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Coyote Primeness #6622318
09/22/19 12:26 AM
09/22/19 12:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,100
Bonner County, Idaho
Wild_Idaho Offline OP
trapper
Wild_Idaho  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,100
Bonner County, Idaho
So the Intermountain Fur Harvesters I'm a member of had a demo day today. I didn't get a chance to ask him, but the trapper doing the coyote demo mentioned that coyotes get prime by the shortening of the light in the day not by the temperature. But I have heard other trappers say that the coyotes get prime at higher elevations first (since it's colder up there) before down in the valleys. Would be curious to hear the thoughts of other western trappers on if it's the waning daylight or the dropping temps that cause coyotes to get prime.


Real name Eric
The sharpest hammer in the box of crayons.

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622325
09/22/19 01:08 AM
09/22/19 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,960
Northern Nevada
B
Bob Offline
trapper
Bob  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,960
Northern Nevada
The daylight has more to do with it than temp. If temperature were the cause then many furbearers would freeze to death, all it would take would be one cold front at the end of summer to bring a big temperature swing


"I have two guns, one for each of ya."
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622330
09/22/19 01:19 AM
09/22/19 01:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,972
South Dakota
R
Rat Masterson Offline
trapper
Rat Masterson  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,972
South Dakota
The waning daylight is what triggers priming, that being said I've had old time fur buyers tell me that cold, cloudy, rainy, weather helps put a nice finish on furbearers. I do know that coon are not the same primeness every year on the same date.

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622336
09/22/19 01:30 AM
09/22/19 01:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,073
montana
R
red mt Offline
trapper
red mt  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,073
montana
Sun light
But that said elevation and weather have a effect on the overall fur quality imo.
I start nov1 regardless they grade heavy .
But alot of guys start killing them in middle of October


Kenneth schoening
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622423
09/22/19 08:21 AM
09/22/19 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
K
Katcatcher Offline
trapper
Katcatcher  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
I KILL THEM YEAR AROUND AND START LOOKING FOR A SKINNING KNIFE IN LATE OCTOBER.


BETTER WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT BY GAME MANAGERS
LISTENING TO "REAL" KNOWLEDGEABLE HUNTERS AND TRAPPERS
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622670
09/22/19 01:46 PM
09/22/19 01:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,414
Idaho Falls, Idaho
F
Furvor Offline
trapper
Furvor  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,414
Idaho Falls, Idaho
From what I have read, amount and intensity of light are primary factors. Shorter days bring less light and the sun is at a lower angle. An increase in number of cloudy days supplements that. High elevation fur may look better more because of weight than because of primeness. Controlling number of hours of light is common practice at fur farms. Also at chicken barns, though for different reasons.

Last edited by Furvor; 09/22/19 02:00 PM.
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622681
09/22/19 02:13 PM
09/22/19 02:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 838
North dakota
N
Nd native Offline
trapper
Nd native  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 838
North dakota
This an age old dispute on trapperman. No one can come up with the exact same answer. I'm going to go with Furvors answer as usually the most agreed upon.

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6622703
09/22/19 02:46 PM
09/22/19 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,602
Oregon 66
bfflobo Offline
trapper
bfflobo  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,602
Oregon 66
Prime is when the blood leaves the leather and turns into fur. Leather turned from blue to white. Length of sun light triggers this the same as deer antlers growing and shedding. Thickness and quality of fur is determined by temps and elevation. A prime fur at low elevation in wet conditions has white leather, the fur is done growing and is still crap, course hair and little under fur. Prime in cold high elevation has white leather with longer guard hair and thick under fur. High elevations tend to have different types of vegetation that might change the colors of the fur due to natures way of camouflage. Later in the season the leather can still be prime (white) but the fur is going down hill do to wear and tear of life in the wild.
Two different variables that effect quality.

Last edited by bfflobo; 09/22/19 11:31 PM.

Clean traps,tight lines,straight shooting
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Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623338
09/23/19 10:48 AM
09/23/19 10:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,005
Oregon
beaverpeeler Offline
trapper
beaverpeeler  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,005
Oregon
I think that day length is the main factor and it's possible that genetic variation could be a cause for high elevation yotes to have more fur than the lower valley ones on the same date. There definitely are differences in fur quality and priming up from elevation and region with all other things the same.


My fear of moving stairs is escalating!
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623342
09/23/19 11:03 AM
09/23/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 288
new mexico
B
bmccoyote Offline
trapper
bmccoyote  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 288
new mexico
I like furvor's answer and would definitely agree. Where i live we are at 6600 to 6700 in elevation and the days have already begun to get cooler, 55-60 in the mornings and 75-80 during the day. We have also had some days in the last month that were cloudy, and breezy with high humidity than normal for this time of year. I caught a coyote last monday and he was definitely well on his way to getting prime, good guard hair and a woolly under coat started. If I remember this evening I'll try to post some pictures.

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: beaverpeeler] #6623390
09/23/19 12:10 PM
09/23/19 12:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by beaverpeeler
I think that day length is the main factor and it's possible that genetic variation could be a cause for high elevation yotes to have more fur than the lower valley ones on the same date. There definitely are differences in fur quality and priming up from elevation and region with all other things the same.


You guys are talking about two (at least) different things here.

Photo period controls the onset of priming.just as it does the leaves changing color in the fall.

Hair quality is a product of genetic adaptation to environment, So those of you who think that coyote hair is better at higher elevation need to think about those coyotes being a product of that different environment than coyotes that spend their lives in lowlands. It has nothing to do with being prime.

As an example.......you could take an Alabama coyote and move him to Pike's Peak, He will still grow Alabama hair because that is what his genes dictate.

Another example is the Sierra Red Fox. They inhabit a narrow band of a couple thousand feet on the east flank of the Sierras in CA. Coyotes do not use that particular elevation so the foxes are not threatened by them. Consequently they have evolved to suit that particular habitat in a very small space.

On the issue of cloudy weather: This is another bogus belief about priming. We are talking about UV......ultra-violet.........light . NOT Infra-red. Sunlight in the visible part of the spectrum is NOT what triggers priming....UV is the trigger. So a cloudy day is not preventing UV from reaching the surface of the Earth while it may very well impede IR. Remember getting that severe sunburn on the beach that cloudy day ??? UV..not IR.


Mean As Nails
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: white17] #6623529
09/23/19 05:12 PM
09/23/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,581
sometimes PA sometimes ME
E
ebsurveyor Online mad
trapper
ebsurveyor  Online Mad
trapper
E

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,581
sometimes PA sometimes ME
Originally Posted by white17
Originally Posted by beaverpeeler
I think that day length is the main factor and it's possible that genetic variation could be a cause for high elevation yotes to have more fur than the lower valley ones on the same date. There definitely are differences in fur quality and priming up from elevation and region with all other things the same.


You guys are talking about two (at least) different things here.

Photo period controls the onset of priming.just as it does the leaves changing color in the fall.

Hair quality is a product of genetic adaptation to environment, So those of you who think that coyote hair is better at higher elevation need to think about those coyotes being a product of that different environment than coyotes that spend their lives in lowlands. It has nothing to do with being prime.

As an example.......you could take an Alabama coyote and move him to Pike's Peak, He will still grow Alabama hair because that is what his genes dictate.

Another example is the Sierra Red Fox. They inhabit a narrow band of a couple thousand feet on the east flank of the Sierras in CA. Coyotes do not use that particular elevation so the foxes are not threatened by them. Consequently they have evolved to suit that particular habitat in a very small space.

On the issue of cloudy weather: This is another bogus belief about priming. We are talking about UV......ultra-violet.........light . NOT Infra-red. Sunlight in the visible part of the spectrum is NOT what triggers priming....UV is the trigger. So a cloudy day is not preventing UV from reaching the surface of the Earth while it may very well impede IR. Remember getting that severe sunburn on the beach that cloudy day ??? UV..not IR.


Mr. White17, Let's talk Maine black Bears. For the past 11 years I have been helping outfitters in Northern Maine. Since I've been here we have had an abundant mast crop every other year. During the short crop years the bears seem to prime earlier, fatten up earlier and den earlier. .During the lean years Bears will be denned by mid October. This year food is everywhere and the bears we are killing have very little fat and poor fur quality. We will be seeing bears well into November this year. Last year with a short mast crop our bears were mostly denned in October and the Sep. killed bears had good fur quality. I'm not talking about just a few bear. We have handled well over 500 bears in the past ten years and it seems true that our September bears have better fur quality every other year.

Last edited by ebsurveyor; 09/23/19 05:28 PM.
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623587
09/23/19 06:56 PM
09/23/19 06:56 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 15,540
Champaign County, Ohio.
K
KeithC Offline
trapper
KeithC  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 15,540
Champaign County, Ohio.
My coyote, Katie, is a house pet. She spends most of her time indoors. She goes outside around 6 or 7 times a day to urinate, defecate and play. Strangely, she greatly prefers to stay inside in bad weather, compared to my dogs, who generally like going out except in extremely heavy rain. Katie always pulls hard to the house when it's time to go in. Last year Katie had very late, very thin fur development. I would guess at her peak pelt, she had around a quarter of the average fur development of a normal, wild, Ohio coyote. She also had a very weak first heat. I would guess the consistent, long photo period kept her from ever receiving a clear biological signal to prime. I would guess the photo period effected her heat cycle too.

I have seen outdoor dogs and cats that had thick furs when living outside, have very thin fur the next year after being kept inside. I have noticed that outdoor dogs and cats blow their coats over a very short period of time. Indoor dogs and cats shed over a much longer period of time.

Keith

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623673
09/23/19 09:13 PM
09/23/19 09:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Mt. USA
W
woodchip Offline
trapper
woodchip  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Mt. USA
Call Greg petska at petska fur and he will explain prime fur

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623677
09/23/19 09:17 PM
09/23/19 09:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,116
Washington
C
cat daddy Offline
trapper
cat daddy  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,116
Washington
Back when we could use real traps, I would trap 75 to 80 coyotes. Usually would start on halloween and wrap it up around new years day. Man I miss trapping coyotes!

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623688
09/23/19 09:31 PM
09/23/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
juneau, alaska
A
alaska viking Offline
"Made it two years not being censored"
alaska viking  Offline
"Made it two years not being censored"
A

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
juneau, alaska
Regarding bears, food drives the animal, without question. The daylight triggers the hair/fur growth. This fact.
That said, weather/temperature conditions will dictate animal behavior. Even though the calander says it is October, it might feel like August, and I don't wear a coat. Bears may rub a little, but are still putting new fur growth on. A partial explanation.
As to bears going to den early in years of high mast/chow, that is not surprising. I have the most winter bear problems in poor food years,. Especially years that have both poor berry crops, and poor salmon returns.

Last edited by alaska viking; 09/23/19 09:32 PM.

Made it almost 3 years without censor!

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623701
09/23/19 09:57 PM
09/23/19 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,190
Kansas
Pawnee Offline
trapper
Pawnee  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,190
Kansas
Daylight is number one. Moisture and temp number 2. Kinda like soybeans less hours of the sun and there ready to harvest


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623718
09/23/19 10:13 PM
09/23/19 10:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,100
Bonner County, Idaho
Wild_Idaho Offline OP
trapper
Wild_Idaho  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4,100
Bonner County, Idaho
Thanks guys, lots of information to take in. Just trying to be a sponge here.


Real name Eric
The sharpest hammer in the box of crayons.

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: ebsurveyor] #6623733
09/23/19 10:36 PM
09/23/19 10:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by ebsurveyor
Originally Posted by white17

You guys are talking about two (at least) different things here.

Photo period controls the onset of priming.just as it does the leaves changing color in the fall.

Hair quality is a product of genetic adaptation to environment, So those of you who think that coyote hair is better at higher elevation need to think about those coyotes being a product of that different environment than coyotes that spend their lives in lowlands. It has nothing to do with being prime.

As an example.......you could take an Alabama coyote and move him to Pike's Peak, He will still grow Alabama hair because that is what his genes dictate.

Another example is the Sierra Red Fox. They inhabit a narrow band of a couple thousand feet on the east flank of the Sierras in CA. Coyotes do not use that particular elevation so the foxes are not threatened by them. Consequently they have evolved to suit that particular habitat in a very small space.

On the issue of cloudy weather: This is another bogus belief about priming. We are talking about UV......ultra-violet.........light . NOT Infra-red. Sunlight in the visible part of the spectrum is NOT what triggers priming....UV is the trigger. So a cloudy day is not preventing UV from reaching the surface of the Earth while it may very well impede IR. Remember getting that severe sunburn on the beach that cloudy day ??? UV..not IR.


Mr. White17, Let's talk Maine black Bears. For the past 11 years I have been helping outfitters in Northern Maine. Since I've been here we have had an abundant mast crop every other year. During the short crop years the bears seem to prime earlier, fatten up earlier and den earlier. .During the lean years Bears will be denned by mid October. This year food is everywhere and the bears we are killing have very little fat and poor fur quality. We will be seeing bears well into November this year. Last year with a short mast crop our bears were mostly denned in October and the Sep. killed bears had good fur quality. I'm not talking about just a few bear. We have handled well over 500 bears in the past ten years and it seems true that our September bears have better fur quality every other year.


I seem to remember you mentioning this before.

As AK Viking says it isn't surprising to see fat bears go in the hole earlier than lean bears. Like him.......anytime I have had a run in with a winter grizzly they always appeared skinny and emaciated. I think they know they don't have enough fat reserves to make it through hibernation so they come out and look for a meal anytime they feel the need.

That's an interesting observation about your bears being skinny when the mast crop is abundant. On the other hand, maybe when the mast is abundant the bears remain active longer just to take advantage of the available grub. I immediately wonder if perhaps at a certain level of consumption the food becomes toxic. Like an overdose of ice cream. ( is there such a thing ? )

It reminds me of the willow plant producing toxins when the moose and hares have browsed it down to a certain level. I'm not saying that the trees are producing a toxin but that maybe the bears are gorging on that crop enough to where it becomes detrimental. Is it possible that at a certain point a bear is eating only one thing and his diet is so 'singular" that he can't utilize the calories he i consuming ??
That is an interesting proposition. Maybe Gulo will have some ideas on that


Mean As Nails
Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: Wild_Idaho] #6623734
09/23/19 10:37 PM
09/23/19 10:37 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 533
MN
S
SkyeDancer Offline
trapper
SkyeDancer  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 533
MN
and animals differ...two years ago, I caught two gray fox day after opener...one sold top grade and the other was flat...both caught half mile a part

Re: Coyote Primeness [Re: SkyeDancer] #6623743
09/23/19 10:49 PM
09/23/19 10:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 35,129
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by SkyeDancer
and animals differ...two years ago, I caught two gray fox day after opener...one sold top grade and the other was flat...both caught half mile a part


Early caught critters oftentimes show very different grades. You can easily see this in coons. Lactating animals may NEVER be prime that particular year. Hormones rule !!

Do you recall the genders of those foxes...and ages ??


Mean As Nails
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