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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6574933
07/16/19 12:31 PM
07/16/19 12:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline OP
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rpmartin  Offline OP
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Thanks for clearing that up Paul. What's your thoughts on these lure studies? Are they worth the paper they are printed on? Has your lures ever been involved in any studies?


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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6574971
07/16/19 01:50 PM
07/16/19 01:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,494
Goldsboro, North Carolina
Paul Dobbins Offline
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No, my lures weren't involved in those studies. I think the studies were done before most of mine were developed.

The only study my lures have undergone was done by Jlord. He knows someone who likes to chemically break things down, so Jlord had him break down lures from different producers from one year to the next. Mine were found to be very consistent from one year to the next.

The critters will let you know what's what when it comes to lures. There have been a lot of lures developed since those studies, so I think to rely solely on those results will limit you to a small segment of what's out there now.

Canine Call has been a proven lure over the years, and continues to be a very good lure.



Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6574994
07/16/19 02:36 PM
07/16/19 02:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline OP
trapper
rpmartin  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
It would be great to have say 10 or so of the top lure makers and have them pick out 1 canine lure from their lineup to test against the others. I wonder why no more studies have been done for such a long time.? Not enough interest I would guess.?


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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575030
07/16/19 03:55 PM
07/16/19 03:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,691
Nevadafornia
L
Lazarus Offline
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Nevadafornia
Originally Posted by rpmartin
It would be great to have say 10 or so of the top lure makers and have them pick out 1 canine lure from their lineup to test against the others. I wonder why no more studies have been done for such a long time.? Not enough interest I would guess.?


Back in the '70's when most of the lure research was done, there was much more lethal damage control than there is now. There just aren't the amount of guys on the ground doing control work as there was in those days, plus it was during the fur boom so everyone trapped predators because they were all worth money. The side-by-side comparisons of commercial lures done in these studies was only part of the picture. The government testers were not just looking for the compounded lure or bait that was the most attractive, they wanted to reduce that bait or lure to a single ingredient/odor that they could replicate very fast and at a lower cost (as budgets were shrinking). That's why most of those tests always throw in several single compound synthetic odors. The Holy Grail was to find the one odor that outshone all the rest--To reduce all the black magic of lure making to a single odor that could be isolated, replicated and produced en masse. For the most part, that was the genesis of stuff like Synthetic Fermented Egg, Volatile Fatty Acids and others. Of all those synthetics, TMAD appears to come the closest to the odor which had the greatest response from coyotes. The problem is it was difficult and complicated to make, and was caustic as all get out. Still, it seems to have been what the government researchers were after.

Today, there are not just "10 Top Lure Makers." Look at MTP's website -- there are 30 lure makers on there and they all have stuff they have spent countless hours and dollars trying to compound and formulate to be the best attractant possible. I can name another dozen that are top notch lure makers who aren't advertised on MTP (not knocking MTP by any means -- I mean how many lure makers can supply??). Guys like Wayne Derrick, Marty Smith, James Lucero, etc. have some first class coyote dope. And if you asked any of these lure makers to pick their best stuff, many would say "it's all my best stuff." Others would probably tell you that what makes a lure attractive has a lot to do with time of year, pressure or habituation of the coyote to a particular lure or ingredient, application at the set, set construction, etc.

I have a friend who shall remain nameless that I think is one of the best coyote trappers in the western US. Full time coyote guy in high pressure areas. Works in a difficult climate, etc. He makes most of his own lure and he's extremely talented at it. He also buys some prepared lures. But I notice nearly every year he is changing what he uses. Every year he has a new "favorite" lure. When I ask him, he says coyotes change every year, and if you just stay with the same lure as last year, there is a certain percentage of coyotes that you will not catch because that isn't the lure that is attractive to them this year. Often its the novelty of the lure that piques a coyote's interest. As a simple example, when I bring home a new bag of dog food for my dog, even though I still have a half a barrel of food left and he's been fed that morning, he can't help himself. He has to go dive into that new bag because it represents something new and interesting to him.

Not picking on rpmartin -- I think I get what you're saying. We'd all like some help narrowing down our choices!!

Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575054
07/16/19 04:45 PM
07/16/19 04:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline OP
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S/W Wisconsin
Very well thought out and put Laz. Not taken the wrong way at all. I agree with the whole thing especially the part about your friend needing to keep changing things up. The off season is a great time for a few thought provoking questions and comments. Thanks for the info


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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: Lazarus] #6575061
07/16/19 05:00 PM
07/16/19 05:00 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,493
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline
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Garden,Michigan
That's fascinating Lazarus.The theory being that they could get habituated to the lures being used consistanly.Alot of guys will say it don't matter because the catch is made up of pups,but it seems like I once read something similar happen when poison was used with large baits.Coyotes,thru time began to steer clear of bait stations.Never thought about it in relation to lure and baits.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #6575063
07/16/19 05:04 PM
07/16/19 05:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,691
Nevadafornia
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Lazarus Offline
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Originally Posted by Buck (Zandra)
That's fascinating Lazarus.The theory being that they could get habituated to the lures being used consistanly.Alot of guys will say it don't matter because the catch is made up of pups,but it seems like I once read something similar happen when poison was used with large baits.Coyotes,thru time began to steer clear of bait stations.Never thought about it in relation to lure and baits.


Exactly. My friend says he's always finding old sets where guys left their lure sticks behind so the coyotes see and smell that stuff year round. They may not have even had a bad experience with it, but maybe they saw a buddy that was caught and they've just associated all that catch circle odor to a particular lure. Even if they've not had a bad experience with an odor, if they smell it all year long it loses its "punch" when the coyote gets a whiff of it during trapping season. Its that novelty idea again.

Last edited by Lazarus; 07/16/19 05:05 PM.
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575065
07/16/19 05:06 PM
07/16/19 05:06 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,493
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline
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Well,after reading your post again maybe your friends theory and mine are on different tracks.But I think its close enough.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575094
07/16/19 06:39 PM
07/16/19 06:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,109
South Ga - Almost Florida
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Swamp Wolf Offline
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I usually carry 4 or 5 different lures and 2 different baits. Have always swapped out all lures and bait in my bag at once.....sometimes twice in a day....sometimes the next day so all remakes have a different odor. I'm constantly mixing them up...never the same few combination.

This is for coyotes, cats, fox...

Last edited by Swamp Wolf; 07/16/19 06:40 PM.

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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #6575603
07/17/19 01:47 PM
07/17/19 01:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,445
Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Originally Posted by Buck (Zandra)
That's fascinating Lazarus.The theory being that they could get habituated to the lures being used consistanly.Alot of guys will say it don't matter because the catch is made up of pups,but it seems like I once read something similar happen when poison was used with large baits.Coyotes,thru time began to steer clear of bait stations.Never thought about it in relation to lure and baits.

I spoke with a government trapper years ago, he told me poison bait trains coyotes to actually kill more. They wont eat it unless they actually kill it.


I rotate lures until I see what the yotes hit every season. Laz is right, it changes every year and throughout the season. The overall population and food base has a lot to do with this, as well as how many pups are in said population. Some stand the test of time some just don't for whatever reason. We now have more choices than ever, let YOUR coyotes make the choices.. Canine Call has killed a lot of coyotes but does it work for you and your coyotes? For me Iv'e had better luck with Pro's Choice for years. But I don't use it at every location. And I do not leave anything lured behind when I pull. The surprise factor is a biggy…


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575613
07/17/19 02:15 PM
07/17/19 02:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
SW Pa
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wr otis Offline
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"There are thirty lure makers on there" how many of the thirty would you think actually developed their own formulas? And or produce their own stuff?

A million lure makers working with a finite number of ingredients, are going to end up with a lot of similar smells. How many formulas have been bought and sold all based on the Nelson formulas?

Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: wr otis] #6575628
07/17/19 03:04 PM
07/17/19 03:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wr otis
"There are thirty lure makers on there" how many of the thirty would you think actually developed their own formulas? And or produce their own stuff?

A million lure makers working with a finite number of ingredients, are going to end up with a lot of similar smells. How many formulas have been bought and sold all based on the Nelson formulas?


Very good point!!


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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: wr otis] #6575668
07/17/19 04:21 PM
07/17/19 04:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,494
Goldsboro, North Carolina
Paul Dobbins Offline
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Paul Dobbins  Offline
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Originally Posted by wr otis
"There are thirty lure makers on there" how many of the thirty would you think actually developed their own formulas? And or produce their own stuff?


Here's one. I have access to a lot of lure formulas, but it's so much more challenging to come up with a successful lure on my own, and so satisfying when I do develop a good one. My lures are all original formulas, not copied from other lure makers.



Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575690
07/17/19 05:05 PM
07/17/19 05:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,235
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline OP
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S/W Wisconsin
Paul, I use several of your lures. But i do not use them alone at a set, it's always a combination of another lure or bait so not sure what is bringing them in. Could you help me out and break down the best way or the way your coyote and cat lures were designed to be used at a set as in alone, combination, dirt hole etc. Thanks


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Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6575818
07/17/19 07:43 PM
07/17/19 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,494
Goldsboro, North Carolina
Paul Dobbins Offline
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Paul Dobbins  Offline
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Goldsboro, North Carolina
That won't do you any good - lol. For instance, I make Canine Select as a lure to be used down the hole, however, I have a lot of trappers who say they use it successfully at flat sets. I feel the canine gland lures are best used at flat sets, but here again, I have lots of folks who successfully use them in holes. My best advice is to use them where you find the best success. There's only one right way, and that's the way that works best for you.



Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6576143
07/18/19 08:50 AM
07/18/19 08:50 AM
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I find many of these lures and baits contain a number of the same ingredients or combination of ingredients. When I switch, it is natural and only one odor,not many of the same. A coyote will consume a sheep or cow or deer without all the additional smells in the everyday natural setting.

Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: tbn] #6576281
07/18/19 12:48 PM
07/18/19 12:48 PM
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Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline
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Originally Posted by tbn
I find many of these lures and baits contain a number of the same ingredients or combination of ingredients. When I switch, it is natural and only one odor,not many of the same. A coyote will consume a sheep or cow or deer without all the additional smells in the everyday natural setting.

Interesting.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: tbn] #6577040
07/19/19 01:47 PM
07/19/19 01:47 PM
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Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Originally Posted by tbn
I find many of these lures and baits contain a number of the same ingredients or combination of ingredients. When I switch, it is natural and only one odor,not many of the same. A coyote will consume a sheep or cow or deer without all the additional smells in the everyday natural setting.

Your forgetting the human factor at the set, those sheep, deer and cattle don't have traps buried in the ground by a human. A well compounded lure takes their mind of that.


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: rpmartin] #6577051
07/19/19 02:16 PM
07/19/19 02:16 PM
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Or it spooks em with a dozen odors not natural to their surroundings.

Re: Carman,s canine call [Re: Lazarus] #6577061
07/19/19 02:42 PM
07/19/19 02:42 PM
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MISSOURI
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Sleepyhollow Offline
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
Originally Posted by rpmartin
It would be great to have say 10 or so of the top lure makers and have them pick out 1 canine lure from their lineup to test against the others. I wonder why no more studies have been done for such a long time.? Not enough interest I would guess.?


Back in the '70's when most of the lure research was done, there was much more lethal damage control than there is now. There just aren't the amount of guys on the ground doing control work as there was in those days, plus it was during the fur boom so everyone trapped predators because they were all worth money. The side-by-side comparisons of commercial lures done in these studies was only part of the picture. The government testers were not just looking for the compounded lure or bait that was the most attractive, they wanted to reduce that bait or lure to a single ingredient/odor that they could replicate very fast and at a lower cost (as budgets were shrinking). That's why most of those tests always throw in several single compound synthetic odors. The Holy Grail was to find the one odor that outshone all the rest--To reduce all the black magic of lure making to a single odor that could be isolated, replicated and produced en masse. For the most part, that was the genesis of stuff like Synthetic Fermented Egg, Volatile Fatty Acids and others. Of all those synthetics, TMAD appears to come the closest to the odor which had the greatest response from coyotes. The problem is it was difficult and complicated to make, and was caustic as all get out. Still, it seems to have been what the government researchers were after.

Today, there are not just "10 Top Lure Makers." Look at MTP's website -- there are 30 lure makers on there and they all have stuff they have spent countless hours and dollars trying to compound and formulate to be the best attractant possible. I can name another dozen that are top notch lure makers who aren't advertised on MTP (not knocking MTP by any means -- I mean how many lure makers can supply??). Guys like Wayne Derrick, Marty Smith, James Lucero, etc. have some first class coyote dope. And if you asked any of these lure makers to pick their best stuff, many would say "it's all my best stuff." Others would probably tell you that what makes a lure attractive has a lot to do with time of year, pressure or habituation of the coyote to a particular lure or ingredient, application at the set, set construction, etc.

I have a friend who shall remain nameless that I think is one of the best coyote trappers in the western US. Full time coyote guy in high pressure areas. Works in a difficult climate, etc. He makes most of his own lure and he's extremely talented at it. He also buys some prepared lures. But I notice nearly every year he is changing what he uses. Every year he has a new "favorite" lure. When I ask him, he says coyotes change every year, and if you just stay with the same lure as last year, there is a certain percentage of coyotes that you will not catch because that isn't the lure that is attractive to them this year. Often its the novelty of the lure that piques a coyote's interest. As a simple example, when I bring home a new bag of dog food for my dog, even though I still have a half a barrel of food left and he's been fed that morning, he can't help himself. He has to go dive into that new bag because it represents something new and interesting to him.

Not picking on rpmartin -- I think I get what you're saying. We'd all like some help narrowing down our choices!!


Very well said my friend. Mr.Wayne Derrick is probably one the the most overlooked coyote trapper and lure maker in the business today. A wealth of knowledge that few will ever experience.

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