No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers ***NO POLITICS
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting~The Pen and Quill

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum~ Fermenter's Forum


~~~ Dobbins' Products Catalog ~~~


Minnesota Trapline Products
Please support our sponsor for the Trappers Talk Page - Minnesota Trapline Products


Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
The Conflict of Church and State #6569817
07/08/19 06:28 AM
07/08/19 06:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Sunday’s service was about not taking an oath or “swearing.” Many scriptures were cited during the service. It was also great seeing one of our youth members visiting from her duty. She is a combat medic.

Anyway, the discussion after church was mostly about the Bible’s instruction not to take an oath and you can’t serve the country without taking one.

Thoughts?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 07/08/19 06:29 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569826
07/08/19 07:03 AM
07/08/19 07:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,120
Northern Minnesota
BernieB. Offline
trapper
BernieB.  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,120
Northern Minnesota
It's a principle not a law. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take an oath of office or put your hand on a Bible and swear to tell the whole truth. It's just a principle meaning to live in honesty.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569830
07/08/19 07:11 AM
07/08/19 07:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
So was the pastor wrong to state it is a sin to do so and improperly used the scriptures toward his claim?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 07/08/19 07:17 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569835
07/08/19 07:25 AM
07/08/19 07:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
trapper
Kart29  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
First, I question how the topic of taking an oath came up in the sermon. Does the pastor pick and choose topics for his sermons? Or has he been preaching through a book of the Bible and this topic just happened to come up in the text being studied? Did the preacher know the combat medic would be attending the service?

I do not see in the Bible where lawful oaths are prohibited and don't know what would be used as justification for preaching such a position. From Deuteronomy 10 "Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. 21 He is the one you praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes."

This link references the Westminster Confession of Faith section 22 which summarizes the Bible's teaching in vows and lists many scripture references as the source.
http://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/chapter-22/


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569836
07/08/19 07:30 AM
07/08/19 07:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Matthew 5:34


-Goofy-
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569838
07/08/19 07:35 AM
07/08/19 07:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 5,570
Dunbar, Wisconsin
P
Pike River Offline
trapper
Pike River  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 5,570
Dunbar, Wisconsin
The context of that is people are quick to "swear to God" I did or didn't do such and such. The devalue God's name by swearing on it flippantly.

I didn't hear your preacher's sermon but I'm pretty sure that's what Jesus was talking about during his sermon.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569845
07/08/19 07:56 AM
07/08/19 07:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
trapper
Kart29  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 5:34 doesn't take that verse to prohibit taking an oath when required by the civil magistrates.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Matt.5.33-Matt.5.37

Also see commentary from the Reformation Study Bible:
Quote
Matt 5:34

5:34 Do not take an oath. Some have understood Jesus’ prohibition of oaths to be universal, but Jesus Himself submitted to oath (26:63), and Paul invoked God as his witness in Rom. 1:9. God Himself takes an oath so that we might be encouraged (Heb. 6:17). Jesus is addressing a narrow and misleading legalism that required a specific oath to make spoken words binding. The implication of such an approach to honesty is that we do not need to be truthful except under oath. Jesus demands an integrity of speech as though everything were under oath. He also prohibited the implicit idolatry of swearing by anything less than God. See “Honest Speech, Oaths, and Vows” at Neh. 5:12.



I can't find any Bible scholar who claims that verse from Matthew or the verse in James mean that it is wrong to take any oath whatsoever.


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569876
07/08/19 08:54 AM
07/08/19 08:54 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Hope the preacher don't end up in court and have to swear on a bible to tell the truth. Jephthah made a vow to sacrifice what ever came thru the door first when he returned home if only he could win the battle. Which in itself brings the argument if that was literally ( which would be as to Molech) or merely dedicated her for a lifetime duty to God).
I think a lot of people start making vows to do such and if God will do such and such, turning God into a game show host."Come on Down" if the price is right.
Better not to vow than make and break.
Don't think you could believe the liberal way and ever become a Chaplin in the military.
We are not in the 1000 year rein yet.
Jesus was setting up the Kingdom and when he was rejected by his people things changed and opened up for the Gentiles to "seek the Kingdom of God" and not the "Kingdom of Heaven.
I'm thinking their wouldn't be many church's or preachers if we followed the utopian ways of the flower children in the "60,s
And to conclude the vow of Jephthah, we should give ours kids to God when they come thru the door at birth.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Kart29] #6569879
07/08/19 08:57 AM
07/08/19 08:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Kart29
Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 5:34 doesn't take that verse to prohibit taking an oath when required by the civil magistrates.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Matt.5.33-Matt.5.37

Also see commentary from the Reformation Study Bible:
Quote
Matt 5:34

5:34 Do not take an oath. Some have understood Jesus’ prohibition of oaths to be universal, but Jesus Himself submitted to oath (26:63), and Paul invoked God as his witness in Rom. 1:9. God Himself takes an oath so that we might be encouraged (Heb. 6:17). Jesus is addressing a narrow and misleading legalism that required a specific oath to make spoken words binding. The implication of such an approach to honesty is that we do not need to be truthful except under oath. Jesus demands an integrity of speech as though everything were under oath. He also prohibited the implicit idolatry of swearing by anything less than God. See “Honest Speech, Oaths, and Vows” at Neh. 5:12.



I can't find any Bible scholar who claims that verse from Matthew or the verse in James mean that it is wrong to take any oath whatsoever.


We give a Bible to each youth member that moves on from the group, should we be giving them the Scholar’s book instead?


-Goofy-
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569890
07/08/19 09:12 AM
07/08/19 09:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,257
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,257
Green County Wisconsin
I had heard about Quakers not Swearing an oath but not many others and that being why they may Affirm their oath of office hence not swearing.

I believe the context is you may only swear an oath to your church or god and not a state and thus why the legal and biblical scholars whom wrote our constitution allowed those Quakers or any other so religiously bound to Affirm their pledge.



In law, an affirmation is a solemn declaration allowed to those who conscientiously object to taking an oath. An affirmation has exactly the same legal effect as an oath but is usually taken to avoid the religious implications of an oath; it is thus legally binding but not considered a religious oath.


now my 3 favorite priests were Chaplin of the Navy , Air force and Marines. they certainly found a way to do both share the Gospel and serve.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569896
07/08/19 09:21 AM
07/08/19 09:21 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
The liberals would outlaw the 10 commandments if they could. So next to it they need to convince the people not to take an oath, vow, or promise, and to even join the military is wrong. They would love to do away with the party system, the Constitution, Guns and God. Their goal is to get to the state atheism (gosateizm).

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Foxpaw] #6569961
07/08/19 10:59 AM
07/08/19 10:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Teacher Offline
trapper
Teacher  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.

Last edited by Teacher; 07/08/19 11:00 AM. Reason: Misspelled word

Never too old to learn
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569964
07/08/19 11:05 AM
07/08/19 11:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,102
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,102
McGrath, AK
I might infer that your pastor would be unwilling to serve in the military if he had to take the oath. Would that be his position ??


Mean As Nails
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569965
07/08/19 11:07 AM
07/08/19 11:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
trapper
Kart29  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper

We give a Bible to each youth member that moves on from the group, should we be giving them the Scholar’s book instead?


Not instead - but giving a reputable commentary or two, in addition to the Bible, would be a great idea. God especially gifted some individuals with the gifts of knowledge, teaching, and exhortation for the benefit of His people in the church. It would be a waste for us not to make use of the gifted teachers that God has generously given us. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.

After all, if you take the time to listen to the teaching of your pastor and/or sunday school teachers (or ask for discussion from Trapperman.com members), why couldn't you also consider the exposition of the Bible from other respected scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of God's Word? Obviously, we need to test everything we read or hear and, to the best of understanding, verify that all these teachings are in accord with the Holy Scripture. Apparently, you and the folks in your church already do that since the congregation was discussing the sermon and you have also come here also to discuss it with others.

Last edited by Kart29; 07/08/19 11:16 AM.

What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569976
07/08/19 11:27 AM
07/08/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,092
Three Lakes,WI 72
C
corky Offline
trapper
corky  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,092
Three Lakes,WI 72
What is the difference between an oath and the vows taken by the religious? (Priests, ministers, nuns, deacons, rabbis, whatever)

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569978
07/08/19 11:32 AM
07/08/19 11:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,102
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,102
McGrath, AK
Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."


Mean As Nails
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569982
07/08/19 11:40 AM
07/08/19 11:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,666
pa
H
hippie Offline
trapper
hippie  Offline
trapper
H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,666
pa
Wonder what that preacher thinks of the Holy war we've been fighting for almost two decades?

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6569987
07/08/19 11:45 AM
07/08/19 11:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,671
Newark, Ohio 83 years
Actor Offline
trapper
Actor  Offline
trapper

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,671
Newark, Ohio 83 years
Very interesting discussion …

Garry-


“Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.”

Have been trapping 77 years…
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Teacher] #6569996
07/08/19 12:00 PM
07/08/19 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
G
gryhkl Offline
trapper
gryhkl  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
Originally Posted by Teacher
Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.


I'm no liberal but, because I agree with some of their positions and disagree with some on the extreme right, many try to put me in the liberal camp.

There are many who pick and choose what they believe (or want to believe)the bible says.
No matter who one listens to when it comes to interpreting what God's words mean, he should always pray for understanding. I believe God gave man his intellectual curiosity so that our beliefs and the free choices we make demonstrate our faith. If everything was cut and dried and proven beyond all doubt, there would be no need for faith.

As for the court of man's laws, we can affirm our testimony is true without bringing the Bible into things.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Teacher] #6570001
07/08/19 12:11 PM
07/08/19 12:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,514
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
T
Trapper7 Offline
trapper
Trapper7  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,514
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Originally Posted by Teacher
Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.


I think you are right in that not all liberals are the same. But, beyond liberals there is another class that are referred to as the left. They are different than the liberals in that they all come in the same color Foxpaw described.


I'm rich enough to buy anything I want, I just have to be careful on what I want.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread