This lure sure does great in testing according to the Sherm Blom article in the Trapper World magazine. I know Carmen advises to use this lure without bait at dirt holes. Who uses this lure alone with no bait . Results? What other lures have you noticed work better alone?

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/gpwdcwp/67/
Claim to fame, read your heart out

That's the same as the article in the mag. Interesting results and a good reason to buy and try more lure. Lol

Always have a bottle in my lure bag, been using it since late 80s and still one I have a lot of confidence in.
I've had good luck with it at post and flat sets but I also use it at double dirthole, bait in one hole lure in other. Maybe not supposed to use it that way but I've nailed a lot of coyotes at double dirtholes with that combo arrangement.
Jim

Been a go to for me over the last few yrs. Worked good in dh alone and flat sets. Sure works on the kitties to

Carmen's final touch did well also. Anyone else seeing a pattern of certain m44 lures doing really well in these research studies? Makes sense to me because these lures cause more than one response from an animal.

Great lure one of my go to but has anyone noticed a difference in these lures from say the early 2000s to today’s stuff? Might be just me....

A lot of well known lures have changed drastically over the years. In the body of the lure and performance.

I've been using Carman's lure for more than 40 years. I remember a well know PA fox trapper saying (on here) that he talked to Russ and Russ told him that the CC made that year was very good and it was time to stock up. I do know this there is a big difference in some runs of CC. My knowledge isn't current as I stopped buying it about 6 or 7 years ago. I do use some of Carmen's other lures and about 5 years ago I had three coyotes one night that all were caught with Carmen's lure. My other 40 or so sets that night caught nothing. I'm guessing that I had about 10 sets lured with Carmen's that night.

Did carmen sell his lure line at one time then start back up again? Maybe I am thinking of someone else.

No doubt a lot of things change over the years.

What is the best way to get maximum smell out of a hole using only a small amount of lure? Sheep's wool?

From my memory, Carmen sold his original line of lures and later started some others under different lure names.

CC is a great cat lure.

Your the 2nd person to mention cats Laz, coming from you that is saying something. iirc in his book carmen said that this lure should be in a big percentage of your sets. Figured that for a sales pitch but after this i think i'll be using it more. Thanks for all the good feed back, great info to have.

I wish I had bought it by the 55 gallon drum back in the 80s

I use it mainly up higher as a call lure.

From what I remember and I believe this came right from Russ was he sold his lure line, but then he started the Carman's Pro Grade lure line. As far as I know he still produce's the "Pro Grade" lures today. If you look at FNT for example the first number of lures are just labeled as Carman's, but at the bottom the last half are labeled "Carman's Pro Grade ________insert lure name here." I really had a good response to circle maker with red fox....you don't hear about it much. I also caught just about every fur bearer in Nebraska on Pro's Choice back in the day although the study I put up didn't show a great response to the Pro's Choice.

That makes sense Wade, thanks for clearing that up. Not that it matters but do you know who the maker is now? I remember reading on some of the { whats your fav lure threads} circle maker was mentioned a few times. Both circle maker and pro's choice are sitting on my lure rack, yes i have a lure buying problem. Lol

I believe russ was ill and sold rights to sterling, he may have still been making them though I don't remember. Sterling has people that make lures for them, so that's possible also. The whole story was on here at the time, but it's been a while.
One famous lure maker had a lure that was generally black, I was told he couldn't get color from one batch to match the last batch, so he colored it all black or dark. Another famous trapper told me the same, one batch looks one way, next batch different.

Thanks for the info wr, good stuff. If they made his lure half as good as the studies show it would still be well worth using.

Russ still makes the lures for Sterling Fur. Russ' table is right next to mine at the NY convention and we've discussed it. He sold his lure line, but still formulates the lures. Sterling furnishes the ingredients for him to work with. His Pro Grade line is separate and something he started after he sold his other lure line.

Thanks for clearing that up Paul. What's your thoughts on these lure studies? Are they worth the paper they are printed on? Has your lures ever been involved in any studies?

No, my lures weren't involved in those studies. I think the studies were done before most of mine were developed.

The only study my lures have undergone was done by Jlord. He knows someone who likes to chemically break things down, so Jlord had him break down lures from different producers from one year to the next. Mine were found to be very consistent from one year to the next.

The critters will let you know what's what when it comes to lures. There have been a lot of lures developed since those studies, so I think to rely solely on those results will limit you to a small segment of what's out there now.

Canine Call has been a proven lure over the years, and continues to be a very good lure.

It would be great to have say 10 or so of the top lure makers and have them pick out 1 canine lure from their lineup to test against the others. I wonder why no more studies have been done for such a long time.? Not enough interest I would guess.?

Back in the '70's when most of the lure research was done, there was much more lethal damage control than there is now. There just aren't the amount of guys on the ground doing control work as there was in those days, plus it was during the fur boom so everyone trapped predators because they were all worth money. The side-by-side comparisons of commercial lures done in these studies was only part of the picture. The government testers were not just looking for the compounded lure or bait that was the most attractive, they wanted to reduce that bait or lure to a single ingredient/odor that they could replicate very fast and at a lower cost (as budgets were shrinking). That's why most of those tests always throw in several single compound synthetic odors. The Holy Grail was to find the one odor that outshone all the rest--To reduce all the black magic of lure making to a single odor that could be isolated, replicated and produced en masse. For the most part, that was the genesis of stuff like Synthetic Fermented Egg, Volatile Fatty Acids and others. Of all those synthetics, TMAD appears to come the closest to the odor which had the greatest response from coyotes. The problem is it was difficult and complicated to make, and was caustic as all get out. Still, it seems to have been what the government researchers were after.

Today, there are not just "10 Top Lure Makers." Look at MTP's website -- there are 30 lure makers on there and they all have stuff they have spent countless hours and dollars trying to compound and formulate to be the best attractant possible. I can name another dozen that are top notch lure makers who aren't advertised on MTP (not knocking MTP by any means -- I mean how many lure makers can supply??). Guys like Wayne Derrick, Marty Smith, James Lucero, etc. have some first class coyote dope. And if you asked any of these lure makers to pick their best stuff, many would say "it's all my best stuff." Others would probably tell you that what makes a lure attractive has a lot to do with time of year, pressure or habituation of the coyote to a particular lure or ingredient, application at the set, set construction, etc.

I have a friend who shall remain nameless that I think is one of the best coyote trappers in the western US. Full time coyote guy in high pressure areas. Works in a difficult climate, etc. He makes most of his own lure and he's extremely talented at it. He also buys some prepared lures. But I notice nearly every year he is changing what he uses. Every year he has a new "favorite" lure. When I ask him, he says coyotes change every year, and if you just stay with the same lure as last year, there is a certain percentage of coyotes that you will not catch because that isn't the lure that is attractive to them this year. Often its the novelty of the lure that piques a coyote's interest. As a simple example, when I bring home a new bag of dog food for my dog, even though I still have a half a barrel of food left and he's been fed that morning, he can't help himself. He has to go dive into that new bag because it represents something new and interesting to him.

Not picking on rpmartin -- I think I get what you're saying. We'd all like some help narrowing down our choices!!

Very well thought out and put Laz. Not taken the wrong way at all. I agree with the whole thing especially the part about your friend needing to keep changing things up. The off season is a great time for a few thought provoking questions and comments. Thanks for the info

That's fascinating Lazarus.The theory being that they could get habituated to the lures being used consistanly.Alot of guys will say it don't matter because the catch is made up of pups,but it seems like I once read something similar happen when poison was used with large baits.Coyotes,thru time began to steer clear of bait stations.Never thought about it in relation to lure and baits.

Exactly. My friend says he's always finding old sets where guys left their lure sticks behind so the coyotes see and smell that stuff year round. They may not have even had a bad experience with it, but maybe they saw a buddy that was caught and they've just associated all that catch circle odor to a particular lure. Even if they've not had a bad experience with an odor, if they smell it all year long it loses its "punch" when the coyote gets a whiff of it during trapping season. Its that novelty idea again.

Well,after reading your post again maybe your friends theory and mine are on different tracks.But I think its close enough.

I usually carry 4 or 5 different lures and 2 different baits. Have always swapped out all lures and bait in my bag at once.....sometimes twice in a day....sometimes the next day so all remakes have a different odor. I'm constantly mixing them up...never the same few combination.

This is for coyotes, cats, fox...

I spoke with a government trapper years ago, he told me poison bait trains coyotes to actually kill more. They wont eat it unless they actually kill it.


I rotate lures until I see what the yotes hit every season. Laz is right, it changes every year and throughout the season. The overall population and food base has a lot to do with this, as well as how many pups are in said population. Some stand the test of time some just don't for whatever reason. We now have more choices than ever, let YOUR coyotes make the choices.. Canine Call has killed a lot of coyotes but does it work for you and your coyotes? For me Iv'e had better luck with Pro's Choice for years. But I don't use it at every location. And I do not leave anything lured behind when I pull. The surprise factor is a biggy…

"There are thirty lure makers on there" how many of the thirty would you think actually developed their own formulas? And or produce their own stuff?

A million lure makers working with a finite number of ingredients, are going to end up with a lot of similar smells. How many formulas have been bought and sold all based on the Nelson formulas?

Very good point!!

Here's one. I have access to a lot of lure formulas, but it's so much more challenging to come up with a successful lure on my own, and so satisfying when I do develop a good one. My lures are all original formulas, not copied from other lure makers.

Paul, I use several of your lures. But i do not use them alone at a set, it's always a combination of another lure or bait so not sure what is bringing them in. Could you help me out and break down the best way or the way your coyote and cat lures were designed to be used at a set as in alone, combination, dirt hole etc. Thanks

That won't do you any good - lol. For instance, I make Canine Select as a lure to be used down the hole, however, I have a lot of trappers who say they use it successfully at flat sets. I feel the canine gland lures are best used at flat sets, but here again, I have lots of folks who successfully use them in holes. My best advice is to use them where you find the best success. There's only one right way, and that's the way that works best for you.

I find many of these lures and baits contain a number of the same ingredients or combination of ingredients. When I switch, it is natural and only one odor,not many of the same. A coyote will consume a sheep or cow or deer without all the additional smells in the everyday natural setting.

Interesting.

Your forgetting the human factor at the set, those sheep, deer and cattle don't have traps buried in the ground by a human. A well compounded lure takes their mind of that.

Or it spooks em with a dozen odors not natural to their surroundings.

Very well said my friend. Mr.Wayne Derrick is probably one the the most overlooked coyote trapper and lure maker in the business today. A wealth of knowledge that few will ever experience.

Ok

caught another pair coming in on a cow path in blind sets. I agree with tbn.

prepared lures and baits work great but so do other options


these two were caught by just bedding traps around the dead calf.

Keep track of what you're using at each set, its location, the weather conditions, the length of time before/between a catch, and so on. At the end of the season, collate that information into a spreadsheet and start playing with the numbers. Do this season after season, and you'll start to get a picture of what works, when and where; patterns will emerge regarding bait/lure combinations and set selection. And you might just discover some things you never anticipated - that's the fun part.

Don't think you can just rely on your memory to analyze what worked and didn't work. Most people are not that gifted. Besides, we tend to be our own worst enemies in this regard; subjective biases and the human capacity for self-deception too easily distort the bigger picture. We're just not naturally attuned to looking at the things in such broader terms.

What if you have 75 percent poor locations for one reason or another? Your results and conclusions are subject to the effects of your own decisions, which may or may not be understood by the investigator. IE you stink at picking spots and blame the lure for lack of success.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel wr Otis

The test here is about the effectiveness of a specific range of lures/baits for coyotes. As such, there are certain assumptions or effects that are more or less fixed so-to-speak, or at least should be:

1. You have a sufficient population of coyotes present for the test to be meaningful. E.g., if you drop Craig O’Gorman onto the Hawaiian island of Maui and ask him to conduct the test with everything he needs, he will conclude after several months that all the lures and baits tested are worthless for catching coyotes. But he will have a nice tan when he returns home.

2. The person conducting the test is sufficiently skilled to carry out the test for meaningful results. E.g., if you drop Rosie O'Donnell onto the plains of eastern Montana and ask her to conduct the same test with everything she needs, we’ll never see her again, and the person who recruited her would receive the Presidential Medal of Honor and a ticker tape parade.

You can see where I’m going with this. So yes, someone who sucks at coyote trapping will have a difficult time figuring out the effectiveness of one lure/bait over another. But your question brings up an important issue having to do with internal versus external validity, and why studies like that of Graves and Boddicker are so difficult to do. But that discussion would get us deep into the weeds....

I met Russ Carmen at the same convention. When I started trapping in the 70's, his and Hawbackers were the go to lures. We didn't have coyotes yet but I hammered the reds and greys with his Final Touch.... It was an honor to meet him (and Mr. Dobbins) and they was very cordial. I've had some pretty good success on coyotes with his Circle Maker and Circle Maker Magnum when it gets colder. Need to plug Dobbins Backbreaker because its been a killer on K9's too.

Is there a GoFundMe link for the Rosie O'Donnell part?

LMBO

I would donate generously if she really would disappear. Lol

Yes Backbreaker is always close at hand when on the line.

Awesome idea, Laz! So which of the following portraits should I showcase for the GoFundMe page? I'm leaning toward #3.

<< Just had to get rid of those first two pics...and probably should toss the third too. >>

Yeah, I thought that was a little on low side too.

That was probably before they told her to put BOTH feet on the scale.

She's such a babe. I sort of have a crush on her....or a fetish to be crushed.

Edit: I'm thinking NOT family friendly and slightly off topic.

Sounds like you're inFATuated with her.

Your a sick puppy. Lol

Originally Posted by Buck (Zandra)
"That's fascinating Lazarus.The theory being that they could get habituated to the lures being used consistanly.Alot of guys will say it don't matter because the catch is made up of pups,but it seems like I once read something similar happen when poison was used with large baits.Coyotes,thru time began to steer clear of bait stations.Never thought about it in relation to lure and baits."


"Exactly. My friend says he's always finding old sets where guys left their lure sticks behind so the coyotes see and smell that stuff year round. They may not have even had a bad experience with it, but maybe they saw a buddy that was caught and they've just associated all that catch circle odor to a particular lure. Even if they've not had a bad experience with an odor, if they smell it all year long it loses its "punch" when the coyote gets a whiff of it during trapping season. Its that novelty idea again."

Ah, if young folks or beginners at any age are reading this, you may have just learned a pretty important thing most experienced old timers had figured out. Not talked about much but it is by some of the better teachers in the game.

Thanks to everyone that has shared on this thread.

Mac

Thank you, Mac, for bringing us back into the fold. The issue, as I see it, is that a systematic determination of which lure works best for coyotes is just not feasible. We see a lot of questions that ask which lure or bait is the best. The problem here is that the question itself is flawed because there is no single answer to that question. What works in the sand hills of western Kansas is not necessarily what works along the logging roads of Northern Maine.

More importantly, we focus way too much on lures and baits and far less on location. I'm amazed at just how little we talk about location these days. Comparatively, how many threads on Trapperman have you seen about canine location versus set or lure selection? We're always looking for that secret set or lure that will turn us into a professional-class trapper.

Good lures matter, good sets matter, but none of that makes a hill of beans if you're not on location. And being on location begins with the property you choose all the way down to where you place your lure.

Darn she has more chest hair than me....

Good points, location is the first major building block to success.

OMG THANK you for that link been trying to find it
Wade Ryan !!!

Mr. Otis has a point. I realize it is not fashionable any more but that is one of the reasons a lot of old timers like to prebait an area. Lot to be learned doing that.
mac

I have a different method. I just use one bait & one type of urine. I generally carry a second type of bait and some lure. Sometimes my fresh set after a catch will get something different if I feel it is needed, mostly not needed. It is location location location,

My comments were in the context of the Graves and Boddicker study. For those with established lines, productive locations year after year, and time constraints, messing around with data collection isn’t practical or necessary. But for those just starting out, keeping track of such details (more systematically) can help with the learning curve. It’s also useful for those who like to test different lures season after season; I like to crunch numbers.

Yes the lure use to have more of a rotted fish smell with a skunk undertone. It is still somewhat the same but definitely different smelling than it was in the 80s. Might be my nose getting older though. Lol
Definitely one of the best lures for coyote. They love to bite and or roll on it.