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Re: Climate [Re: white marlin] #6616614
09/14/19 09:34 AM
09/14/19 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,934
SE WI
DuxDawg Offline
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DuxDawg  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,934
SE WI
Originally Posted by white marlin
I feel the same way about non-Christians. as
a Christian, if I end up being wrong...oh, well. no harm, no foul. but if non-Christians are wrong...they end up being eternally separated from God's love.

Amen!


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
"We are fast approaching... rule by brute force."
-Ayn Rand
Re: Climate [Re: James] #6616652
09/14/19 10:30 AM
09/14/19 10:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 13,824
central ohio
madcotrappwr Offline
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madcotrappwr  Offline
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Posts: 13,824
central ohio
Originally Posted by James
110 degrees in Ohio? Okay?

Jim


Thought winter would just go away.


Will my toes ever warm up?

I'm Gonna die with my boots on.

Tim Henry.





Re: Climate [Re: James] #6616666
09/14/19 10:46 AM
09/14/19 10:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
M
mainer Offline
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mainer  Offline
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Posts: 1,076
Maine
Originally Posted by James
I don't mean to be dismissive, but there is no analogy between a criminal trial and global warming.

Your demand for proof of global warming beyond a reasonable doubt is a big risk. What if you're more likely than not going to be wrong?

I suppose there were people on the Titanic who demanded proof beyond a reasonable doubt the ship was sinking.

Jim

Jim, you've committed the pernicious counterfactual fallacy here. It's also a bit like Pascal's Wager by hedging your bets, neither of which are valid argumentative strategies....strictly speaking. But then as a lawyer you know the value of rhetorical strategies. That is until your opponent in the court room recognizes the fallacy and objects, right? grin

You're also conflating different requirements of evidence. The 'beyond a reasonable doubt' threshold is sufficient for legal proceedings but it's not for scientific research. The threshold is much higher in the sciences, at least in theory if not practice.


Your honor, I object! Counsel is speculating about what the risks might be IF the global warming Chicken Littles are correct, thus concluding what my client ought to do based on speculation of what might be the case. Your honor, I submit that we have not yet determined whether the global warming Chicken Littles are correct, which is exactly what this case is all about.

Objection sustained.

Thank you, your honor. You're a smart dude....I owe you one!


"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616869
09/14/19 04:39 PM
09/14/19 04:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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white marlin  Offline
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W

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Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
grin

Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616902
09/14/19 05:33 PM
09/14/19 05:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
G
gryhkl Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
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PA
When something is beyond a reasonable doubt, and important as global warming, shouldn't reasonable measures be taken to lessen it's effects. It certainly should not be dismissed just because it MIGHT not be as bad as we fear.

.....and this does not mean I favor the new green deal.

Last edited by gryhkl; 09/14/19 05:34 PM.
Re: Climate [Re: gryhkl] #6616904
09/14/19 05:34 PM
09/14/19 05:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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OH
Originally Posted by gryhkl
When something is beyond a reasonable doubt, and important as global warming, shouldn't reasonable measures be taken to lessen it's effects. It certainly should not be dismissed just because it MIGHT not be as bad as we fear.

.....and does not mean I favor the new green deal.

NO


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616909
09/14/19 05:36 PM
09/14/19 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,683
PA
G
gryhkl Offline
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PA
Why? The stakes are pretty high.
Could it be that it will not likely effect many of us in our lifetimes?

Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616917
09/14/19 05:42 PM
09/14/19 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
There is nothing in your fictional camp that even comes close to beyond a reasonable doubt. If you believe so, then prove it. My suggestion is to stop embracing the chicken little defense and sit down and actually follow the facts, real facts. And no, I'm not going to be your B, do it yourself for the love. Are you receiving payment from some liberal arts school to make really stupid post and record the findings. grin


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616919
09/14/19 05:43 PM
09/14/19 05:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
W
white marlin Offline
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white marlin  Offline
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W

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
but what if YOU'RE wrong, grackle?

you (okay, perhaps not YOU, but your side) are asking us to make MAJOR changes to our lifestyle, based on "might", or "maybe".

the stakes ARE high!

That's why the level of proof (before drastic action is taken) is so imperitive!

Last edited by white marlin; 09/14/19 05:44 PM.
Re: Climate [Re: gryhkl] #6616925
09/14/19 05:47 PM
09/14/19 05:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
M
mainer Offline
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
Originally Posted by gryhkl
When something is beyond a reasonable doubt, and important as global warming, shouldn't reasonable measures be taken to lessen it's effects. It certainly should not be dismissed just because it MIGHT not be as bad as we fear.

Pascal's Wager

The exact same line of reasoning could be used to argued against "lessening it's effects" because of the economic risks and subsequent global catastrophe that would result, especially for third world countries and developing nations that need such resource utilization to build their economies. In short, that line of reasoning is simply flawed from the get go.

Last edited by mainer; 09/14/19 05:58 PM.

"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616937
09/14/19 05:59 PM
09/14/19 05:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
Dan Barnhurst Offline
trapper
Dan Barnhurst  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
God created this earth and gave Adam and all his posterity dominion over it. It was created for our use.

There are no coincidences. HE knew we would need fuel. HE provided coal, oil, natural gas (and yes sun, wind, water, uranium and ??). How brilliant - the energy from the sun / photosynthesis - captured and stored for centuries in natural fuel cells "batteries". God would not have provided fossil fuels if he didn't want us to use them. There are no coincidences!

The real climate deniers are those who deny the earths climate has changed and will continue to change with or without man's influence. As if, of all points in geologic time, this is the climate point we should (and could ----hear GOD laughing uproariously in the background) freeze frame, and maintain it right here! Yah, Right!

We used a trackhoe to dig a hole in a sandstone ledge for our basement. We found dinosaur bones, a sharks tooth and a crocodile tooth. I think the climate has changed a bit in Vernal Utah. No green new deal, or blue new deal, or any other egotistical human deal, would have influenced that change one way or another!

Just like we can freeze frame the mix of species of plants and animals on earth to what we have right now with the endangered species act (hear GOD laughing uproariously in the background).

God created it all for our use. He just wants us to be good stewards, recognize HIS gifts, and show our gratitude.

All of the things being proposed by government's to stop climate change are designed to give corrupt politicians more control over us while they line there pockets (look at Al Gore and carbon credits and the rest of the lot ). None of it will affect what the climate does.

It's one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated on mankind. And most that buy into it are doing it because they want to place trust into some higher power to keep them safe and haven't learned to place their trust in GOD.

The government, or GOD. Who do you trust?


Sneak the pan under his paw!
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616940
09/14/19 06:09 PM
09/14/19 06:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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OH
Well said Dan.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616953
09/14/19 06:26 PM
09/14/19 06:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
J
James Offline
"Minka"
James  Offline
"Minka"
J

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
Let me try again.

Suppose you own a valuable building. You are considering whether to insure it against fire and flood.

If you don't buy the insurance, and suffer a fire, your building is a total loss. Your small business fails. Your family may go have to go hungry, without health insurance. That's a pretty catastrophic loss.

On the other hand, if you skip the insurance and never have a fire, you'll save the money you would have paid for insurance premiums for years.

So what do you do? My bet is you get the insurance. The reason is the chance of a fire is so catastrophic, while the cost of premiums spread over time is a lesser burden. Your business won't go under because of the cost of the fire insurance.

Now, substitute global warming--a potentially catastrophic event--for a building fire. A change in our use of fossil fuels, including a greater cost of energy, is like the insurance premiums. You see where I'm going?

I don't favor drastic measures that would undermine our lifestyle. But we do need to first recognize the problem.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Climate [Re: James] #6616969
09/14/19 06:46 PM
09/14/19 06:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
W
white marlin Offline
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white marlin  Offline
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W

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Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
LOL!

and you said MY analogy doesn't work!

Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6616973
09/14/19 06:49 PM
09/14/19 06:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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white marlin  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
you have EXPENSIVE insurance premiums without the likelihood of ever having the need to place a claim.

Re: Climate [Re: white marlin] #6616974
09/14/19 06:49 PM
09/14/19 06:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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OH
Originally Posted by white marlin
LOL!

and you said MY analogy doesn't work!


WM, I think you would be kettle in this scenario lol.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Climate [Re: Catch22] #6616975
09/14/19 06:51 PM
09/14/19 06:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,190
Kansas
Pawnee Offline
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Kansas
Originally Posted by Catch22
Well said Dan.


I’ll second that


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: Climate [Re: Pawnee] #6617003
09/14/19 07:17 PM
09/14/19 07:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
Dan Barnhurst Offline
trapper
Dan Barnhurst  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
Trust GOD. Acknowledge HIS hand. Be a good steward . Show gratitude.

Do all those things and we'll all be fine.

How do we show gratitude and be good stewards? Don't waste the precious gifts HE is giving us. Be clean and efficient with them. And remember to thank HIM.

That is how I will pay my insurance premiums. I am confident that insurance will pay off.

Giving over the premiums corrupt politicians are telling us will protect you???? Good luck with that!


Sneak the pan under his paw!
Re: Climate [Re: rex123] #6617081
09/14/19 08:44 PM
09/14/19 08:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
M
mainer Offline
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Maine
Originally Posted by James
You see where I'm going?
I don't favor drastic measures that would undermine our lifestyle. But we do need to first recognize the problem.
Jim

I see exactly where you're going, Jim, but you're just repeating the same fallacy with another failed analogy because the underlying premise is flawed, viz., the so-called problem we all need to recognize. It's not as clear cut as you would like to believe. As I pointed out in an earlier post on this very thread:
Quote
It's perfectly reasonable to reject the climate change hysteria, the doom and gloom predictions, and the broader politicization of climate science... while at the same time accept the scientific evidence for global warming. The latter does not necessarily lead to the former.

I don't see the value or need to accept either position whole cloth simply because I'm told to oblige or because it's so obvious. There's nothing obvious about it. But to be fair, the elevation of climate change to an indisputable truth is a product of folks like you, not us. In other words, we have not been shoving this religious mumbo jumbo down everyone's throat with threats of extinction-level annihilation.... You have!


"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: Climate [Re: Catch22] #6617087
09/14/19 08:46 PM
09/14/19 08:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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central Haudenosaunee, the De...
Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by white marlin
LOL!

and you said MY analogy doesn't work!


WM, I think you would be kettle in this scenario lol.


I don't see that, but...

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