The Conflict of Church and State
#6569817
07/08/19 06:28 AM
07/08/19 06:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715 Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper
OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
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OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Sunday’s service was about not taking an oath or “swearing.” Many scriptures were cited during the service. It was also great seeing one of our youth members visiting from her duty. She is a combat medic.
Anyway, the discussion after church was mostly about the Bible’s instruction not to take an oath and you can’t serve the country without taking one.
Thoughts?
Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 07/08/19 06:29 AM.
-Goofy-
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569830
07/08/19 07:11 AM
07/08/19 07:11 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715 Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper
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"Chippendale Trapper"
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OP
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So was the pastor wrong to state it is a sin to do so and improperly used the scriptures toward his claim?
Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 07/08/19 07:17 AM.
-Goofy-
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569835
07/08/19 07:25 AM
07/08/19 07:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324 Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29
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First, I question how the topic of taking an oath came up in the sermon. Does the pastor pick and choose topics for his sermons? Or has he been preaching through a book of the Bible and this topic just happened to come up in the text being studied? Did the preacher know the combat medic would be attending the service? I do not see in the Bible where lawful oaths are prohibited and don't know what would be used as justification for preaching such a position. From Deuteronomy 10 "Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. 21 He is the one you praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes."
This link references the Westminster Confession of Faith section 22 which summarizes the Bible's teaching in vows and lists many scripture references as the source. http://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/chapter-22/
What from Christ that soul can sever, Bound by everlasting bands? None shall take thee From the Strength of Israel's hands.
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569845
07/08/19 07:56 AM
07/08/19 07:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324 Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29
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Hancock Co., Indiana
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Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 5:34 doesn't take that verse to prohibit taking an oath when required by the civil magistrates. https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Matt.5.33-Matt.5.37Also see commentary from the Reformation Study Bible: Matt 5:34
5:34 Do not take an oath. Some have understood Jesus’ prohibition of oaths to be universal, but Jesus Himself submitted to oath (26:63), and Paul invoked God as his witness in Rom. 1:9. God Himself takes an oath so that we might be encouraged (Heb. 6:17). Jesus is addressing a narrow and misleading legalism that required a specific oath to make spoken words binding. The implication of such an approach to honesty is that we do not need to be truthful except under oath. Jesus demands an integrity of speech as though everything were under oath. He also prohibited the implicit idolatry of swearing by anything less than God. See “Honest Speech, Oaths, and Vows” at Neh. 5:12.
I can't find any Bible scholar who claims that verse from Matthew or the verse in James mean that it is wrong to take any oath whatsoever.
What from Christ that soul can sever, Bound by everlasting bands? None shall take thee From the Strength of Israel's hands.
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: Kart29]
#6569879
07/08/19 08:57 AM
07/08/19 08:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715 Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper
OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
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OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 5:34 doesn't take that verse to prohibit taking an oath when required by the civil magistrates. https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Matt.5.33-Matt.5.37Also see commentary from the Reformation Study Bible: Matt 5:34
5:34 Do not take an oath. Some have understood Jesus’ prohibition of oaths to be universal, but Jesus Himself submitted to oath (26:63), and Paul invoked God as his witness in Rom. 1:9. God Himself takes an oath so that we might be encouraged (Heb. 6:17). Jesus is addressing a narrow and misleading legalism that required a specific oath to make spoken words binding. The implication of such an approach to honesty is that we do not need to be truthful except under oath. Jesus demands an integrity of speech as though everything were under oath. He also prohibited the implicit idolatry of swearing by anything less than God. See “Honest Speech, Oaths, and Vows” at Neh. 5:12.
I can't find any Bible scholar who claims that verse from Matthew or the verse in James mean that it is wrong to take any oath whatsoever. We give a Bible to each youth member that moves on from the group, should we be giving them the Scholar’s book instead?
-Goofy-
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569890
07/08/19 09:12 AM
07/08/19 09:12 AM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,386 Green County Wisconsin
GREENCOUNTYPETE
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I had heard about Quakers not Swearing an oath but not many others and that being why they may Affirm their oath of office hence not swearing.
I believe the context is you may only swear an oath to your church or god and not a state and thus why the legal and biblical scholars whom wrote our constitution allowed those Quakers or any other so religiously bound to Affirm their pledge.
In law, an affirmation is a solemn declaration allowed to those who conscientiously object to taking an oath. An affirmation has exactly the same legal effect as an oath but is usually taken to avoid the religious implications of an oath; it is thus legally binding but not considered a religious oath.
now my 3 favorite priests were Chaplin of the Navy , Air force and Marines. they certainly found a way to do both share the Gospel and serve.
America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: Foxpaw]
#6569961
07/08/19 10:59 AM
07/08/19 10:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168 Rochester, MN
Teacher
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Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.
Last edited by Teacher; 07/08/19 11:00 AM. Reason: Misspelled word
Never too old to learn
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569965
07/08/19 11:07 AM
07/08/19 11:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324 Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29
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Hancock Co., Indiana
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We give a Bible to each youth member that moves on from the group, should we be giving them the Scholar’s book instead?
Not instead - but giving a reputable commentary or two, in addition to the Bible, would be a great idea. God especially gifted some individuals with the gifts of knowledge, teaching, and exhortation for the benefit of His people in the church. It would be a waste for us not to make use of the gifted teachers that God has generously given us. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors. After all, if you take the time to listen to the teaching of your pastor and/or sunday school teachers (or ask for discussion from Trapperman.com members), why couldn't you also consider the exposition of the Bible from other respected scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of God's Word? Obviously, we need to test everything we read or hear and, to the best of understanding, verify that all these teachings are in accord with the Holy Scripture. Apparently, you and the folks in your church already do that since the congregation was discussing the sermon and you have also come here also to discuss it with others.
Last edited by Kart29; 07/08/19 11:16 AM.
What from Christ that soul can sever, Bound by everlasting bands? None shall take thee From the Strength of Israel's hands.
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: HobbieTrapper]
#6569987
07/08/19 11:45 AM
07/08/19 11:45 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,683 Newark, Ohio 83 years
Actor
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,683
Newark, Ohio 83 years
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Very interesting discussion …
Garry-
“Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.”
Have been trapping 77 years…
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: Teacher]
#6569996
07/08/19 12:00 PM
07/08/19 12:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683 PA
gryhkl
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PA
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Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same. I'm no liberal but, because I agree with some of their positions and disagree with some on the extreme right, many try to put me in the liberal camp. There are many who pick and choose what they believe (or want to believe)the bible says. No matter who one listens to when it comes to interpreting what God's words mean, he should always pray for understanding. I believe God gave man his intellectual curiosity so that our beliefs and the free choices we make demonstrate our faith. If everything was cut and dried and proven beyond all doubt, there would be no need for faith. As for the court of man's laws, we can affirm our testimony is true without bringing the Bible into things.
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Re: The Conflict of Church and State
[Re: Teacher]
#6570001
07/08/19 12:11 PM
07/08/19 12:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,594 MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Trapper7
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MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same. I think you are right in that not all liberals are the same. But, beyond liberals there is another class that are referred to as the left. They are different than the liberals in that they all come in the same color Foxpaw described.
I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
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