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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554141
06/12/19 04:33 PM
06/12/19 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by PAskinner
Sure they will. But being a nice person doesn't save anyone.


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith

And that is your choice...


Shawnee National Forest - We live out here because we're not all there.
http://www.ripcordassociation.com
101 Pathfinder Det / Vietnam 1969 - 1971
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554204
06/12/19 05:55 PM
06/12/19 05:55 PM
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Exactly!

People should not hate each other for their differing religious beliefs, unless that religion makes them bad people in a consequential manner. Small differences are small.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6554208
06/12/19 06:03 PM
06/12/19 06:03 PM
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?


Of course it's convenient to forget all the Christians fed to lions, burned, crucified, killed for sport, etc... by the pagan Romans.

Nobody permanently retains the title of persecutor or persecuted.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Mike in A-town] #6554218
06/12/19 06:20 PM
06/12/19 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?


Of course it's convenient to forget all the Christians fed to lions, burned, crucified, killed for sport, etc... by the pagan Romans.

Nobody permanently retains the title of persecutor or persecuted.

Mike



Who forgot? Christian persecution of Pagans is also much more recent with longer lasting consequences. Warrior also made the thread then never replied... ultimate troll thread.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554226
06/12/19 06:37 PM
06/12/19 06:37 PM
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I threw that out there because I had an acquaintance that was a practitioner of Wicca... And their standby rant was about Christians persecuting pagans... Had a belly full one day and asked her about Nero dipping Christians in tar and setting them ablaze to light his garden parties.

Of course the answer was that was different... Or it happened a long time ago... Etc...

I've never witnessed a witch being burned, or drowned, or pressed to death. So the "longer lasting consequences" is kind of a puzzle to me.

As far as Warrior posting the thread. He did it to make a point.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: Mike in A-town] #6554230
06/12/19 06:44 PM
06/12/19 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town


I've never witnessed a witch being burned, or drowned, or pressed to death. So the "longer lasting consequences" is kind of a puzzle to me.

.

Mike


Most of the Pagan writings were burned, temples tore down,relics destroyed, a huge part of history lost due to over zealous Christians killing pagans and destroying anything to do with non Christian religions.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554237
06/12/19 06:57 PM
06/12/19 06:57 PM
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You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554246
06/12/19 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith


I get what you're saying. The only form of Paganism I am interested in is Odinism/Druidism and those two took a hard hit from Christianity.

I am no expert on religion that is for sure.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554256
06/12/19 07:20 PM
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I was referring to the multitude of earlier confused posters, who seem to think pagan is one organized religion, rather than just a catch all for hordes of disparate religious beliefs. What possible guilt does a Wiccan, whose religion is less than 100 years, have for persecution of Christians, by Nero, 1800 years ago, who was a member of a totally different Roman polytheistic religion, based on an Etruscan religion that is over 3000 years old?

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554263
06/12/19 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
I was referring to the multitude of earlier confused posters, who seem to think pagan is one organized religion, rather than just a catch all for hordes of disparate religious beliefs. What possible guilt does a Wiccan, whose religion is less than 100 years, have for persecution of Christians, by Nero, 1800 years ago, who was a member of a totally different Roman polytheistic religion, based on an Etruscan religion that is over 3000 years old?

Keith


I am pretty oblivious on Wicca but I have heard they draw from Druidism quite a bit, not sure how true that is.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554282
06/12/19 08:06 PM
06/12/19 08:06 PM
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I have met and talked to a lot of Wiccans, mostly back in the late eighties, while I was in college and the early 2000s in the SCA. Surprisingly, a lot of the Wiccans I met had been in, or were active in the US Army. Most of the Wiccan beliefs were not organized until the 1960s and 1970s. Wiccans borrowed heavily from what they believed Druidism and the Norse religions were. The Wiccans I knew constantly added whatever they found interesting in popular culture, like dreamscaping, from the movie "Dreamscape" and rituals from TV shows like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel". They were all big on building altars and doing rituals. Every Wiccan I have ever met was a geek or nerd, in my opinion. They all were fairly bright and had little common sense. If you ever wanted to start a cult, most Wiccans would be easy people to recruit. Like Mormons, I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554306
06/12/19 08:50 PM
06/12/19 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith


Ever married one? Marriage apparently changes people.


-Goofy-
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6554325
06/12/19 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by KeithC
I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith


Ever married one? Marriage apparently changes people.


I can believe that. I have nevery seriously dated, much less married a Wiccan woman. I did have a lot of fun with a beautiful, near perfectly built, red haired, Wiccan women, who was paying for her doctorate in Psychology, teaching college level psychology and belly dancing professionally, in a Middle Eastern restaurant 3 nights a week.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554330
06/12/19 09:18 PM
06/12/19 09:18 PM
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Don't forget - there are a number of different forms of Christianity.
Some are works, tradition and ritual based that "add to" the Bible.
One is Bible based - strictly on faith.


Shawnee National Forest - We live out here because we're not all there.
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Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554339
06/12/19 09:27 PM
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There are 40,000 some thousand different Christian religions.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554346
06/12/19 09:30 PM
06/12/19 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithC


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith


Knowing how things will turn out does not equal causing them. If I know my kid will steal the cookies if I leave the room it still doesn't make me liable for his actions. In your scenario, there would be no real choices, only the illusion of choice. What would be good about a God who forced everyone to follow his will?
I bet you believe that actions should have consequences, if not, then what is evil anyway? If there are no ultimate consequences, then how does any action matter? An action can't be evil if it's not worthy of punishment. We know that evil exists, so the next question is why a good God would allow it? You might as well have said that God is not good, because that's the only way your logic makes sense.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: PAskinner] #6554379
06/12/19 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by KeithC


I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith


Knowing how things will turn out does not equal causing them. If I know my kid will steal the cookies if I leave the room it still doesn't make me liable for his actions. In your scenario, there would be no real choices, only the illusion of choice. What would be good about a God who forced everyone to follow his will?
I bet you believe that actions should have consequences, if not, then what is evil anyway? If there are no ultimate consequences, then how does any action matter? An action can't be evil if it's not worthy of punishment. We know that evil exists, so the next question is why a good God would allow it? You might as well have said that God is not good, because that's the only way your logic makes sense.


I do believe that actions do and should have consequences. The incredibly huge difference is that unlike God, you don't know everything and did not make everything. You're responsibility level is infinitesimally less. Knowing and making everything makes God ultimately responsible for everything. He may give us free will, but he knows how everything will turn out. If God knows that you will make wrong decisions, knows that he will punish you eternally for making those decisions (over a relatively short period of time) and then creates you anyways, it seems very cruel to me.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554453
06/12/19 10:31 PM
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Kinda like a big kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass Keith.

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: warrior] #6554471
06/12/19 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Davisfur
Kinda like a big kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass Keith.


Yes, but I sure hope not.

I am always curious about almost everything. I kind of look forward to dying and finding out how things really are, but I don't know that I or anyone else will ever truly know. I just long to know.

My best guesses are that we do have souls, that we are made in God's image, that God is good, that God wants us to become more like him and that there is some form of reincarnation, but I know I am as likely wrong as everyone else. It's still interesting to speculate and to talk with others with different opinions.

Keith

Re: Why are pagans so critical of others? [Re: KeithC] #6554543
06/13/19 12:00 AM
06/13/19 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith


Yes, I lumped Wicca in there amongst all the other "pagans"... If we're going to split hairs over terminology then we will be at this a while. For sake of brevity I gather all nature/animal/polytheistic worship and practice as pagan.

So in a nutshell any religion outside of the Abrahamic or Judeo/Christian belief system I would personally lump in as "pagan." If that has negative connotations that is not my intent. I also believe that some of the far Eastern beliefs fall more into philosophies than actual "religions" per se.

If you want to debate what constitutes pagan from the billion other religions and philosphies I am willing to listen to your viewpoints... Otherwise just keep my above explanation in mind when I lump religions together for the sake of expedience.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
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