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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: wetdog] #6589547
08/06/19 11:09 PM
08/06/19 11:09 PM
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Lakes Region Indiana
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Originally Posted by wetdog
Originally Posted by loosanarrow
Indiana has a red flag law, and every time Iíve seen it used I was glad law enforcement had that tool. And in each case the person got the guns back. I guess Iím not seeing the big problem, at least the way it used here, which is reasonably and only in cases where someone was claiming that they wanted to kill themselves or someone else. I donít know about you guys, but if someone says to me ďIím going to kill you as soon as I have a chance...Ē, I donít want them to have a gun until they calm down.
And if red flag laws can actually reduce the problem, it is a worthwhile ďgiveĒ, if it is a give, (again we have one and Iíve never seen it used when it should not have been), because the other types of gun control are far more relevant to us law abiding citizens than red flag laws. Donít threaten to go crazy and kill people, donít openly act like you are a violent criminal or about to be one, and it means NOTHING to you. I have a suppressor, and many firearms, carry a pistol on my side every waking hour, and I like Indianaís red flag law.
Go ahead, tear into me, but if one of you guys calls me a liberal or anti-gun, do it to my face or I will call you a coward.

You can give up your freedom a little bit at a time, that's your choice.
Me,they will never take my freedom or my guns. MY COLD DEAD HANDS

Originally Posted by wetdog
Originally Posted by loosanarrow
Indiana has a red flag law, and every time Iíve seen it used I was glad law enforcement had that tool. And in each case the person got the guns back. I guess Iím not seeing the big problem, at least the way it used here, which is reasonably and only in cases where someone was claiming that they wanted to kill themselves or someone else. I donít know about you guys, but if someone says to me ďIím going to kill you as soon as I have a chance...Ē, I donít want them to have a gun until they calm down.
And if red flag laws can actually reduce the problem, it is a worthwhile ďgiveĒ, if it is a give, (again we have one and Iíve never seen it used when it should not have been), because the other types of gun control are far more relevant to us law abiding citizens than red flag laws. Donít threaten to go crazy and kill people, donít openly act like you are a violent criminal or about to be one, and it means NOTHING to you. I have a suppressor, and many firearms, carry a pistol on my side every waking hour, and I like Indianaís red flag law.
Go ahead, tear into me, but if one of you guys calls me a liberal or anti-gun, do it to my face or I will call you a coward.

You can give up your freedom a little bit at a time, that's your choice.
Me,they will never take my freedom or my guns. MY COLD DEAD HANDS


Respectfully sir, if I am doing the things that allow my Sherrif to invoke our red flag law, I hope he does take them away and save innocents from my mentally unstable craze.
And if you donít do anything crazy, like for instance run out in the street in a psychotic rage threatening to shoot neighbors and police, YOU LOSE NO FREEDOM!
But hey go ahead, give the mentally unstable guy your gun, hand it to him just to see if he is serious. Donít want him to lose any freedom, canít have that. As for me, I will help the Sherrif disarm him, and if you really think he has a right to have it and you decide to come to fight that battle and help him keep the guns, cold dead hands it just might have to be!

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589553
08/06/19 11:21 PM
08/06/19 11:21 PM
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I wish it was as simple as you say, and I'm not bashing you at all, just having a conversation. The problem is with red flag laws, a lot are written that allow family, friends, neighbors, sexual partners, LE and pretty much anyone to say your a danger and bam, you have to prove your not. So all it can take is someone getting mad at you and then you have to go through all the hassle and probably spend money, that not everyone has. How is circumventing other Amendments to destroy another justifiable?


Disclaimer: I am currently drunk, yet still confident that this makes sense.
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589556
08/06/19 11:26 PM
08/06/19 11:26 PM
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Did I mention that in Indiana I can carry a loaded long gun in my lap and drive around legally? Did I mention that if you do not have a felony conviction or a current felony indictment or domestic violence conviction you WILL be issued a handgun permit? Without any training requirements? Or that my local Sherrif shook my hand and said ďhave fun with that thing!Ē when he approved my suppressor paperwork?
No lack of gun freedom here at the state level. Red flag law means nothing to me. Nothing. Other than safety from mentally ill people who are threatening violence....

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589558
08/06/19 11:30 PM
08/06/19 11:30 PM
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Abuse of the red flag would be a bad bad scene, and it could happen. It just doesnít happen here. It might in less firearm friendly states.
I should say, as it is written and applied here in IN, I like it.
Iíve not lost any freedom or been negatively impacted, and it has taken guns out of the hands of people who were clearly in no condition to use good judgement with them.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589562
08/06/19 11:35 PM
08/06/19 11:35 PM
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Iím not bashing either. We donít live in the same ďgun attitude environment ď, so in your state it might end up being a circus of abuse. It is not abused in IN, and I like the law.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589566
08/06/19 11:48 PM
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The problem with Red Flag Laws is that democrats and other politicians will use them as a tool to confiscate guns from progressively more people, by tweaking their definition of what makes someone a risk, thus taking away guns from law abiding people, who pose little risk of using a firearm to commit an act of violence. It is a dangerously, slippery slope.

I can easily foresee when all people who have been diagnosed with any mental illness, including depression, bipolar disorder, mania, post traumatic stress and treatable schizophrenia have their firearms taken away and destroyed. I can also easily foresee when anyone who says anything against a minority, a woman, a religious minority or an immigrant also has their firearms confiscated and destroyed. I further can forsee that someone who criticizes the government or a political party will eventually make the Red Flag List.

Keith

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589567
08/06/19 11:49 PM
08/06/19 11:49 PM
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So what your saying is because there is a law written and passed that makes it OK for the police to come into my house and basically steal my guns that's OK.
The law says Innocent until proven guilty.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional and theft

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589574
08/07/19 12:07 AM
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So to be clear, if your neighbor who has been acting out of character and howling at the moon starts telling the other neighbors that you are the Devil, and God is telling him he has to shoot you with his deer rifle or you will destroy the world (what Iím saying is he is gone psychotic), you feel that until he actually shoots you, we must afford him the same gun rights as a guy walking his dog, smiling and saying hi as he walks by with a pistol on his side?
That is to ask, you actually think someone should be allowed to act on threats made under delusional psychosis and shoot someone before guns can be taken away?
My dad says that when he was in school there were extra curricular shooting clubs. And school shootings were unheard of. We have a sickness, a problem, and is not the guns. But not letting people who are threatening to shoot up the school have a gun for a while, or until they convince a judge they are safe, just might be part of a solution. And I repeat, it has been in effect here for years, and has no impact on my gun rights.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: wetdog] #6589579
08/07/19 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wetdog
So what your saying is because there is a law written and passed that makes it OK for the police to come into my house and basically steal my guns that's OK.
The law says Innocent until proven guilty.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional and theft



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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: loosanarrow] #6589587
08/07/19 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by loosanarrow
So to be clear, if your neighbor who has been acting out of character and howling at the moon starts telling the other neighbors that you are the Devil, and God is telling him he has to shoot you with his deer rifle or you will destroy the world (what Iím saying is he is gone psychotic), you feel that until he actually shoots you, we must afford him the same gun rights as a guy walking his dog, smiling and saying hi as he walks by with a pistol on his side?
That is to ask, you actually think someone should be allowed to act on threats made under delusional psychosis and shoot someone before guns can be taken away?
My dad says that when he was in school there were extra curricular shooting clubs. And school shootings were unheard of. We have a sickness, a problem, and is not the guns. But not letting people who are threatening to shoot up the school have a gun for a while, or until they convince a judge they are safe, just might be part of a solution. And I repeat, it has been in effect here for years, and has no impact on my gun rights.



A direct threat is already unlawful


A red flag law allows your b____ ex wife to make one simple phone call , and your local police will come steal all your guns . Truth never enters into the equation

Last edited by AntiGov; 08/07/19 12:33 AM.

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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589589
08/07/19 12:27 AM
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If the Red Flag laws are handled as they should be I don't have much trouble with them. However, with the democrats making everything political, it will not be handled the way it should.

I fully expect that if these laws are enacted that the time is coming when every gun owner will be considered a threat to society.


Garryowen

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: KeithC] #6589590
08/07/19 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by KeithC
The problem with Red Flag Laws is that democrats and other politicians will use them as a tool to confiscate guns from progressively more people, by tweaking their definition of what makes someone a risk, thus taking away guns from law abiding people, who pose little risk of using a firearm to commit an act of violence. It is a dangerously, slippery slope.

I can easily foresee when all people who have been diagnosed with any mental illness, including depression, bipolar disorder, mania, post traumatic stress and treatable schizophrenia have their firearms taken away and destroyed. I can also easily foresee when anyone who says anything against a minority, a woman, a religious minority or an immigrant also has their firearms confiscated and destroyed. I further can forsee that someone who criticizes the government or a political party will eventually make the Red Flag List.

Keith



Agree 100%


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589599
08/07/19 12:52 AM
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Direct threat may be unlawful in some states, but does that person still have a right to own guns in the face of that crime? If not no red flag law needed. Because there is a defacto red flag law - or at least that crime can be used as one, which seems to be the same effect. Indiana needed one apparently, and Iíve never even heard of it being abused. Do you suppose arresting the psychotic guy and making him post bail will make him straighten up and be less of a threat? It would me, but then Iím not a psychotic guy who has spent the last month convincing myself the devil next door needs shot. A night in jail might not help that guy, in fact I dare say he might be even more sure that the devil who got him arrested needs to be shot. I understand the concerns, but seriously it is not abused here, so I will narrow it down and just go with the fact that I like the law here in IN because we are a very pro gun state, and Iím not worried about it being abused. No elected Sherrif will last long around here doing that.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: bucksnbears] #6589600
08/07/19 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bucksnbears
I don't believe all this mental health crap.
Mostly lib parents being p???sies


Me either.
Itís not humane to lock up a mentally ill person.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589601
08/07/19 01:07 AM
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There are 1001 ways for red flag abuse


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: wetdog] #6589602
08/07/19 01:23 AM
08/07/19 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wetdog
So what your saying is because there is a law written and passed that makes it OK for the police to come into my house and basically steal my guns that's OK.
The law says Innocent until proven guilty.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional and theft

Of course not.

Unless you are obviously deranged and making threats.
Then yes, I think your guns should be taken, for a period of time that allows due process to determine if you actually are a threat. Before you actually shoot an innocent person. And that is not stealing, that is removing/confiscating for a limited time.

And it is reasonable. I would take your guns myself if you were stating a psychotic induced threat to me or my family, and are obviously not capable of sane reason. Yep, I would ďtheftĒ your guns for that ( itís clearly not theft, Iíve read the law, but just for the sake of argument we will call it theft), because it makes me feel less bad than just killing you first to be sure. And involves less jail time for me if I get caught. But Iím not waiting till you actually shoot me or mine to act. If the role was reversed, what would you do? Again I understand concerns about abuse, but it can work and be reasonable. I know because it does here. But perhaps my comfort is enhanced because it has never affected me in any way. Indiana does not abuse it, and when it is not abused it is a good thing. And if it is unconstitutional, it needs to be addressed by Congress to change that. Because only a fool would give a gun or leave a gun with a clearly psychotic person.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589604
08/07/19 01:35 AM
08/07/19 01:35 AM
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Champaign County, Ohio.
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Originally Posted by loosanarrow
I like the law here in IN because we are a very pro gun state, and Iím not worried about it being abused.


Have you paid any attention at all to what South Bend, Indiana mayor, Pete Buttigieg, the presidential candidate from Indiana, has been calling for in regards to gun laws? Buttigieg claims to be pro Second Amendment and yet calls for registration of all firearms, the ban on private ownership of semi automatic rifles and their confiscation and destruction.

Have you looked at the statistics for whose guns have been confiscated and destroyed in Indiana? It seems wrong to take and destroy well over 70% of the people's guns for such things as feeling suicidal at one point in their lives or being drunk and saying something stupid.

Keith



Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589605
08/07/19 01:47 AM
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Here's an example of what happens in "pro gun Indiana", when a man acts admittedly strangely and then goes 6 years without any incidents and is judged safe by many doctors.

"Man seeks return of 51 guns taken under Ďred flag lawí
February 27, 2019 | Katie Stancombe
An Indianapolis man is again petitioning for the return of his 51 confiscated firearms after a judge previously determined him dangerous due to his bizarre behavior near a Bloomington bar. But an Indiana Court of Appeals panel Tuesday seemed to struggle with the argument that he was still dangerous six years later.

In 2012, Robert Redington was found across the street from Kilroyís Sports Bar looking through a range-finder at the place where missing Indiana University student Lauren Spierer was last seen. Bloomington police detained Redington for mental observation after he told them he could see spirits and that he was investigating Spiererís disappearance.

A Monroe Circuit Court judge then ordered Redingtonís 51 guns and ammunition be confiscated after determining him to be ďdangerousĒ under I.C. ß 35-47-14-1(a)(2)(B). Known as Indianaís ďred flag law,Ē the statute allows law enforcement to take possession of firearms, pending formal hearings, from people who are found to be statutorily ďdangerous."

Redington initially challenged the confiscation to the Indiana Court of Appeals, which affirmed the trial courtís order in a divided August 2013 decision. Justices of the Indiana Supreme Court likewise denied Redingtonís petition to transfer the case in November 2013. Two years later, Redington again appealed to the trial court for the return of his firearms, but he was denied upon the finding that Redington failed to carry his burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that circumstances had changed since 2012 and that he was no longer dangerous.

During a Tuesday oral argument before an appellate panel consisting of Judges Patricia Riley, James Kirsch and Margret Robb, appellant counsel Guy Relford argued that Redington was never proven to be an imminent risk of personal injury to anyone. Relford noted that in the more than five years since the first hearing took place, Redington had been evaluated by three certified doctors and psychiatrists, all of whom found him not dangerous.

ďYet, despite the state not offering a bit of evidence at that hearing, specifically no expert testimony that refuted the expert evaluations and conclusions of the mental healthcare practitioners who had observed and examined Mr. Redington, the trial court still rejected all of those professional opinions and found him to be dangerous,Ē Relford said. ďWe think that is clearly erroneous.Ē

Relford argued that the issue before the trial court was whether Redington was dangerous at the time of the 2018 hearing, not whether he was found to be dangerous at the initial hearing in 2012. He further argued that Redington was not found to have a mental illness under the statute, but rather that the issue at hand was whether Redington had a current propensity for emotionally unstable conduct.

Story Continues Below

Relford added anyone could be potentially dangerous in the future, but no one is able to predict that without speculation. When asked whether his argument would be different if Redington had asked for his guns back six months after the initial confiscation, Relford said the current argument for their return was substantially stronger as to the amount of time that had passed.

ďWhatís changed is the six years since that initial hearing, were any prediction that Mr. Redington was ever going to be dangerous have not come to pass,Ē Relford said. ďHow long do we have to wait?Ē

Opposing state counsel Ellen Meilaender said that Redingtonís potential dangerousness could be quantified by the way it was given credence originally in 2012, arguing that the statute did not require Redington to be dangerous within a set period of time.

However, the appellate panel questioned Meilaenderís argument, noting that the initial evidence was several years old and that no new evidence was presented as to whether Redingtonís formally diagnosed psychiatric conditions had resulted in any dangerous or violent conduct, or would in the future.

ďHe could have gone to counseling and had somebody say he's loonier than he was before,Ē one judge said. ďI mean, the best evidence is nothing's happened, and we've got five more years, so how do you say nothing's changed, that it's still operative?Ē

Meilaender then struggled to agree with the appellate panel regarding testimony of medical professionals on Redingtonís behalf who found he was no longer dangerous, and ultimately requested the Court of Appeals affirm the trial courtís judgment in Robert Redington v. State of Indiana, 18A-CR-00950."

Keith

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589606
08/07/19 01:54 AM
08/07/19 01:54 AM
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One of the very few studies on Red Flag Confiscations finds that 95% of the time, in the case of a potential suicide, the person whose guns are confiscated and over 70% of the time destroyed, was at no risk of harming themselves.

http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/04/15/JAAPL.003835-19

At what percent risk is confiscating and destroying personal property, which a person has a constitutional right to, acceptable?

Keith

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589608
08/07/19 02:09 AM
08/07/19 02:09 AM
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there are people running for office in every state with anti gun views. And probably mayors in every state similar. He has better chance being elected president than govorner of IN, IMO. We arenít exactly known for being liberal Democrats. But they are around, no doubt about that.

Do you have a link to this 70% of peopleís guns being taken and destroyed because they said something stupid?

Cause I live here, and I have never seen it abused. I know and meet a lot of people, and Iíve not known anyone who has had their guns taken OR destroyed. Itís like you are just saying random things, trying to confuse or distract from the points being discussed. Man, 70% is a lot of guns from a lot of people in THIS state! Not buying that without clarification or proof. Not for a second. Maybe you meant 70% of the people who had them taken away due to red flag had them eventually destroyed? Yeah, those are probably mostly the ones I DONT WANT HAVING GUNS EITHER! I tend to agree with our conservative judges around here, and if they say someone is too crazy to have a gun, and the Sherrif flagged them for making threats, I support that. The other 30% got due process and got the guns back. Which means that 70% of the time a judge agreed with the Sherrif. Not a perfect record, but not bad either, especially when the ones who were wrongfully flagged were given the guns back. Iím just kind of scratching my head, wondering why people donít like this law. Again, it is not abused here where I live, and I understand how it could be abused. But when it is not abused it is a good thing.

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