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EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? #6591298
08/09/19 01:01 PM
08/09/19 01:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 424
New York
N
nyhuntfish Offline OP
trapper
nyhuntfish  Offline OP
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New York
I didn't find the actual notice, but this is bad right?

https://www.trappersreport.com/stor...s-to-kill-foxes-and-coyotes_892019130018


Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591312
08/09/19 01:38 PM
08/09/19 01:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 17,622
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content
trapper
Law Dog  Online Content
trapper

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Posts: 17,622
Central, SD
M44s have been used for many years nothing new, don't buy into the hype it a very regulate way to control predators in less populated areas.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591329
08/09/19 02:34 PM
08/09/19 02:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,302
B61-12 vicinity, MO
T
TreedaBlackdog Offline
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TreedaBlackdog  Offline
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Posts: 1,302
B61-12 vicinity, MO
Absolutely NOT bad. It is a very effective tool with extremely controlled situational use. I would guess more coyotes and foxes are killed by automobiles in every state as compared to those selectively removed with M44s.

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591342
08/09/19 02:56 PM
08/09/19 02:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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danny clifton  Offline
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williamsburg ks
be a lot easier to catch heavy westerns if they were banned

I think its time to put an end to federal wildlife services. whats the cost per coyote up to now? 7-800 dollars? put a 500 dollar bounty on them nation wide (a hundred would buy a new 4 wd pickup again) and see how many get killed


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591566
08/09/19 07:37 PM
08/09/19 07:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 10,070
Indiana
B
brianmall Offline
trapper
brianmall  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 10,070
Indiana
I wish they would help me out with all these hawks

Last edited by brianmall; 08/09/19 07:38 PM.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591573
08/09/19 07:46 PM
08/09/19 07:46 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 240
Valdosta, GA
zoozoo400 Offline
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zoozoo400  Offline
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Posts: 240
Valdosta, GA
Does the trap have any adverse ecological effects? Aside from death of the targeted animal of course LOL


Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: zoozoo400] #6591603
08/09/19 08:39 PM
08/09/19 08:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,861
Wheaton Ks
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lee steinmeyer Online content
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lee steinmeyer  Online Content
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Posts: 9,861
Wheaton Ks
Originally Posted by zoozoo400
Does the trap have any adverse ecological effects? Aside from death of the targeted animal of course LOL


No! They are a spring loaded devise that throws the cyanyde into the target animals mouth. There it mixes with saliva and causes death very quickly. Very effecient tool that is strickly regulated.


Now officially an old fart
http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Anything can happen when your trappin!
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591613
08/09/19 08:56 PM
08/09/19 08:56 PM
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Posts: 21,034
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Apparently not always into the "target" animals mouth.

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591636
08/09/19 09:31 PM
08/09/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 759
Maine
M
mainer Offline
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Maine
Originally Posted by nyhuntfish
I didn't find the actual notice, but this is bad right?

https://www.trappersreport.com/stor...s-to-kill-foxes-and-coyotes_892019130018

If you came across this article from the Guardian, a UK publication, without any background about M44s, and the first thing you saw was the title "Trump administration authorizes 'cyanide bombs' to kill wild animals" then yeah this would be bad. And that's the point.

It's the bread and butter of the animal rights movement and their networks across the globe. As the Guardian self-righteously admits: "in our natural world, we refuse to turn away from the climate catastrophe and species extinction. For The Guardian, reporting on the environment is a priority. We give reporting on climate, nature and pollution the prominence it deserves..."

Their source for this article is the Center for Biological Diversity here in the US, a major pain in the arse for trappers and hunters. In short, it's a hit piece spoon fed to the Guardian almost verbatim from the Center for Biological Diversity. They have money, connections and resources that we don't.

Note: I can't and won't link to the August 7th press release from the Center for Biological Diversity because it violates forum rules, but you can look it up yourselves if you wish.

Last edited by mainer; 08/09/19 10:03 PM.

"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591638
08/09/19 09:34 PM
08/09/19 09:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 164
Oregon
H
H2ORat Offline
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H2ORat  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
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Oregon
Too many non-targets where i live -- not a huge fan. Usda in our area seems to have this as their only response

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: lee steinmeyer] #6591653
08/09/19 09:58 PM
08/09/19 09:58 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 240
Valdosta, GA
zoozoo400 Offline
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zoozoo400  Offline
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Valdosta, GA
Originally Posted by lee steinmeyer
Originally Posted by zoozoo400
Does the trap have any adverse ecological effects? Aside from death of the targeted animal of course LOL


No! They are a spring loaded devise that throws the cyanyde into the target animals mouth. There it mixes with saliva and causes death very quickly. Very effecient tool that is strickly regulated.


I can see why it's strictly reg'd. Clever idea, though... I can't say I'm a fan, but every tool has it's place!


Feel free to not believe in it.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591735
08/10/19 12:50 AM
08/10/19 12:50 AM
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Posts: 514
eastern washington
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BillyTraps Offline
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eastern washington
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M44_(cyanide_device)

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: danny clifton] #6591741
08/10/19 01:32 AM
08/10/19 01:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,645
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
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Alaska and Washington State
Originally Posted by danny clifton
be a lot easier to catch heavy westerns if they were banned

I think its time to put an end to federal wildlife services. whats the cost per coyote up to now? 7-800 dollars? put a 500 dollar bounty on them nation wide (a hundred would buy a new 4 wd pickup again) and see how many get killed

x2!!!


My life is better than your vacation
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: lee steinmeyer] #6591816
08/10/19 07:55 AM
08/10/19 07:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,737
Henderson, N.Y. Jefferson Co.
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walleyed Offline
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walleyed  Offline
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Henderson, N.Y. Jefferson Co.
Originally Posted by lee steinmeyer
Originally Posted by zoozoo400
Does the trap have any adverse ecological effects? Aside from death of the targeted animal of course LOL


No! They are a spring loaded devise that throws the cyanyde into the target animals mouth. There it mixes with saliva and causes death very quickly. Very effecient tool that is strickly regulated.


I'm not against the use of M-44's, cyanide guns, coyote getters, grab & die rigs, or whatever.

But,

What about secondary mortality of non-targets

which feed upon the carcasses of animals killed by these devices ?

Seems to me that the cyanide poisoning & subsequent death of non-targets

which scavenge the carcasses of the original target were a major factor

for cyanide guns, etc being outlawed by federal legislation in the 1970's.

Just playing devil's advocate here so don't bite my head off.

w

Last edited by walleyed; 08/10/19 08:15 PM.

Member: New York State Trappers Association,
Oswego County Trappers,
Jefferson Co. Fur Harvesters.

I Support Non-Resident Trapping Nation-Wide

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591826
08/10/19 08:19 AM
08/10/19 08:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
trapper
danny clifton  Offline
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williamsburg ks
Cyanide guns have never been outlawed so far as I know. I know some were being used mid 70's in Colorado. Those were fired with a 38 case and the cyanide in place of the bullet. They have been used with a spring for a long while. Last I knew the guy setting them not only had to put out signs he had to have an antidote kit in reach while setting them. Had to pass an applicators test. There are rules. Like private property only. Guys set them and they don't get checked for weeks sometimes. Its not uncommon to find an old one that's been in place for years. I could go on about some of the predator control programs run by usda in particular, and some counties, but there is no point. Most people think if its the government doing it then they know what they are doing. Professionals. Wildlife biologists.

That's why the cost per coyote killed, or beaver killed, to the taxpayer, is in the several hundreds of dollars. Maybe thousands by now. Some of you computer literate guys should be able to look up cost of programs dived by the number of animals killed.


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591834
08/10/19 08:34 AM
08/10/19 08:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,861
Wheaton Ks
L
lee steinmeyer Online content
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lee steinmeyer  Online Content
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Wheaton Ks
My dad used cyanyde guns from well before I was born in 47. I grew up with them, and one day one went off and shot a pretty little 38 sized hole in the center of dads palm. He was a better part of a half mile away when it happened, and walked back to the house, where mom had a fit about taking him to the doc. Dad said, "I just walked a half mile from where it happened, if it was gonna kill me, it would have already happened"!

As for other things dying off the carcasses of the coyotes, I never saw one shred of evidence. I skinned many animals killed with getter guns, and believe that most of this is false info, designed by those that don't believe we should harm a blade of grass, but go mow their lawns every three days!


Now officially an old fart
http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Anything can happen when your trappin!
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591862
08/10/19 09:41 AM
08/10/19 09:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 17,622
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content
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Law Dog  Online Content
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Central, SD
Might some confusion between cyanide (single use) and the problems they had with 1080 poison for lacing whole carcasses! 1080 is still used but is limited to sheep collars as far as I know, again single use collars.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: danny clifton] #6591892
08/10/19 10:21 AM
08/10/19 10:21 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 960
Garden,Michigan
B
Buck (Zandra) Online content
trapper
Buck (Zandra)  Online Content
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Posts: 960
Garden,Michigan
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Cyanide guns have never been outlawed so far as I know. I know some were being used mid 70's in Colorado. Those were fired with a 38 case and the cyanide in place of the bullet. They have been used with a spring for a long while. Last I knew the guy setting them not only had to put out signs he had to have an antidote kit in reach while setting them. Had to pass an applicators test. There are rules. Like private property only. Guys set them and they don't get checked for weeks sometimes. Its not uncommon to find an old one that's been in place for years. I could go on about some of the predator control programs run by usda in particular, and some counties, but there is no point. Most people think if its the government doing it then they know what they are doing. Professionals. Wildlife biologists.

That's why the cost per coyote killed, or beaver killed, to the taxpayer, is in the several hundreds of dollars. Maybe thousands by now. Some of you computer literate guys should be able to look up cost of programs dived by the number of animals killed.
Your charge that sometimes they don't get checked for weeks is the same charge they make on traps.Apparently ,only govt programs are open to these charges.Privately run programs apparently are all above reproach.

Last edited by Buck (Zandra); 08/10/19 11:09 AM. Reason: clarify

Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: walleyed] #6591897
08/10/19 10:26 AM
08/10/19 10:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,000
SE WI
DuxDawg Offline
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DuxDawg  Offline
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Posts: 1,000
SE WI
Originally Posted by walleyed
What about secondary mortality of non-targets which feed upon the carcasses of these devices ?Seems to me that the cyanide poisoning & subsequent death of non-targets which scavenge the carcasses of the original target were a major factor for cyanide guns, etc being outlawed by federal legislation in the 1970's.


Could you be any more clueless????


Please look into things before skying your colossal stupidity.

Prussic acid aka B-17 aka Laetrile aka hydrogen cyanide is a NATURALLY OCCURRING organic compound that DISSIPATES AT 78.1F. It is not persistent in the environment and poses no long term risks.

Almost like those who came up with the M-44's knew what they were doing. Unlike the majority of people commenting on the internet these days...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

https://www.britannica.com/science/hydrogen-cyanide#ref240237


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
"We are fast approaching... rule by brute force."
-Ayn Rand
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: Law Dog] #6591905
08/10/19 10:44 AM
08/10/19 10:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,854
Co.-Wy. part time AK.
W
wy.wolfer Offline
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Co.-Wy. part time AK.
Originally Posted by Law Dog
Might some confusion between cyanide (single use) and the problems they had with 1080 poison for lacing whole carcasses! 1080 is still used but is limited to sheep collars as far as I know, again single use collars.

Unfortunately there are more than a few sheepmen here in the west that still have several lifetimes supply of 1080. Big sheep operation just to the west of me that still uses it regularly and I find dead coyotes laying on the property we hunt and manage.

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591944
08/10/19 12:03 PM
08/10/19 12:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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were some ranchers in N.D. still using 1080 in the late 90's.


Buck they don't get checked for weeks. They are lethal. They are all on private property now. Or at least they are supposed to be. Just like snares, they don't all get picked back up either.


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6591971
08/10/19 12:42 PM
08/10/19 12:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 17,622
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content
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Law Dog  Online Content
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Would not want to get caught using it that's for sure!


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592022
08/10/19 03:08 PM
08/10/19 03:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 21,034
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Cyanide is a much more humane death than strychnine.
Strychnine is banned in most places because of the prolonged painful death and its insidiousness to other animals after the fact.

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592034
08/10/19 03:24 PM
08/10/19 03:24 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,941
michigan,USA
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seniortrap Offline
trapper
seniortrap  Offline
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,941
michigan,USA
Maybe some should be set where there are WOLF problems!


Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers

"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction."
"After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592046
08/10/19 03:53 PM
08/10/19 03:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
That poison garbage was outlawed here on may 10th 1849 for killing wolves.Too many other valuable furbearers were destroyed along with the wolves,
marten and foxes being the ones mentioned in the statute.

Last edited by Boco; 08/10/19 03:55 PM.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592056
08/10/19 04:05 PM
08/10/19 04:05 PM
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Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
1080 wasn't around in 1849. Its also k9 specific. Unlike cyanide though its not quick. Im not a fan of tax dollar control programs but those cyanide guns have to be pulled to discharge. coyote doesn't get more than 10 feet 99% of the time. 1080 is slow and ugly


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592057
08/10/19 04:08 PM
08/10/19 04:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 21,034
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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Boco  Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
The statute specified "strychnine and all other poisons".
No poisoning of wild furbearers/predators here since 1849.

Last edited by Boco; 08/10/19 04:10 PM.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592065
08/10/19 04:17 PM
08/10/19 04:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 17,622
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content
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Law Dog  Online Content
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Central, SD
FYI some animals it has less of a affect on like large animal that the body mass that it greater then the small amount of cyanide that the M44 puts out. The M44 can keep working for weeks and will lump up after long periods of time. A shoulder blade bone is often placed over the gitter to protect it from the weather longer then it not being covered.

The capsule is about the thickness of a pinky finger as long as the nail and has a relatively small amount of powder as most of it is plastic. The spring is stout a setting tool is needed, no powder on the new M44s the early ones used a .38 brass with a primer to shoot the powder. Like said the powder hits the saliva and becomes a gas that is the "danger time" breathing is not recommended! When pulled they are pointed away from the user and shot in a safe direction.

Don't know of any humans that ever died from M44. Accidents have happened if I remember right they carry amyl nitrate in case of a accident to counter the poison.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592084
08/10/19 05:17 PM
08/10/19 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 518
Oregon
S
ScottPhillips Offline
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ScottPhillips  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 518
Oregon
Home work would do a lot of good for some of you. Experience is better than most opinions. This is sounding like politicians of today. Talk to people who have used them to get the information to build your own knowledge. Very effective tool, they are not a bomb, there is very little noise to them. (Spring Loaded) as has been said)

Scott

Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592088
08/10/19 05:20 PM
08/10/19 05:20 PM
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southern oregon cascades
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dirtydogtrapping Offline
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southern oregon cascades


Violator 7 smells like Heaven!
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6592114
08/10/19 05:58 PM
08/10/19 05:58 PM
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Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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danny clifton  Offline
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williamsburg ks
I wish somebody would post just what each coyote aphis kills costs taxpayers. I found where some hogs were more than 10 grand each and some wolves were almost 5 grand each.


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6593801
08/13/19 10:55 AM
08/13/19 10:55 AM
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Posts: 424
New York
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nyhuntfish Offline OP
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New York


Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6593922
08/13/19 02:42 PM
08/13/19 02:42 PM
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Maine
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mainer Offline
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mainer  Offline
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Maine
Originally Posted by nyhuntfish

Yes, and again, this came about from a lawsuit filed in January of this year by the Center for Biological Diversity. The "agreement" they reached goes further than just banning M-44s -- see the snippet of the full "agreement" below.

The larger issue here is not whether you agree with the control methods of APHIS but with the organizations behind these court decisions, which are spreading like crazy. Does this have an immediate and direct impact on trappers in Wyoming or elsewhere? No! But these decisions and actions will have an effect when such litigation reaches our doorstep if not before. We're all part of the broader food chain here....

[Linked Image]


"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6593939
08/13/19 03:15 PM
08/13/19 03:15 PM
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Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
they are still used on private property, they have been in continuous use since they were invented.

so whats the cost per coyote killed by the feds? how about hogs and beaver?


ban gun free zones
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: danny clifton] #6594291
08/14/19 12:15 AM
08/14/19 12:15 AM
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Posts: 3,882
Virginia
5
52Carl Offline
trapper
52Carl  Offline
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5

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Posts: 3,882
Virginia
Originally Posted by danny clifton
they are still used on private property, they have been in continuous use since they were invented.

so whats the cost per coyote killed by the feds? how about hogs and beaver?

The only pertinent question is how much private sector money was saved by the actions of the feds (APHIS)?
They don't indiscriminately start killing coyotes and beavers. Damage to livestock or damage caused by beavers (DOT) is assessed, a monetary agreement is created and signed by the livestock owner, livestock association or DOT, and the work gets done. If it doesn't make financial sense to the livestock producers, or DOTs, they would stop signing up for it.
Could private trappers do this kind of work? Sure, but the logistics are not there. You need a widespread organized effort of many people to cover the vast areas of coverage for these types of issues. Private trappers don't have that. If they did, the livestock producers, and Departments of Transportation would have them do it all.

Last edited by 52Carl; 08/14/19 12:15 AM.
Re: EPA keeps killing animals with cyanide? [Re: nyhuntfish] #6594325
08/14/19 04:18 AM
08/14/19 04:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
trapper
danny clifton  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,051
williamsburg ks
your funny


ban gun free zones
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