With all that has been said, I don't really have any trouble killing the deer. I always find my deer usually within 50 yards. My observation was that many people talk about dropping, where they stand, with one shot. When my dad was alive, he shot 150 grains out of a 760, 30-06. I don't really remember his deer dropping with one shot. But, all this talk of a lighter bullet is interesting.

Err, I meant fine.

Give me some slack, it is almost midnight for me.

Dang, couldn't find that emoji that was raising a beer. Oh well.

I've found every two hole deer I have shot.

Tell this to the deer That were shot with a 7MMSTW, 165gr.TSX hollow point at 3450fps. or the Prairie dog that just swallowed a 40gr. Vmax at 4000fps. I am not sure what to call it, but it definitely shocking.

shot a fall turkey once with my 220 swift--once

I can only suggest that you spend less time inside, reading, and more time working up different loads and bullet types and actually shoot more than a handful of deer with a rifle.
There was a thread recently about a fellow mentioning killing something shy of 400 deer. You won't need to shoot that many to actually learn something about what drops a deer in its tracks.
Many have mentioned the devastating effect of a 30-06 placed on the scapula. Some mentioned that it was due to hitting the spine. This is often true enough, but not exclusionary. Many deer succumb to the mass trauma caused by the full expansion of the bullet and the fact that the deer took the brunt of the entirety of the force (mass X velocity) which that cartridge had to offer.
Conversely, a 30 caliber hole going in and coming out cleanly indicates that the energy contained within that cartridge was not absorbed by the deer. I have mortally wounded two deer with one bullet on more than one occasion, indicating this.

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance/

this article explains shock reasonably well.

they are talking cape buffalo

I agree that on a sub 50 pound animal you can get shock every time maybe even on 80 pound and less animals.

their theory is shock works when catching the animals heart mid beat if you think of blood pressure and say your 140 over 80 not good but some what normal if the bullet doubles your BP on the 140 it pushed it to 280 and your get brain damage but if you were at 80 when the bullet hit it only took it to 160 not a good bp but survivable for the brain , even if your likely to die from the other fatal injuries.

if your shooting a 7mm STW at 100 yards and blazing a bullet into the deer at 3200fps you probably do get shock more often.

but that is a barrel burner of a rifle and a magnum round and still may not be enough to get shock on every one



back to a more reasonable round that has been mentioned a few times in this discussion a 150gr 30-06 a 150gr bullet at 2910fps say you shoot most deer about 75 yards 2704fps at target if your shooting 75 pound deer yes they probably all drop where shot , but when your shooing a deer 3 times larger at 225 it isn't a sure bet.

most of my deer shooting has been with 12 ga Winchester rifled slugs , on 100-130 pound does they never ran then I shot a few 200-230 pound bucks same shot placement most ran and some distance.

had I had a 300 win mag maybe fewer of them would have run but shock isn't a guarantee most definitely not with a shotgun and rifled slugs even with a devastating as the wound channel can be and a solid exit

the article/ study talks about how on autopsy the animals that fell had hemorrhaging in the brain and those that ran did not , as I recall it was approximately a 50/50 split run a distance vs fall where shot.

if your shooting smaller deer with a 150gr 30-06 you may see high percentage of DRT. but at some point you can flip a coin 5 times and come up heads every time but eventually you toss a tails flip the coin a hundred times and you likely start to look closer to 5050.

and if you could keep increasing the size and energy of the round you could probably keep shocking deer to a certain size , but at some point counting on shock as you get to larger animals with out constantly increasing bullet weight and velocity , but we hit a limit you and your shoulder can only take so much.

while shock is great and works well on smaller animals, hitting the CNS is really the only guarantee.

in which case a 308 or 30-06 with a 165 will take anything US and make it drop where it was shot.

you can shock the CNS with a pressure wave through soft tissue/fluid if you hit hard enough or you can just hit the CNS with the bullet and anchor any deer or other game every time

If I was shooting this deer I would aim where I put the yellow circle.

You and me both, Keith.


Jim

if it was standing in the middle of a field like that and 150 yards in every direction was mine to hunt or retrieve deer on and was open like that I would might shoot it in the yellow also.

however there are a number of circumstances that would make me shoot the red cross either one .

say I am on land that if that deer runs a hundred yards off to the left it will be in the yard of 100 condos. my brother shot a doe she ran about a hundred yards and expired in the back yard of a condo place that backs up to a cousins 400 acre farm. welcome to hunting where the deer are , that county is giving 5 free doe tags this year and has for the last 4 years they are over run with deer, because there is so much sanctuary for them.

if it is going to potentially cross the fence line off the 40 your hunting and run into the neighbors 40 where they will put another round in it and it will be there deer.

if I am hunting public land I am in my tree I can see orange in basically every direction and that deer is in front of me in presenting a safe shot, I am definitely shooting the red cross because if any of them get a round in that deer while it is running , it becomes theirs , the killing round takes the deer.

if I am hunting the edge of standing corn or soy beans and if it runs 75 yards into the beans it is going to have to get drug 75 yards back out trampling beans , or disappear into the corn

then I am definitely shooting the red cross.

it is a matter of circumstance

it's the last minutes of light and I am hunting the edge of a thick cedar swamp , red cross.

The yellow circle is great advice for the vast majority of hunters to select. It allows for the largest margin of error for still killing the deer. The vast majority of hunters need that margin of error not because they are not precision shooters, but rather because it is hard to bring a shooting bench into the field.

I used a 7mm 08 with Remington Express Ammunition 140 Grain Core-Lokt Pointed Soft for deer for over ten years taking one to three deer a year and always shot for the heart and lungs. They never dropped but also never ran more than about 30 yards.

Many, many, years ago, when my dad first started hunting deer, Michigan had a "Deer for camp" thing.
I don't remember the details at all, but you were allowed to shoot a deer, that did not count against your license, for consumption at your deer camp. One year, one of the people in the camp, shot a deer, for a camp deer, that had been shot in the bottom jaw.

"The yellow circle is great advice for the vast majority of hunters to select. It allows for the largest margin of error for still killing the deer. The vast majority of hunters need that margin of error not because they are not precision shooters, but rather because it is hard to bring a shooting bench into the field."


Why not just shoot the deer in the leg and wait for hydrostatic shock to dispatch them?

Jim

Well, I'll add my 0.02.

Lots of stuff going on.

When I see a thread like this I try to think about everyone. From the young man, shooting at his first deer, to the old fart that's shooting at his last. And everyone in the middle.

My opinion, looking at the pictures above with the red X's and all. The one on the deer's head should be removed. Nothing wrong with a good solid neck shot, if it's available. The 3rd X, my opinion is too high.

And I'll disagree, with the yellow circle. My opinion, it's not the most "forgiving".

Lots of variables. If I were to take a shot at the deer pictured, (see the little point on the yellow circle, high and left?) I'd shoot it, just a smidgen higher and left. The deer has a little "dark spot", right about there.

Lots of different ways of thinking. But, kind of in a way, (hard to explain), break a deer down. Take it's shoulders out, it's down. Yes, you might end up with a few pounds of bloodshot meat. What's best? Ruin a little bit of meat or take a chance on it and lose the whole thing?

I know that a lot of hunters will agree with me, most big game bullets are not designed for the average whitetail. That's been mentioned above.

I understand an African sable is a different animal than the whitetail deer, but they surely have similar central nervous systems. The sable is an antelope. I shot my sable just a couple inches lower that the left-most red cross on the deer phot, and that sable ran 70 yards RIGHT AT ME--by accident, more than intent, I think--before he fell over--not dead, but still trying to get up until he bled out.

"That's the first time I've ever seen an animal shot in the neck not die instantly," said the professional hunter.

My point is, it happens--that an animal can be shot in the neck without hitting a vital area. In the case of the neck, the vitals are the spine and carotid arteries, the latter leading only to a delayed kill, as in the case of my sable.

I'd rather shoot for the heart. If I miss, there are the lungs to take the hit.

Oh, and I used a .300 Win Mag shooting 200-grain bullets at 2,800 fps.

Jim

Since there are no yellow circles on real animals, I actually shoot for the far shoulder.

Jim

Why not shoot for the shoulder that you can see? Or at least split the difference, like I mentioned above. A deer without both front legs is pretty much down and out. Agree?

shooting for the far shoulder is not necessarily the best way to say it . when shooting from a variety angles you shoot for the space between the 2 front shoulders as you r point of aim.

if perfect broadside you shoot both shoulders if quartering away behind the shoulder you can see at that center point between the to shoulders .

I think this is what Jim may have been trying to say.

I added the red circle / oval on the head to note that as a CNS hit that does work while not necessarily a good idea , it is a preferred place for poachers shoot at the base of the ear with a 22 when night hunting. a 22 at night doesn't set off people thinking of deer shooting , rather someone running coons and dispatching if they hear it at all.

Jim when you skinned the sable did you find bone fragments from the spine or did the bullet pass low and only get arteries.

doing your own butchering and taking the time to analyze shot placement and effect will make you better informed to choose future shot placement and projectile.

Uh, in Africa the PH's clients don't do their own skinning. Black labor in Africa is cheap but not particularly reliable by Western standards. The PH on my second safari did not want me to tip his staff because they might go off on a several-day drunk. I tipped the buffalo scout anyway, as he did a good job putting me on a bull.

Based on what I saw of the dying animal, I hit him in the near-side carotid artery. Missed the spine completely. Last time I target a neck shot.

Except for Africa. I've done my own butchering, and I always try to look for the bullet and track its path through the animal.

Jim