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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: loosanarrow] #6589882
08/07/19 12:24 PM
08/07/19 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by loosanarrow
I do understand what you are saying Keith. I hope you can understand that I see our red flag law being used reasonably.
I agree that no crime has been committed when the guns are removed. But I also see that without this tool, at least in Indiana, you have to wait for the crime to be committed; and when that crime would be shooting me or my family, and someone is clearly not acting sane and rational, and saying they want to kill me, don’t want to wait for that. And I’m not sure it is a crime to act psychotic and admit to wanting to kill someone. Maybe that’s the law Indiana could have went with, make it illegal to act psychotic and say you want to kill someone... Or maybe some think I should have to wait till he shoots and hope he misses? I don’t know what the answer is. But I’m good with our law the way it is being implemented around here 4 hours north of Bloomington.
May I ask, what would you do in Ohio in this scenario- crazy person clearly not acting right, saying he thinks has to kill you because you are a demon? I know Ohio can pink slip someone for 72 hours at hospital, but what about when they are released? Do you feel that you must take your chance and hope he doesn’t shoot or misses if he does? Is it a crime to do that in Ohio and can he be arrested? I’ve never asked my Ohio police buddy that so I don’t know. What is is your favorite way to handle a situation like that?


My arguement to that would be...........trying to fix what's been happening, focus more on new gun purchases not on red flag laws. Just going from memory here, but it seems to me that just about every mass shooter in the last 10 years purchased their gun shortly before going postal.
Only 1 or 2 come to mind that had their guns for years.
So they should be looking at where they (the gov't) are not doing their job according to laws we alre4ady have regarding background checks.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589888
08/07/19 12:32 PM
08/07/19 12:32 PM
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Oregon
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I think that the idea around the red flag laws are a bad thing. There is too much room for abuse, and as catch22 pointed out those who are threatening should be evaluated individually and dealt with appropriately. The responsibillity of teachers, parents, and other aquantances to not sweep those threats under the rug or ignore them should be taken seriously.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: danny clifton] #6589921
08/07/19 01:03 PM
08/07/19 01:03 PM
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Lakes Region Indiana
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Quote
loosanarrow:

saying they want to kill me,


that is a crime. you don't need red flag laws. people go to prison in ks for terroristic threats. red flag laws allow a persons guns to be taken when NO CRIME IS COMITTED. just like nics insta check it is worse than stupid to think it will make your family safer



Well as long as saying you want to kill someone is a crime, no red flag is needed. Because that law does the same thing by making it a crime. So now the thought and speech is a crime, not a red flag.


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589935
08/07/19 01:16 PM
08/07/19 01:16 PM
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williamsburg ks
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what is a crime is making a threat. that doesn't violate free speech any more than making armed robbery a crime violates the 2nd.

I know a guy who got time here about 25 years ago for leaving threats on his estranged wifes answering machine. now he is a felon and can not legally own a firearm. the charge as I remember it was making a terroristic threat


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: danny clifton] #6589944
08/07/19 01:30 PM
08/07/19 01:30 PM
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loosanarrow Offline
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I’
Originally Posted by danny clifton
what is a crime is making a threat. that doesn't violate free speech any more than making armed robbery a crime violates the 2nd.

I know a guy who got time here about 25 years ago for leaving threats on his estranged wifes answering machine. now he is a felon and can not legally own a firearm. the charge as I remember it was making a terroristic threat


That works then. I don’t think Indiana had any law against making a threat, so our legislators chose to go red flag route. The goal is to keep a psychotic person who is threatening violence from actually committing that violence. Making that illegal works, but then it seems to me like you are criminalizing thought and speech - and I’m fine with that in some cases. Keeping them in jail is way better than just taking the guns and leaving them free. If Indiana has done that, officer Laird might still be alive. I’m not sure why our legislators chose red flag instead of criminalizing. But either way, I recommend not giving or leaving guns with a person who is stating they want to kill you. I like the jail option better, can’t shoot me from jail, but can find another way or another gun if not in jail.


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589948
08/07/19 01:41 PM
08/07/19 01:41 PM
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Lakes Region Indiana
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Indiana also has no law against acting like you are going to hurt someone. No assault without an actual contact punch for example. At least that’s what I’ve been told by a lawyer. Each state is different. I’m telling you guys straight - our red flag law does not affect my or any of my many gun toting friends’ gun rights. That’s because we aren’t doing stupid stuff and acting crazy, and our Sherrif’s are not abusing it. Nothing is perfect though, any law can be abused, and it happens.


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589951
08/07/19 01:47 PM
08/07/19 01:47 PM
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williamsburg ks
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I believe you were lied to. its not uncommon for L.E. to not do their job. Same with prosecutors.

https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-45-2-1.html


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589955
08/07/19 01:52 PM
08/07/19 01:52 PM
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OH
Catch22 Offline OP
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If any individual is deemed to unstable to possess firearms then that person is too dangerous to be out on the streets, period.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6589989
08/07/19 02:42 PM
08/07/19 02:42 PM
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I think I was told that before this was amended (around 1980 or a little before). Thanks for the link, I know the lawyer and I will ask her about that. Doubt she was lying at the time, she is a friend not my lawyer, and laws change. That section has been amended many times since 2003. It makes me wonder if the Indiana legislators wanted a less-than-criminal option. Because again, it just is not affecting anyone I know. And I know a lot of Hoosier gun nuts! But of course other states might be different.
With President Trump supporting red flag laws, I predict that it is going to happen, so we better start participating in the process and doing our best to ensure the laws are written in a way that makes them difficult to abuse and only applicable.
As gun rights supporters, we need to do our best to be part of a solution and promote safe gun ownership, because to not do that will make it easy for the other side to portray us as extremists who value guns more than public safety. And that can be used to defeat us at the polls. I do feel that mental health is a huge part of the equation. No sane person shoots up a school. Let’s talk about ways we can help reduce this kind of thing. Because right now, it is not looking good for gun rights, and we can all agree that we want to preserve our right to bear arms.


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590065
08/07/19 04:44 PM
08/07/19 04:44 PM
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Red Flag laws criminalize predicted behavior. Can the government deprive a citizen of a constitutional right based solely on a prediction? Can the government take someone's firearms without due process PRIOR to the taking of said firearms? Anyone who supports gun rights should be very cautious in supporting Red Flag Laws.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590090
08/07/19 05:30 PM
08/07/19 05:30 PM
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I may have missed a reply that has already made this point if so forgive me. The OP stated that in all the times that guns were confiscated using the red flag laws that the persons all got their guns back. If this is the case in my opinion that means the confiscation was unwarranted or just plan wrong. Sorry we took your property, uh, you can have it back now. That was just stupid and should be illegal under the fourth amendment.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590115
08/07/19 06:20 PM
08/07/19 06:20 PM
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Sorry it wasn't the OP that posted about Indiana red flag laws working it was loosanarrow's post.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Gerald Schmitt] #6590127
08/07/19 06:39 PM
08/07/19 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerald Schmitt
Red Flag laws criminalize predicted behavior. Can the government deprive a citizen of a constitutional right based solely on a prediction? Can the government take someone's firearms without due process PRIOR to the taking of said firearms? Anyone who supports gun rights should be very cautious in supporting Red Flag Laws.


Completely aside from guns this can be applied in so many ways. Let's say we lock up men on a temporary hold for looking to long at a lady to prevent rape. Taking away vehicles because you've been known to bend an elbow. I'm sure whatever they want to stop in the future they'll be able to justify.


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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: loosanarrow] #6590223
08/07/19 08:28 PM
08/07/19 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by loosanarrow
Indiana also has no law against acting like you are going to hurt someone. No assault without an actual contact punch for example. At least that’s what I’ve been told by a lawyer. Each state is different. I’m telling you guys straight - our red flag law does not affect my or any of my many gun toting friends’ gun rights. That’s because we aren’t doing stupid stuff and acting crazy, and our Sherrif’s are not abusing it. Nothing is perfect though, any law can be abused, and it happens.



Only a fool would trust the government ....................





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Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590232
08/07/19 08:41 PM
08/07/19 08:41 PM
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N/E Il. NOT Chicago!!
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Define False Flag: A horrific STAGED, EVENT blamed on a political enemy and used as a pretext to start a war or enact draconian laws in the name of national security.
Thinking back on our history, my blood begins to run cold.
Search the subject of crisis actors. It's interesting...and remember that the term "conspiracy theory" was invented by the C_A to keep people from asking questions.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: AntiGov] #6590237
08/07/19 08:48 PM
08/07/19 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AntiGov
Only a fool would trust the government ...................


It would be nice to be able to lay your head down on a pillow at night and go to sleep thinking they could be.

Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590350
08/07/19 10:53 PM
08/07/19 10:53 PM
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Always wondered what Don Knotts was doing these days.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: AntiGov] #6590421
08/08/19 12:32 AM
08/08/19 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AntiGov
Originally Posted by loosanarrow
Indiana also has no law against acting like you are going to hurt someone. No assault without an actual contact punch for example. At least that’s what I’ve been told by a lawyer. Each state is different. I’m telling you guys straight - our red flag law does not affect my or any of my many gun toting friends’ gun rights. That’s because we aren’t doing stupid stuff and acting crazy, and our Sherrif’s are not abusing it. Nothing is perfect though, any law can be abused, and it happens.



Only a fool would trust the government ....................





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I agree 100%.

What about a government that does trust its citizens with guns? I have a hundgun on my side right now, and every single gun Ive ever wanted (and have managed to find the cash to purchase), I own one. Or more.

But your right, only a fool would blindly trust the government. And only a fool would hand a gun to someone clearly acting crazy. Neither statement says it all, but both are true.


Website www.mgnbd.com
Re: Governor of Ohio news conf on guns & such [Re: Catch22] #6590424
08/08/19 12:34 AM
08/08/19 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Catch22
If any individual is deemed to unstable to possess firearms then that person is too dangerous to be out on the streets, period.


^^^ Who deicides who is unstable? Dangerous is every human.


Advice? Wise men don't need it. Fools won't heed it.
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