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Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: white17] #6570007
07/08/19 12:16 PM
07/08/19 12:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline OP
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,711
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by white17
I might infer that your pastor would be unwilling to serve in the military if he had to take the oath. Would that be his position ??



He served, Air Force, I believe.


-Goofy-
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570008
07/08/19 12:18 PM
07/08/19 12:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,166
Alpine NY
Rick Otts Offline
trapper
Rick Otts  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,166
Alpine NY
While I pray to God every night I have not been in a church in decades! Just seems to me they are out to take your money.


Rick Otts
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Rick Otts] #6570024
07/08/19 12:47 PM
07/08/19 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,120
Northern Minnesota
BernieB. Offline
trapper
BernieB.  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,120
Northern Minnesota
Originally Posted by Rick Otts
While I pray to God every night I have not been in a church in decades! Just seems to me they are out to take your money.


I guess if you went once in a while you would realize how wrong you are.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570055
07/08/19 01:38 PM
07/08/19 01:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
G
gryhkl Offline
trapper
gryhkl  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
There's a guy on tv-murdock maybe? who only asks for listeners to send him money. He says it is planting a "seed" and, if the sucker is faithful enough, it will come back to him many times over. I wouldn't want to be near the guy during a lightening storm. whistle

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Teacher] #6570080
07/08/19 02:22 PM
07/08/19 02:22 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by Teacher
Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.


I am certainly sorry if you have identified yourself with any of the negatives I mentioned. However I don't think any of the labels that's used in today's arena are the same thing they was even 20 yrs ago. What other label could be used to describe a preacher who is ok with ordaining certain hybrids in there congregations, or confusing young individuals whether its ok to give your word, vow, or whatever to do your best to uphold what is asked of him or her as to their duty to their country. Or what would be a good label for someone who wouldn't twink twice about changing the constitution to fit their own agenda. What would be a good label for someone who wants to turn the borders loose and just have a free for all at voting time.
Traper7 implied that those farther off would be to the left. But since it was you that seems offended, if you would would pick the right label , I will edit out liberal and add as to your choosing. If you still identify with the negatives I just mentioned, then I truly am sorry I offend you.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Foxpaw] #6570122
07/08/19 03:26 PM
07/08/19 03:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,274
East-Central Wisconsin
B
bblwi Offline
trapper
bblwi  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,274
East-Central Wisconsin
If your beliefs tell you not to take an oath then don't join the military where you are asked to pledge to defend the Constitution, which means if you don't believe in taking oaths then maybe the constitution means little to nothing to you as well. I feel God throws out a huge net, far bigger than mere humans can comprehend and if we as humans want to play in the little sand box with our small outlooks than that is on us and not God.

Bryce

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Foxpaw] #6570128
07/08/19 03:33 PM
07/08/19 03:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,514
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
T
Trapper7 Offline
trapper
Trapper7  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,514
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by Teacher
Foxpaw, you paint all liberals with the same brush and you’re far from the truth. We liberals come in many colors. Some are red, others blue. Some go to church and others don’t. Some serve their country while others claim they have bone spurs and get deferments. Your problem with liberals seems to be they don’t believe what you think is important. I’m a liberal but I served my country, took an oath to defend America. Worked my entire life to keep people disease free and educated. Foxpaw, liberals and conservatives on this site enjoy trapping. It’s what we have in common. Thank goodness however, we don’t all think the same.


I am certainly sorry if you have identified yourself with any of the negatives I mentioned. However I don't think any of the labels that's used in today's arena are the same thing they was even 20 yrs ago. What other label could be used to describe a preacher who is ok with ordaining certain hybrids in there congregations, or confusing young individuals whether its ok to give your word, vow, or whatever to do your best to uphold what is asked of him or her as to their duty to their country. Or what would be a good label for someone who wouldn't twink twice about changing the constitution to fit their own agenda. What would be a good label for someone who wants to turn the borders loose and just have a free for all at voting time.
Traper7 implied that those farther off would be to the left. But since it was you that seems offended, if you would would pick the right label , I will edit out liberal and add as to your choosing. If you still identify with the negatives I just mentioned, then I truly am sorry I offend you.


There are no honorable, ethical, moral, or honest leftists.


I'm rich enough to buy anything I want, I just have to be careful on what I want.
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Rick Otts] #6570181
07/08/19 04:37 PM
07/08/19 04:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
maintenanceguy Offline
trapper
maintenanceguy  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
Originally Posted by Rick Otts
While I pray to God every night I have not been in a church in decades! Just seems to me they are out to take your money.


That's true of some. Not true of all.


-Ryan
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570212
07/08/19 05:44 PM
07/08/19 05:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,880
Arkansas
J
J Staton Offline
trapper
J Staton  Offline
trapper
J

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,880
Arkansas
Not knowing the full context of the sermon, I have no idea what your pastor was implying. As for swearing I would suggest to be careful what you swear for. If you can't fulfill the obligation you swore by it would be no different than telling a lie to God Almighty. As for oaths to country and such, I see no sin in such oaths. IMO.


James 1: 19-20
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570215
07/08/19 05:51 PM
07/08/19 05:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
G
gryhkl Offline
trapper
gryhkl  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
Swearing an Oath on the Bible Is Not Required
Court scenes in American movies, television, and books typically show people swearing an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Typically, they do so by swearing an oath "to God" with a hand on the Bible. Such scenes are so common that most people seem to assume that it's required. However, it's not.


You have a right to simply "affirm" that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. No gods, Bibles, or anything else religious need to be involved.

This is not an issue that only affects atheists. Many religious believers, including some Christians, object to swearing oaths to God and would prefer to affirm that they will tell the truth.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570221
07/08/19 06:03 PM
07/08/19 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Really what good would it do to have an atheist swear on a bible. Or swear in an atheist president for that matter.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570260
07/08/19 07:06 PM
07/08/19 07:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,692
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,692
williamsburg ks
so Christians always tell the truth after they swear on a bible?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: danny clifton] #6570263
07/08/19 07:09 PM
07/08/19 07:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,763
East of the Mason-Dixon Line
DelawareRob Offline
trapper
DelawareRob  Offline
trapper

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,763
East of the Mason-Dixon Line
Originally Posted by danny clifton
so Christians always tell the truth after they swear on a bible?


Of course, it’s right there in the Ten Commandments


Who is John Galt?

You don't rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.

Semper Paratus
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: danny clifton] #6570298
07/08/19 08:00 PM
07/08/19 08:00 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by danny clifton
so Christians always tell the truth after they swear on a bible?


There will be a judgement. God is a just God and would not judge one on some scale they had never heard of. In heaven there is an Ark that the one here on earth was designed from. A believer has the commandments in their heart. Law is the heart of our religion. If you have never been convicted of any thing then you know nothing of it. Once is enough. The world would cut the very heart from Jesus if possible. Jesus is our lawyer and Judge.So you see a pledge, vow ,promise, oath is bringing judgement on the believer if he breaks it. There is another judgement for the unbeliever its the Great White Throne judgement. That's why its important to change before its too late. One bright note is that the little puppies even get the scraps so there is hope for the lost. One can tell just how hungry the puppies are when you drop a scrap and they grab them right up. They will even get on the table if you let them, lol.

Last edited by Foxpaw; 07/08/19 08:02 PM. Reason: old age
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: danny clifton] #6570312
07/08/19 08:22 PM
07/08/19 08:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,880
Arkansas
J
J Staton Offline
trapper
J Staton  Offline
trapper
J

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,880
Arkansas
Originally Posted by danny clifton
so Christians always tell the truth after they swear on a bible?

That's why you don't make it a habit to swear. If you're going to swear you better honor it.
Of course this would also apply to atheist. We've all heard the saying, "A man is only as good as his word."
Only wish that was followed/applied more often in today's world. A handshake and a man's word doesn't mean what it once did. Dang shame.


James 1: 19-20
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570626
07/09/19 10:14 AM
07/09/19 10:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
Kart29 Offline
trapper
Kart29  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,324
Hancock Co., Indiana
I wonder how the preacher feels about marriage vows. Would he say they are verboten, too?


What from Christ that soul can sever,
Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Kart29] #6570665
07/09/19 11:35 AM
07/09/19 11:35 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by Kart29
I wonder how the preacher feels about marriage vows. Would he say they are verboten, too?


And it was quiet in heaven for 30 minutes.

Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570703
07/09/19 12:59 PM
07/09/19 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,104
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Offline
trapper
Boco  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,104
james bay frontierOnt.
You don't have to use a bible to take an oath.
Muzlims can use a Koran(their bible),and native people often use the Eagle feather to swear an oath.
Non believers can solemnly swear,without using any prop.

Last edited by Boco; 07/09/19 12:59 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: Boco] #6570836
07/09/19 05:33 PM
07/09/19 05:33 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,482
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by Boco
You don't have to use a bible to take an oath.
Muzlims can use a Koran(their bible),and native people often use the Eagle feather to swear an oath.
Non believers can solemnly swear,without using any prop.


Why would a Godless world want to adhere to anything Godly. Standards are used as a means to get everyone on the same playing field. People go into contracts to bind. People take vows to marry or have witnesses at the ceremony for a binding contract, one importance is the welfare of the children, should unforeseen events happen. When you swear or vow it only makes sense to swear to a cause or institution or name bigger than yourself. To do less would be meaningless. To make a contract would be more binding if you knew it was going to cost you something to break it, but still it has be enforceable, if its not enforceable then how binding can it be? Man is becoming unaccountable to anyone, he is thinking he is Supreme. He makes his own standards. If gold is unattainable as a standard then make bitcoin. I guess for copy right reason things are becoming less universal. If you want to invest in something you would want to put your money where it is liquid enough to get your money back instead of buying scrip in Al's possum farm where the only place you can get your value back is in trading for possums. Why mess with new standards.

Nothing is ever new its all been before. When I first heard the word prenuptial I thought that was something new that was just thought up to make lawyers rich. Later in life I studied in the Talmud and found that they had the same thing way back then to protect the woman. If a woman married a tanner and brought her dowry to the marriage she had 6 months to try the marriage and at the end of 6 months she wanted to leave she could and take her dowry with her. They reasoned that before she lived with him she didn't know how bad he stank. Or he could have even lied and told her his bad odor came from a more profitable perfume business. Any way if she stayed with him more than 6 months her dowry was bound to the marriage, if she left she had to leave the dowry. They thought that after 6 months with him she knew if she could stand the smell, after that she was bound by the marriage contract.

You see things have been recorded thru the ages, things that were tried and proven were kept and/or modified. Our country has was worked using standards that have been in place for hundreds and thousands of years. Why throw it away in only a generation or two? Surely you can look at the other atheistic country's. Yes, the socialists may give the people every need until they gain power from and by them but then will be thrown away like an old pair of shoes.

"Oh for a thousand tongues to sing" "Blessed be the Name Of The Lord"

Last edited by Foxpaw; 07/09/19 05:38 PM.
Re: The Conflict of Church and State [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6570948
07/09/19 08:55 PM
07/09/19 08:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,269
Indiana
B
brianmall Offline
trapper
brianmall  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,269
Indiana
I don't believe the context your pastor is referring to dictates a believer can't swear any kind of oath. But can swear an oath to something or someone as long as it doesn't put one at odds with God.

There was a daughter that was killed as a result of a hasty decision to make an oath. So the moral there would be to be very careful in the oath you swear!

As far as the "conflict of church and state goes:. There is no conflict! Our govt is to make no law prohibiting religious liberty. We can write in God we trust on our computer screens, Congress halls, etc... Etc...

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