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Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: Dirt] #6632588
10/04/19 12:47 PM
10/04/19 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,047
Iowa
M
mink99 Offline
trapper
mink99  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,047
Iowa
Originally Posted by Dirt
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Will be interesting when NAFA becomes the place to sell coon or whatever,how many will climb back on board.

Smart business move to get off board when nafa is not the place to sell. Irregardless of what trappers do, 90 plus percent of nafa's revenues comes from ranch mink.


That ranch mink revenue is dropping like a rock now. Nafa needs all the wild fur they can get to help stay afloat.


ITA, NTA, FTA
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632604
10/04/19 01:05 PM
10/04/19 01:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,213
central Missouri
B
Bigfoot Offline
trapper
Bigfoot  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,213
central Missouri
It just means they quit handling their money . NO MORE TRANSFERS GET YOUR MONEY OUT OF OUR BANK TODAY. Just because it might be illegal banking pratices in the USA does not mean that it is a prosecutable offense in international banking law. IM not going to speculate on NAFA s solvency .

If this is why this Bank cut ties with North American then we should all be concerned about this agreement.I mean who's deciding what businesses are hard on the environment, or even what constitutes hard on the environment. There's a very real possibility that one third of the banks in the world just decided that our industry is bad and they wont handle the money .If that is the case just imagine what this will do to the little businesses like tanneries and furriers or the international Brokers that buy and sell fur around the world

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632616
10/04/19 01:23 PM
10/04/19 01:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
D
Dirt Offline
trapper
Dirt  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
I think nafa would benefit more from a continuous supply of ranch mink.


Who is John Galt?
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632617
10/04/19 01:26 PM
10/04/19 01:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
W
wissmiss Offline
trapper
wissmiss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
The one point that hasn’t been mentioned is that not all buyers pay for their purchases in full by prompt date. NAFA has a provision in their buyer agreement as to payment options. I don’t have all the details in front of me but I think it is that at least a 35% deposit is required by prompt date. Then they have additional time to pay the balance. During this time, NAFA charges the buyer interest on the unpaid balance. The buyer is not able to receive the goods until they are paid for in full. NAFA holds them as collateral.

Also, once in a while a buyer never pays for the goods he bought. NAFA charges him interest (or attempts to charge him interest) but eventually NAFA takes possession of the goods and reoffers them at the next auction. They usually sell the goods for what the going price is, so that they can recoup some, if not all, of their money. If the market has gone down, the goods some times bring less than they originally sold for. NAFA takes the loss. Needless to say, this buyer is not welcome back.

Shippers get paid in full on prompt date. They get paid for everything that sold no matter if NAFA has been paid or not.

This is where the banks come in. NAFA borrows money from them to pay the shippers even if their sold goods are not paid for in full.

Say a buyer spends $100,000.00 at the sale. He makes the minimum required payment of $35,000.00 and finances the rest with NAFA. That leaves NAFA with $65,000.00 to come up with on prompt date. That may not seems like a lot of money in the big NAFA picture. But suppose 10 buyers to that. Now we are looking at $1,000,000.00 in sales that NAFA has to pay for but they only have $350,000.00 to work with. Where does the other $650,000.00 come from?? A bank of course.

I don’t know the exact numbers but the number of purchases not paid for in full by prompt date is significant enough that a bank needs to be involved so that all shipper accounts are paid for in full on prompt date.

Hopefully this clarifies the situation a bit more. If any of you are still confused, please feel free to ask questions and I will try to explain further.

Note - I am NOT a NAFA employee. I have been buying and selling at NAFA since the mid1980s and have a very good understanding of how the system works.


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632623
10/04/19 01:40 PM
10/04/19 01:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
M
mainer Offline
trapper
mainer  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,076
Maine
Thank you, wissmiss! Your explanation helps quite a bit.


"...in a very few days we succeeded in taking over one hundred beaver, the skins of which were worth ten dollars per pound."
Jim Beckwourth (1856)
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632694
10/04/19 04:12 PM
10/04/19 04:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Alberta
WhiskeyJack Offline
trapper
WhiskeyJack  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 300
Alberta
Id like to know which bank did this to NAFA. there are not many banks up here and id really like to make sure i don't do business with them.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632716
10/04/19 04:38 PM
10/04/19 04:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
Idaho
B
brymoore Offline
trapper
brymoore  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
Idaho
Wissmiss explained the situation well. This isn’t a case of the bank being antifur or some other conspiracy. This is the same bank that provided a $10 million line of credit before the lady sale.

From what I read, the original bank was unhappy with the credit risk and asked NAFA to find another bank. To expedite the search, the bank shut off NAFA’s line of credit, bouncing checks.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: WhiskeyJack] #6632718
10/04/19 04:40 PM
10/04/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
Originally Posted by WhiskeyJack
Id like to know which bank did this to NAFA. there are not many banks up here and id really like to make sure i don't do business with them.

CIBC is the bank listed on the checks

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632767
10/04/19 06:11 PM
10/04/19 06:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 333
OR
C
Catcollector Offline
trapper
Catcollector  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 333
OR
Wiss Miss, Anybody taking financing at NAFA for their purchased furs is a fool ( my opinion) their rates are insane. Why would said party not get lower rate financing before the sale? Which tells me that the people they are lending to are a high credit risk, hence the high rate if that really is the new trend to default on purchases, which I think isn't that case? Raise the upfront deposit, put more into reserves to cover the spread. Seems a sweet deal actually if the customer forfeited the furs back... I absolutely love it when a customer does a pay plan and fails to follow thru and forfeits the money and I keep the merchandise... It's like pennys from heaven... But this creative financing is a fire breathing dragon and has burned their reputation and sent confidence in the toilet from what I can see. I'm pretty sure you must have been at the 2013 Feb sale? The obscene amount of money flowing should have been enough to solidify their position until the next century, but that isn't the case is it, still muddy waters to me...

Here is a true story around 2010 I believe... Young couple has $40,000 their life savings and all their wedding gift monies to buy a manufactured home they go to this factory in Canada they've been around a long time... Better deal, bigger home, pays cash, waits for delivery, no house, calls factory, no body answers, panic sets in, the factory has closed, the house never built, get a lawyer spend another $10,000 until lawyer says finally your throwing good money after bad... Story ends. Young newly wed couple out $50,000 they have to live with their parents while resaving for a down payment. Worse case scenario but it does happen and when it does there is no loyalty to anybody we all go under the bus.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632774
10/04/19 06:16 PM
10/04/19 06:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,213
central Missouri
B
Bigfoot Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,213
central Missouri
CIBC Bank is listed as signatory to the agreement

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632779
10/04/19 06:32 PM
10/04/19 06:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
W
wissmiss Offline
trapper
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W

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
Many of the buyers at NAFA are not American or Canadian. I’m willing to bet at least 75% of the invoices NAFA issues are to customers/addresses in countries other than the US or Canada. Do you know what financing options there are in Hong Kong or Greece or Russia? Perhaps NAFA financing is a better option.

If a buyer were getting their financing from a different source than NAFA, then their goods would be paid for in full and they would be able to clear them (have them shipped).

I am quite sure that any one who is financing through NAFA has a good reason to do so.


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632792
10/04/19 07:02 PM
10/04/19 07:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 157
North central Ohio
R
RonH Offline
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R

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 157
North central Ohio
Thank Wissmiss for all your help and patient explanations. Good to hear it from someone who has dealt with Nafa for years and has first hand information.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632796
10/04/19 07:11 PM
10/04/19 07:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,547
NC, Orange Co.
QuietButDeadly Offline
trapper
QuietButDeadly  Offline
trapper

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,547
NC, Orange Co.
It does not take much to scroll through a catalog with a calculator to realize that a lot of money is involved and 89% (for wild fur) of that money is paid out on prompt date. NAFA manages a lot of money for sure but only get to keep a small percentage of what they handle.


Life Member: NCTA, VTA, NTA, TTFHA, MFTI
Member: FTA NRA NWTF
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632808
10/04/19 07:41 PM
10/04/19 07:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
D
Dirt Offline
trapper
Dirt  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,135
Armpit, ak
Nafa pockets more than 11 percent on a sale.


Who is John Galt?
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632810
10/04/19 07:45 PM
10/04/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
juneau, alaska
A
alaska viking Offline
"Made it two years not being censored"
alaska viking  Offline
"Made it two years not being censored"
A

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
juneau, alaska
QBD, are you serious? 11% commission on a product they don't actually produce is a buisinessman's dream.
Sure, there is overhead and promotional expenses, but 11% is approaching the Holy Grail.


Made it almost 3 years without censor!

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632815
10/04/19 07:53 PM
10/04/19 07:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
W
wissmiss Offline
trapper
wissmiss  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
11% is just the sellers fee. Seller also pays drumming on long hair fur and CITES fees where applicable.

Buyer pays 6.5% (I think) plus a per pelt commission plus a per pelt packing fee.

Depending on hammer price, percent NAFA collects is probably in the 25-30% range. Maybe higher on Section III goods.


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632816
10/04/19 07:54 PM
10/04/19 07:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,547
NC, Orange Co.
QuietButDeadly Offline
trapper
QuietButDeadly  Offline
trapper

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,547
NC, Orange Co.
Yes because they have charges for buyers to but the catalog price for wild fur, 89% is paid out on prompt date for every lot that sold. Not familiar with the ranch fur side.

Even with the buyer fees, the amount NAFA keeps is still a small percentage of the total selling price. And all of their expenses and profit has to come out of the percentage they keep.


Life Member: NCTA, VTA, NTA, TTFHA, MFTI
Member: FTA NRA NWTF
Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632881
10/04/19 09:29 PM
10/04/19 09:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 333
OR
C
Catcollector Offline
trapper
Catcollector  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 333
OR
Then don't float loans to shady customers... Why is Nafa in the banking business? Stick w/ hammering fur and collecting fees/ commission to folks that can actually afford it.... I know my limits, I've seen idiots bidding and they should throw them out of the auction chamber but they don't because they are greedy... Greed and money is a deal w/ the devil... But has anybody seen the actual #'s... Not accusing but the CEO and President just jumped ship in August... Coincidence?

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: gibb] #6632974
10/05/19 12:38 AM
10/05/19 12:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
W
wissmiss Offline
trapper
wissmiss  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,681
north Idaho
NAFA doesn’t float loans to shady customers. They work with reliable buyers to ensure they can get the goods they need.

I didn’t realize the CEO and President “jumped ship” in August. Herman Jansen and Michael Menghar retired earlier this year. I don’t consider that “ jumping ship “. Folks retire all the time.

Catcollector - it seems to me that you don’t really want an answer. You just want to argue and get folks riled up. I sure I know who you are in real life..........


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: NAFA NFS Checks [Re: wissmiss] #6632979
10/05/19 12:52 AM
10/05/19 12:52 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,686
Alaska
D
drasselt Offline
trapper
drasselt  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,686
Alaska
Originally Posted by wissmiss


Shippers get paid in full on prompt date. They get paid for everything that sold no matter if NAFA has been paid or not.

This is where the banks come in. NAFA borrows money from them to pay the shippers even if their sold goods are not paid for in full.

Say a buyer spends $100,000.00 at the sale. He makes the minimum required payment of $35,000.00 and finances the rest with NAFA. That leaves NAFA with $65,000.00 to come up with on prompt date. That may not seems like a lot of money in the big NAFA picture. But suppose 10 buyers to that. Now we are looking at $1,000,000.00 in sales that NAFA has to pay for but they only have $350,000.00 to work with. Where does the other $650,000.00 come from?? A bank of course.

I don’t know the exact numbers but the number of purchases not paid for in full by prompt date is significant enough that a bank needs to be involved so that all shipper accounts are paid for in full on prompt date..


Well unless I'm missing something the above does not factor in the 11% commission charged to the seller which would take the figure in this example down to $540,000.00 that NAFA would have to finance in order to be able to pay the trapper. Still if NAFA indeed has been essentially living pay check to pay check, and taking out loans to cover expenses, as a routine, then I am truly surprised.
I thought they lost their butts buying into mink ranches which crashed in value and that caused their financial crisis but maybe not?

Last edited by drasselt; 10/05/19 12:55 AM.

you can vote your way into socialism, but you will have to shoot your way out.
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