquaintance that was a practitioner of Wicca... And their standby rant was about Christians persecuting pagans... Had a belly full one day and asked her about Nero dipping Christians in tar and setting them ablaze to light his garden parties.

Of course the answer was that was different... Or it happened a long time ago... Etc...

I've never witnessed a witch being burned, or drowned, or pressed to death. So the "longer lasting consequences" is kind of a puzzle to me.

As far as Warrior posting the thread. He did it to make a point.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Mike in A-town] #6554230
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town


I've never witnessed a witch being burned, or drowned, or pressed to death. So the "longer lasting consequences" is kind of a puzzle to me.

.

Mike


Most of the Pagan writings were burned, temples tore down,relics destroyed, a huge part of history lost due to over zealous Christians killing pagans and destroying anything to do with non Christian religions.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554237
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You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554246
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Originally Posted by KeithC
You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith


I get what you're saying. The only form of Paganism I am interested in is Odinism/Druidism and those two took a hard hit from Christianity.

I am no expert on religion that is for sure.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554256
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I was referring to the multitude of earlier confused posters, who seem to think pagan is one organized religion, rather than just a catch all for hordes of disparate religious beliefs. What possible guilt does a Wiccan, whose religion is less than 100 years, have for persecution of Christians, by Nero, 1800 years ago, who was a member of a totally different Roman polytheistic religion, based on an Etruscan religion that is over 3000 years old?

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554263
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Originally Posted by KeithC
I was referring to the multitude of earlier confused posters, who seem to think pagan is one organized religion, rather than just a catch all for hordes of disparate religious beliefs. What possible guilt does a Wiccan, whose religion is less than 100 years, have for persecution of Christians, by Nero, 1800 years ago, who was a member of a totally different Roman polytheistic religion, based on an Etruscan religion that is over 3000 years old?

Keith


I am pretty oblivious on Wicca but I have heard they draw from Druidism quite a bit, not sure how true that is.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554282
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I have met and talked to a lot of Wiccans, mostly back in the late eighties, while I was in college and the early 2000s in the SCA. Surprisingly, a lot of the Wiccans I met had been in, or were active in the US Army. Most of the Wiccan beliefs were not organized until the 1960s and 1970s. Wiccans borrowed heavily from what they believed Druidism and the Norse religions were. The Wiccans I knew constantly added whatever they found interesting in popular culture, like dreamscaping, from the movie "Dreamscape" and rituals from TV shows like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel". They were all big on building altars and doing rituals. Every Wiccan I have ever met was a geek or nerd, in my opinion. They all were fairly bright and had little common sense. If you ever wanted to start a cult, most Wiccans would be easy people to recruit. Like Mormons, I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554306
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Originally Posted by KeithC
I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith


Ever married one? Marriage apparently changes people.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6554325
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by KeithC
I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith


Ever married one? Marriage apparently changes people.


I can believe that. I have nevery seriously dated, much less married a Wiccan woman. I did have a lot of fun with a beautiful, near perfectly built, red haired, Wiccan women, who was paying for her doctorate in Psychology, teaching college level psychology and belly dancing professionally, in a Middle Eastern restaurant 3 nights a week.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554330
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Don't forget - there are a number of different forms of Christianity.
Some are works, tradition and ritual based that "add to" the Bible.
One is Bible based - strictly on faith.


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554339
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There are 40,000 some thousand different Christian religions.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554346
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Originally Posted by KeithC


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith


Knowing how things will turn out does not equal causing them. If I know my kid will steal the cookies if I leave the room it still doesn't make me liable for his actions. In your scenario, there would be no real choices, only the illusion of choice. What would be good about a God who forced everyone to follow his will?
I bet you believe that actions should have consequences, if not, then what is evil anyway? If there are no ultimate consequences, then how does any action matter? An action can't be evil if it's not worthy of punishment. We know that evil exists, so the next question is why a good God would allow it? You might as well have said that God is not good, because that's the only way your logic makes sense.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6554379
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by KeithC


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith


Knowing how things will turn out does not equal causing them. If I know my kid will steal the cookies if I leave the room it still doesn't make me liable for his actions. In your scenario, there would be no real choices, only the illusion of choice. What would be good about a God who forced everyone to follow his will?
I bet you believe that actions should have consequences, if not, then what is evil anyway? If there are no ultimate consequences, then how does any action matter? An action can't be evil if it's not worthy of punishment. We know that evil exists, so the next question is why a good God would allow it? You might as well have said that God is not good, because that's the only way your logic makes sense.


I do believe that actions do and should have consequences. The incredibly huge difference is that unlike God, you don't know everything and did not make everything. You're responsibility level is infinitesimally less. Knowing and making everything makes God ultimately responsible for everything. He may give us free will, but he knows how everything will turn out. If God knows that you will make wrong decisions, knows that he will punish you eternally for making those decisions (over a relatively short period of time) and then creates you anyways, it seems very cruel to me.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554453
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Kinda like a big kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass Keith.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554471
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Originally Posted by Davisfur
Kinda like a big kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass Keith.


Yes, but I sure hope not.

I am always curious about almost everything. I kind of look forward to dying and finding out how things really are, but I don't know that I or anyone else will ever truly know. I just long to know.

My best guesses are that we do have souls, that we are made in God's image, that God is good, that God wants us to become more like him and that there is some form of reincarnation, but I know I am as likely wrong as everyone else. It's still interesting to speculate and to talk with others with different opinions.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554543
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Originally Posted by KeithC
You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith


Yes, I lumped Wicca in there amongst all the other "pagans"... If we're going to split hairs over terminology then we will be at this a while. For sake of brevity I gather all nature/animal/polytheistic worship and practice as pagan.

So in a nutshell any religion outside of the Abrahamic or Judeo/Christian belief system I would personally lump in as "pagan." If that has negative connotations that is not my intent. I also believe that some of the far Eastern beliefs fall more into philosophies than actual "religions" per se.

If you want to debate what constitutes pagan from the billion other religions and philosphies I am willing to listen to your viewpoints... Otherwise just keep my above explanation in mind when I lump religions together for the sake of expedience.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Macthediver] #6554547
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Originally Posted by Macthediver

I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...Don't want to bake a cake, can't have my Christmas decorations in some public place. Can't hang my 10 commands in city hall, don't like the people next doors life style..They comb their hair to the wrong side..think their Wiccans, maybe even lesbians heaven forbid???


Don't forget the "Happy Holidays" starbucks cups lol

Last edited by zoozoo400; 06/13/19 12:43 AM.

Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Macthediver] #6554563
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Originally Posted by Macthediver
Guess I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...


You live in a predominantly Christian country... Simple statistics dictate that all those hypocrites, whiners, and complainers will be Christians.

If you lived in Israel then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would likely be Jewish.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be Muslim.

If you lived in Washington DC then the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be politicians/government employees...

Are you smellin' what I'm steppin' in here?

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Mike in A-town] #6554570
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by Macthediver
Guess I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...


You live in a predominantly Christian country... Simple statistics dictate that all those hypocrites, whiners, and complainers will be Christians.

If you lived in Israel then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would likely be Jewish.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be Muslim.

If you lived in Washington DC then the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be politicians/government employees...

Are you smellin' what I'm steppin' in here?

Mike


That's a good point you got there


Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554582
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by Macthediver
Guess I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...


You live in a predominantly Christian country... Simple statistics dictate that all those hypocrites, whiners, and complainers will be Christians.

If you lived in Israel then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would likely be Jewish.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be Muslim.

If you lived in Washington DC then the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be politicians/government employees...

Are you smellin' what I'm steppin' in here?

Mike



It makes sense that most of the hypocrites, whiners and complainers, in a predominantly Christian country, like Mac stated, were Christians, but not statistically all, as you say they should be.

I am friends with and know mostly people who are Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians. They are all Christians, but they are not in your face about it. Most of those Christians were born into one of those particular religions and just go through the socially acceptable motions. You can know them for many years and never know their religion unless you asked. Most are probably pretty close to being agnostic.

The people who refer to themselves as "Christian", who irritate lots of people, in my experience, are usually Baptist or Church of God members. No offense please, I am sure there are good people in those religions. Most of the people in those two religions, who I have met, remind me of vegans in that like vegans, the way you find out they are "Christian" is they tell you about it and that's most of what they want to talk about, when you first meet them. Frequently the Baptists and Church of God people I have known switch which church they go to and which minister they like and listen to a couple of times a year or more. They often get overly animated and crazy looking eyes when talking about their beliefs. Most of them made very serious mistakes in their lives with drugs, alcohol, sex or crime and will happily and excitedly tell you how they are now changed thanks to Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior. I think they use religion as a mental crutch to get them through their lives, to alleviate the guilt they feel for their previous poor choices. I guess if it helps them be better people, it's for the best.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: tjm] #6554760
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Originally Posted by tjm
Originally Posted by Trapper7


The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.

Don't most professed Christians follow that guy Paul that pretty much started his own church way back when?


What guy Paul are you referring to? Paul of Tarsus?


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: tjm] #6554769
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Originally Posted by tjm
Originally Posted by Pike River
So who's worse, so called Christians killing in the name of religion or Muslims killing in the name of religion?

They worship the same Hebrew God.


Wrong! Hebrew God is Yahweh. Muslim god is Allah.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554772
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No T7, he was referring to Saul. grin


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554785
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Originally Posted by KeithC
[quote=PAskinner][quote=KeithC]

I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith




I do believe that actions do and should have consequences. The incredibly huge difference is that unlike God, you don't know everything and did not make everything. You're responsibility level is infinitesimally less. Knowing and making everything makes God ultimately responsible for everything. He may give us free will, but he knows how everything will turn out. If God knows that you will make wrong decisions, knows that he will punish you eternally for making those decisions (over a relatively short period of time) and then creates you anyways, it seems very cruel to me.

Keith

What is the alternative? If this is the best if all possible worlds, ( as theologians have suggested) then the only alternative is a world where free will doesn't exist. Again, how is God responsible for something he doesn't cause? Just because he has all power doesn't mean he forces us to do wrong.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554803
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Good point, Catch. He was actually Saul of Tarsus before he became Paul.

No where in the bible does it say Paul started a church. He was a soldier who prosecuted and killed followers of Jesus Christ until he went blind. According to Luke, Saul became Paul as a result of Christ's voice asking him why he was persecuting Christians? He became an evangelist as a result and regained his eyesight. His conversion was such a radical change and witness that it encouraged others to follow Paul.

There were differences even back then at the start of the movement. Paul wrote that there were divisions. Some felt it was of the utmost importance that followers be baptized. Some would only follow Paul, some would only follow Apollo, some Cephas. He writes, "Has Christ been divided up?" His point was all the nit picking was foolish because they were all on the same team.

Today, we have the same situation with many Christian churches. They have minor differences such as baptism, communion, etc. But, the basics are still there such as who Christ was being the biggest. Many of these non-Christian churches have written their own bible. Some deny that Jesus was the son of God. Some claim he was Michael the archangel. One even claims Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. There is nothing in the original teachings like that.


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Trapper7] #6554807
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
Good point, Catch. He was actually Saul of Tarsus before he became Paul.

No where in the bible does it say Paul started a church. He was a soldier who prosecuted and killed followers of Jesus Christ until he went blind. According to Luke, Saul became Paul as a result of Christ's voice asking him why he was persecuting Christians? He became an evangelist as a result and regained his eyesight. His conversion was such a radical change and witness that it encouraged others to follow Paul.

There were differences even back then at the start of the movement. Paul wrote that there were divisions. Some felt it was of the utmost importance that followers be baptized. Some would only follow Paul, some would only follow Apollo, some Cephas. He writes, "Has Christ been divided up?" His point was all the nit picking was foolish because they were all on the same team.

Today, we have the same situation with many Christian churches. They have minor differences such as baptism, communion, etc. But, the basics are still there such as who Christ was being the biggest. Many of these non-Christian churches have written their own bible. Some deny that Jesus was the son of God. Some claim he was Michael the archangel. One even claims Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. There is nothing in the original teachings like that.

Might want to dig some deeper on that as I don't think that's actually so. But I get your point though.


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554856
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Luke was a traveling companion of Paul's. He is considered the writer of the book of Acts. He wrote that Saul was on his way to Damascus when a light from heaven shown suddenly on him. He was blinded and he heard a voice saying, "Saul, why do you persecute me?"
He asked, "Who are you, Lord?"
And the voice said, "I am Jesus whom you persecute."
When Saul rose from the ground, he could see nothing.
In Damascus, a man called Ananias was told by the Lord to go to the house of Judas and enquire about a man named Saul. But, Ananias was fearful of Saul because of his reputation of killing Christians. He was made not to fear and when he laid hands on Saul, a film fell away from his eyes and he could see again.

I don't think I could dig much deeper than that. If that's what you're referring to.


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Trapper7] #6554865
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
Luke was a traveling companion of Paul's. He is considered the writer of the book of Acts. He wrote that Saul was on his way to Damascus when a light from heaven shown suddenly on him. He was blinded and he heard a voice saying, "Saul, why do you persecute me?"
He asked, "Who are you, Lord?"
And the voice said, "I am Jesus whom you persecute."
When Saul rose from the ground, he could see nothing.
In Damascus, a man called Ananias was told by the Lord to go to the house of Judas and enquire about a man named Saul. But, Ananias was fearful of Saul because of his reputation of killing Christians. He was made not to fear and when he laid hands on Saul, a film fell away from his eyes and he could see again.

I don't think I could dig much deeper than that. If that's what you're referring to.

Luke is considered the Author of Acts. However if you look to Acts, such as 9:17, 11:25, 11:30, 12:25 and so on, Paul was referred to as Saul by others and the Holy Spirit long after his conversion. Not to take away from the road to Damascus at all, but Saul became Paul ( theory)when Luke knew Paul was going out to preach to the Gentiles. Saul being Hebrew and Paul Greek. The passages though prove that the name change didn't come from Jesus.


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554885
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The point is that Saul traveled under an alias and did in fact start the church by his travels and letters. Almost all of the new testament relates to Saul and his teachings. Every church/religion on earth has had a human leader. It is wonderful that men today can say for sure that this man was right in his leadership and that man was wrong in his leadership. It is the major Christian pastime to stone other Christians.
I propose that if any of these leaders was right and true in his interpretation of God/Christ there would be no divisions in the Church. All denominations have perverted the Word to suit their agenda to some extent.

The other major Christian pastime is to deny God to any one that does not speak English. I note above some of God's names in other languages yet it is apparent that He can only be named in English, eh?

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554923
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Originally Posted by KeithC
The people who refer to themselves as "Christian", who irritate lots of people, in my experience, are usually Baptist or Church of God members. No offense please, I am sure there are good people in those religions. Most of the people in those two religions, who I have met, remind me of vegans in that like vegans, the way you find out they are "Christian" is they tell you about it and that's most of what they want to talk about, when you first meet them. Frequently the Baptists and Church of God people I have known switch which church they go to and which minister they like and listen to a couple of times a year or more. They often get overly animated and crazy looking eyes when talking about their beliefs. Most of them made very serious mistakes in their lives with drugs, alcohol, sex or crime and will happily and excitedly tell you how they are now changed thanks to Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior. I think they use religion as a mental crutch to get them through their lives, to alleviate the guilt they feel for their previous poor choices. I guess if it helps them be better people, it's for the best.

Keith


Well good grief, why didn't you say that to begin with. Lol

Probably not a person on this forum who hasn't had a similar experience. But when you start painting with a broad brush and lump everyone together people automatically assume you're referring to them...

Kinda like I did lumping all the pagans together. Lol

Mike


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Catch22] #6554947
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Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Trapper7
Luke was a traveling companion of Paul's. He is considered the writer of the book of Acts. He wrote that Saul was on his way to Damascus when a light from heaven shown suddenly on him. He was blinded and he heard a voice saying, "Saul, why do you persecute me?"
He asked, "Who are you, Lord?"
And the voice said, "I am Jesus whom you persecute."
When Saul rose from the ground, he could see nothing.
In Damascus, a man called Ananias was told by the Lord to go to the house of Judas and enquire about a man named Saul. But, Ananias was fearful of Saul because of his reputation of killing Christians. He was made not to fear and when he laid hands on Saul, a film fell away from his eyes and he could see again.

I don't think I could dig much deeper than that. If that's what you're referring to.

Luke is considered the Author of Acts. However if you look to Acts, such as 9:17, 11:25, 11:30, 12:25 and so on, Paul was referred to as Saul by others and the Holy Spirit long after his conversion. Not to take away from the road to Damascus at all, but Saul became Paul ( theory)when Luke knew Paul was going out to preach to the Gentiles. Saul being Hebrew and Paul Greek. The passages though prove that the name change didn't come from Jesus.


Exactly. I never meant that it was Jesus that told Saul to change his name to Paul because you are right, Jesus didn't. At least there's nothing written that says He did. I was referring to the fact that Saul became Paul sometime after his episode on the road to Damascus and his encounter with Christ. I agree (theory) Saul probably became Paul to become more compatible to fit in with the gentiles. Another possibility might be he was concerned about his former reputation preceding him.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: tjm] #6554963
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Originally Posted by tjm
The point is that Saul traveled under an alias and did in fact start the church by his travels and letters. Almost all of the new testament relates to Saul and his teachings. Every church/religion on earth has had a human leader. It is wonderful that men today can say for sure that this man was right in his leadership and that man was wrong in his leadership. It is the major Christian pastime to stone other Christians.
I propose that if any of these leaders was right and true in his interpretation of God/Christ there would be no divisions in the Church. All denominations have perverted the Word to suit their agenda to some extent.

The other major Christian pastime is to deny God to any one that does not speak English. I note above some of God's names in other languages yet it is apparent that He can only be named in English, eh?


Too bad you weren't around at the time of Paul. You could have explained to him he was wrong since he wrote about the divisions in the faith himself. Check out the first chapter of 1Corinthians. Based on what you've said, you must feel Paul falls into that category of not being right and true in his interpretation of God/Christ.

Baptizing believing adults, not babies. You would consider that perverting the Word? Or, consubstantiation versus transubstantiation, is that perverted?

Almost all of the NT relates to Paul and his teachings. You do realize the 4 gospels are part of the NT, right?

It's the MAJOR pastime for other Christians to stone other Christians. Really, they don't have anything else to do? In my area, each summer they have vacation bible school. Each year it's hosted by a different church, Catholic, Lutheran, and non-denominational. They work together. Though they have minor doctrinal differences, their goal is the same; teach the kids about Jesus and His love.

You prefer to bash Christians and say Christians say the only true God is the one named in English. I would assume that Allah worshipped by the Islamists aren't guilty as Christians even though they say Yahweh the Christian-Jewish god is a false god. These are the true Christian haters in some parts of the world. All we have to do is read about the Christians being persecuted and murdered around the world for their faith by Islamic extremists. Haven't heard about Christians murdering any Islamists, though.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554966
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Wow, never even thought about your last sentence, Paul not wanting to be Saul so people wouldn't freak out, great point! The Bible is a fascinating book, I enjoy it. And who said Christians and Pagans can't get along. grin


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Catch22] #6554970
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Originally Posted by Catch22
Wow, never even thought about your last sentence, Paul not wanting to be Saul so people wouldn't freak out, great point! The Bible is a fascinating book, I enjoy it. And who said Christians and Pagans can't get along. grin



grin


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6555026
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The early Catholic church adopted many pagan beliefs and used those beliefs/superstitions to convince people to persecute Christians,such as the Waldenses, who were trying to spread that the bible and the gospel were the authority, not the papacy. The early Catholic church actually burned bibles, and the people preaching from them, in an effort to remain in authority because the bible removed the papist authority.

Now I'm not bashing Catholics or pagans, just some interesting history I've read about.


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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6555035
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The new testament makes a guy wonder if a cult leader like say Jim Jones had instructed 4 or 5 of his closest disciples to write books about his life and times after he was gone, just what kind of stories they would have came up with and what sort of miracles they would have said he did.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Davisfur] #6555043
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Originally Posted by Davisfur
The new testament makes a guy wonder if a cult leader like say Jim Jones had instructed 4 or 5 of his closest disciples to write books about his life and times after he was gone, just what kind of stories they would have came up with and what sort of miracles they would have said he did.

Very plausible. Just like there are 3 or more stories very similar to Noah and the flood, that predate the Bible. That's what faith is all about, I reckon.


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6555116
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saul wanted to be paul cause he was another joesephsmithmohmedmosesjimjonesmartinlutheroralrobertsmaharishimaheshyogicharlestazerussellmennosimons kind of guy.


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