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Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659561
11/07/19 10:46 AM
11/07/19 10:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,714
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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IMO it is incredibly dumb to borrow from a bank then re-loan that money at a higher interest rate to people who cant get the money at the cheaper bank rate. Banks make their money on loans. No loans is no profit. If a bank wont make a loan to somebody there is good reason. Nafa should have stayed in the fur business. Maybe a little kick back by promoting a credit card issued by the bank with NAFA on it. Like what cabelas and bass pro do.


ban gun free zones
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659562
11/07/19 10:47 AM
11/07/19 10:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 94
OR
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Catcollector Offline
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Seems trapping lost the classification as occupation (even though it is probably the worlds second in existence) to recreational sport where as ranching is still an occupation... So yeah we can lose money every year doing what we love! ha ha

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659563
11/07/19 10:49 AM
11/07/19 10:49 AM
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Posts: 94
OR
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Catcollector Offline
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I bet the higher ups at NAFA made out like bandits, literally mid night bandits! and said screw the bank and the producers throw'em under the bus!

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: mink99] #6659571
11/07/19 11:06 AM
11/07/19 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,555
WI
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nimzy Offline
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Originally Posted by mink99
Originally Posted by pcr2
nah,worse is using wild fur to fund ranch fur mad



I think you have that backwards. Money from the commissions of ranch mink were often used to help fund the promotion of wild fur.


In reality this is likely closer to the truth.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: mink99] #6659583
11/07/19 11:24 AM
11/07/19 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,873
Co.-Wy. part time AK.
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wy.wolfer Offline
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Co.-Wy. part time AK.
Originally Posted by mink99
Originally Posted by pcr2
nah,worse is using wild fur to fund ranch fur mad



I think you have that backwards. Money from the commissions of ranch mink were often used to help fund the promotion of wild fur.

Save your breath, you're head will explode before you make a dent.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: mink99] #6659590
11/07/19 11:35 AM
11/07/19 11:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,347
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Originally Posted by mink99
Originally Posted by pcr2
nah,worse is using wild fur to fund ranch fur mad



I think you have that backwards. Money from the commissions of ranch mink were often used to help fund the promotion of wild fur.


Pretty sure that is why we never saw an effective "Cage Free, Free Range, Organic" promotion for wild fur. I see Canada Goose uses this in an oblique way.

" It also requires that we only use wild fur from North American suppliers and that we never use fur from fur farms or endangered species."

Last edited by Dirt; 11/07/19 11:42 AM.

Who is John Galt?
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: mink99] #6659591
11/07/19 11:36 AM
11/07/19 11:36 AM
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Posts: 7,695
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hippie Offline
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Originally Posted by mink99
Originally Posted by hippie
Amazing that folks would borrow money to the ranch when they know full well they won't make it back. Even worse, to loan the money knowing the same.


The borrowing has gone on for several years without a problem. Wasn’t until recently when mink prices went south that there were problems.



Considering we fur trappers knew it was going south, what were they looking at?I

I hung my traps up 3 to 4 years ago when it didn't pay to trap.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659595
11/07/19 11:41 AM
11/07/19 11:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 202
Wyoming
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thedude055 Offline
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Wyoming
Honest question I don't think it matters really in the whole scheme of things but curious. Did NAFA loan money to wild fur trappers/Sellers or just mink ranchers? The loans themselves are not out of the ordinary really. Farmers of all types get loans against projected crops. Some farmers right now are facing hard times in these neck of the woods and there are some that in theory could owe money when they sell their crop. I believe the business practices is likely the demise. Kinda like how two casinos side by side with same customer base and one goes belly up and the other thrives. It is always the business practices and ethics involved in money management that get them not the principle of the business.

The auction business model is very simple at first. Commissions form both sides is your income. Then you get dips in markets. Do you spend money to promote the product you move so you can increase sales and then commissions and if so how much? Maybe you need to invest in research to see how much of an impact you can make. What dollar amount is applicable to this research. Then what do you do if you are just wrong. Tariffs are a serious issue we have going on with sales to foreign countries. Do you get politically involved or do you sit by the wayside? Politically involved means money that is all politics is business in government. How much money do you spend on politics? In millions of business models in the world the same things go on. How those issues are handled can be the demise of the company. It is almost certainly the demise of NAFA. It is not that they loaned money to a provider but that they projected incorrectly futures in a volatile market. It is not that they spent money to promote wild furs but that they didn't appropriate that money to the correct avenue. I don't know as though blaming each other saying it was your fault I am clean as a canary has anything to do with the issue at all.


2019 to date 9 Coon (1 released), 1 Muskrat, 2 cottontails, 1 Beaver
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659626
11/07/19 12:12 PM
11/07/19 12:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
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north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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In the past, NAFA and its predecessor Hudson Bay advanced money to dealers to buy fur with. Guess you might call that a loan. In the early 1980s when the market tanked there were dealers that owed the auction company money.

The auction company has advanced money to Trappers, usually when they had the pelts in their possession. Trapper X would send NAFA 100 raccoon and get an advance based on estimated market price. NAFA was still doing that asvrecentky as last season, though on a limited scale.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659631
11/07/19 12:16 PM
11/07/19 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 202
Wyoming
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thedude055 Offline
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Wyoming
Thank you Wiss Miss.


2019 to date 9 Coon (1 released), 1 Muskrat, 2 cottontails, 1 Beaver
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659636
11/07/19 12:25 PM
11/07/19 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,482
north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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north Idaho
One more thing about trapper advances - they are considered a loan and NAFA charges interest. 18% last time I checked.

Like the fur buyer “loans”, when the market collapsed on wild fur, their were trappers that owed NAFA money because their pelts sold for less than they had been advanced. NAFA kept charging interest until the amount owed was repaid. In some cases, this was quite a hit to the trapper.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659637
11/07/19 12:26 PM
11/07/19 12:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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Of course that's a loan. More than one trapper took the money and ended up owing NAFA after the sale. On more than one sale. Arranging loans, like a car dealer does, and getting a kickback from the lender, makes lots more sense.

Its a no lose situation to auction other peoples goods. The buyer pays a fee and so does the shipper. Storage facilities, wages, fur pick up costs, entertainment costs, insurance taxs etc are costs of doing business. That is not what caused NAFA to run out of operating funds


ban gun free zones
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659692
11/07/19 01:34 PM
11/07/19 01:34 PM
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hippie Offline
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Are trapped advances before or after the fur is received by NAFA ? I never considered this so I'm in the dark about trapper advances.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659720
11/07/19 02:19 PM
11/07/19 02:19 PM
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north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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Trapper advances, as a general rule, are after the pelts are at a NAFA building. Toronto. Stoughton. Winnipeg. That way a grader can give a rough valuation based on the market.

I say, as a general rule, because it is appearing that NAFA didn’t always follow their own rules.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659722
11/07/19 02:22 PM
11/07/19 02:22 PM
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hippie Offline
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That was what I figured, or else they were just a loan company. Thanks Wissmiss.

I'll guess the money they loaned ranchers was before pelts were recieved?

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659725
11/07/19 02:29 PM
11/07/19 02:29 PM
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north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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north Idaho
The loans to mink ranchers are called “production” loans. To buy feed, vaccinations, etc. most likely there is some sort of signed contract that states the rancher receiving the loan agrees to sell their mink through NAFA or who ever is lending them money.

Several people have mentioned why do ranchers get loans from NAFA when bank loans are most likely cheaper. I’m guessing it is because the mink ranchers can’t get a regular bank loan. Banks don’t like unknowns and volatile markets. NAFA, with the higher interest rate, might be the only option.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659729
11/07/19 02:31 PM
11/07/19 02:31 PM
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hippie Offline
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Thanks again .

Yea, I know our banks would laugh at them.

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: hippie] #6659737
11/07/19 02:42 PM
11/07/19 02:42 PM
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East-Central Wisconsin
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bblwi Offline
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Crop loans are a common practice in especially large scale agriculture today. What percentage of the potential crop value is being loaned against may well dictate if other collateral is pledged to cover the loan or just the crop.

Say a farmer will plant 2,000 acres of corn and 1,000 acres of beans. 2,000 acres of the land is rented at $250 per acre, add in fuel, chemical, seed, spraying and crop insurance lets say the average cost per acre is $450 which will be 1.35 million dollars. The bank loans the farmer say 880K for putting in the crop. (Almost all lenders will require a signed crop insurance contract if they are loaning money against a crop) and also there may well be considerable other collateral available if needed. I know many other agriculture enterprises that do similar things and I am sure many non ag businesses do the same. Many producers are extended monies by private firms to produce product and not just a bank.

If producers use all of the funds to plant and grow the crop, most likely even in difficult times there is money to repay the loans. If however producers use available funds to expand, grow, modernize etc. and thus say production costs may not be met then issues can and will arise. If NAFA had collateral agreements with ranchers for advance loans or production loans etc. this could take a long time to sort out. Those ranchers can also file for bankruptcy protection to reorganize their businesses as well.

Bryce

Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: mink99] #6659743
11/07/19 03:06 PM
11/07/19 03:06 PM
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GreenFur Offline
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The bank hasn't seized anything. Its the Canadian Courts that are controlling everything for the moment


GreenFur
Re: NAFA Speaks again .... [Re: Actor] #6659745
11/07/19 03:07 PM
11/07/19 03:07 PM
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North Bay Ontario
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gibb Offline
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North Bay Ontario
Here in Canada a trapper could receive an advance at the pick-up truck on the routes as soon as they dropped off their fur.
Very common pratice.
Also common pratice to advance at the Thompson fur tables and if the market tanked the trapper would not show up for a few years.

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