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Hay sets and entanglement. #6700353
12/20/19 09:11 PM
12/20/19 09:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
trapper
Posco  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Or any other set for that matter. Our regs stipulate the catch circle has to be free of any debris, natural or manmade that could pose an entanglement issue for the target animal. I'm curious if setting more than one trap at a set such as a hay set could be viewed as an entanglement danger.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700360
12/20/19 09:15 PM
12/20/19 09:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,075
Nebraska
WadeRyan Offline
trapper
WadeRyan  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,075
Nebraska
I'd ask the guy in your area writing the ticket.


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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Ulx1woYMmCN3IPLB0wwFw


Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700364
12/20/19 09:18 PM
12/20/19 09:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,757
Oregon
beaverpeeler Offline
trapper
beaverpeeler  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,757
Oregon
Your game commission must not have much to do.


"Can't we all just get along?" ---Rodney King (1991)
Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: beaverpeeler] #6700371
12/20/19 09:24 PM
12/20/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
trapper
Posco  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by WadeRyan
I'd ask the guy in your area writing the ticket.


In retrospect, the answer seems obvious.

Originally Posted by beaverpeeler
Your game commission must not have much to do.


"Best practices" is how they refer to it.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700471
12/20/19 10:23 PM
12/20/19 10:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,542
carolina, Alabama
The Possum Man Offline
trapper
The Possum Man  Offline
trapper

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,542
carolina, Alabama
I know its not exactly what you are asking but i avoid where hay has been fed in fields. The farmers seem to always miss some hay bailing string and that will surely tangle some stuff up. Its usually buried and only found once the critter tears the set up and they will be a big ball of mess. That string will seize up swivels if it gets wrapped up enough. The worst was when i caught a skunk and he scratched up a bunch of string and then sprayed it so i had a bunch of stinky string to cut loose from a trap. The most recent was an otter on a long chain beaver foothold on a pond dam. Apparently years ago someone dumped a roll of hay and it was under the muck. The otter found the string and got wrapped up in it on the bottom of the pond in about 3 ft of water. I had to cut him loose and untangle the whole mess.


"If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough"
Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700480
12/20/19 10:32 PM
12/20/19 10:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 128
MISSOURI,Laclede Co
F
farmnhunt Offline
trapper
farmnhunt  Offline
trapper
F

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 128
MISSOURI,Laclede Co
I'm a farmer. I hate it when farmers don't pick up all the twine or net wrap!! rrrrrrrr!

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: The Possum Man] #6700481
12/20/19 10:33 PM
12/20/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
trapper
Posco  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by The Possum Man
I know its not exactly what you are asking


Doesn't matter. Input is almost always a good thing.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700896
12/21/19 09:27 AM
12/21/19 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,382
SEPA
L
Lugnut Offline
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Lugnut  Offline
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L

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,382
SEPA
PA has a similar law that pertains to cable restraints only. Our CR's have to be non-lethal and any type of entanglement could make them lethal.

But I don't quite understand your Maine "no entanglement" law for footholds. What is the purpose, to keep the chains and swivels from binding up thereby possibly causing foot damage? Seems like that law would severely restrict where you could set. Our CR law sure does.

Are you asking if the second trap would pose an entanglement issue?


Eh...wot?

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Lugnut] #6700918
12/21/19 09:38 AM
12/21/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,877
Maine
M
Mac Offline
trapper
Mac  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,877
Maine
i would not take this to the proverbial bank, this my take.
i sat in on one of the first public meetings where this was discussed.
i believe entangled as they wrote, is meant to keep a critter from wrapping around an object. i.e. tree, bush, etc.
i think the was the intent.

at that very sam meeting i questioned why in the world was the drag/grapple outlawed in lynx areas/
the top biologist stated that they were concerned that animals could injure themselves on the pointed ends!
i kid you not. that biologist is now the commissioner!



Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6700919
12/21/19 09:38 AM
12/21/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,999
Eau Claire Wi
Trap Setter Offline
trapper
Trap Setter  Offline
trapper

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,999
Eau Claire Wi
Are you trapping a WMU because the entanglement rule is only for there.

Look on page 7

It also states woody vegetation rooted to the ground I would say hay is fine not woody or rooted.

Last edited by Trap Setter; 12/21/19 09:40 AM. Reason: Page reference

Life sure is tough when you don't learn from the mistakes of others.
Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6701102
12/21/19 12:47 PM
12/21/19 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 484
Northern Maine
J
jwood Offline
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jwood  Offline
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J

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Posts: 484
Northern Maine
Posco, you can stake your trap back away from the bale, such that the hay bale is not within the catch circle, even though the trap may be right up against the bale. It's a pain, but it's doable and legal. If you don't do that, then the question of whether hay causes entanglement is fairly subjective, site-specific, and open to interpretation. As mentioned above, the local game warden's opinion is the most important one, just be sure to explain in detail what you are doing so they understand fully and can give you the proper answer.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6702055
12/22/19 01:38 AM
12/22/19 01:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 3,171
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
trapper
NonPCfed  Offline
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Posts: 3,171
se South Dakota
Sounds like one of those, "we'll let you trap but we really don't want you to catch anything" rules so "they" constantly think up and throw down dumb ideas to make it more of a hassle for trappers. Good luck!!


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6702130
12/22/19 08:15 AM
12/22/19 08:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 630
rochester nh
D
don403 Offline
trapper
don403  Offline
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D

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 630
rochester nh
ya in maine we need 3 swivels per trap,


24coyotes,4 coon 3 grey fox,118muskrats,4 mink,6 fisher 23 beaver , 10 otter,4 bobcat
Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: NonPCfed] #6702215
12/22/19 09:33 AM
12/22/19 09:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
trapper
Posco  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by Lugnut
Are you asking if the second trap would pose an entanglement issue?


Yes. Even though you stake the traps so they both clear each other when you sweep a catch circle, there's nothing to keep the animal from getting caught in one trap and then stepping in the other.


Originally Posted by Mac
i would not take this to the proverbial bank, this my take.
i sat in on one of the first public meetings where this was discussed.
i believe entangled as they wrote, is meant to keep a critter from wrapping around an object. i.e. tree, bush, etc.
i think the was the intent.


I think that is their intent, too, Mac.

Originally Posted by jwood
Posco, you can stake your trap back away from the bale, such that the hay bale is not within the catch circle, even though the trap may be right up against the bale. It's a pain, but it's doable and legal. If you don't do that, then the question of whether hay causes entanglement is fairly subjective, site-specific, and open to interpretation. As mentioned above, the local game warden's opinion is the most important one, just be sure to explain in detail what you are doing so they understand fully and can give you the proper answer.

Thanks for the response, jwood. I was thinking of the hay set where guys strew hay over the ground and then set the traps loosely in the hay itself. I have a good relationship with the local warden as I've gotten to know him from tagging critters to dealing with roaming dogs. We all want answers cast in stone rather than arbitrary interpretations of the regs. His interpretation is the one that counts.

Originally Posted by NonPCfed
Sounds like one of those, "we'll let you trap but we really don't want you to catch anything" rules so "they" constantly think up and throw down dumb ideas to make it more of a hassle for trappers. Good luck!!


I was thinking that just the other day. We can use cage traps to trap for bobcat but the cage opening height can't exceed thirteen inches. Most guys agree, a cat likely isn't going to enter a cage that is that restricted. Biologists can use a trap with any opening height the wish but the average trapper can't.

What's going to stress a cat more, releasing a cat from a cage or removing a trap from its foot? I don't know who dreams this stuff up.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: Posco] #6702248
12/22/19 10:06 AM
12/22/19 10:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 140
Maine
A
AndrewM Offline
trapper
AndrewM  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 140
Maine
Here's my take.

The State's definition of a catch circle is different than a trapper's definition of a catch circle. As you know, the law reads:

"Foothold traps must have the catch circle cleared of woody vegetation, debris and man-made material that could cause entanglement of a trapped animal. Small sticks and rocks, and rotten/decaying woody material may be used for stepping guides, blocking, and backing for trap sets, if they are not rooted to the ground. A catch circle is defined as the area that can be circumscribed by the outer edge of a trap when the trap and trap chain are fully extended and moved in a circle (360°) around the anchoring point.

That being said, as long as each respective trap cannot physically touch the other, I believe it complies with the law. It doesn't matter how far the animal can reach. I do what JWood suggested and set my trap back from any trees by stretching out the chain when I anchor my trap. I had a conversation with my warden where we discussed that a wooden cubby inside the catch circle would be legal as long as it wasn't fastened to the ground and could be pushed aside easily. It didn't present an entanglement hazard.

Here's another thing to consider though....... Do you think a hay set, the type of set where a trap is bedded on top of a bale of hay, meets the requirement that "Foothold traps must be set at or below ground, ice, or snow levels" ? I'm not sure........Unless the bale of hay has been snowed on.

I know this is really nit-picky, but that's the way some wardens view it. When I had questions earlier this year I just called my warden and asked him for his interpretation of the law. He would be the one writing the ticket so that's all that really matters.

Re: Hay sets and entanglement. [Re: AndrewM] #6702876
12/22/19 07:27 PM
12/22/19 07:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
trapper
Posco  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,837
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by AndrewM
Here's another thing to consider though....... Do you think a hay set, the type of set where a trap is bedded on top of a bale of hay, meets the requirement that "Foothold traps must be set at or below ground, ice, or snow levels" ? I'm not sure........Unless the bale of hay has been snowed on.

I wondered about that, too. I assume it can be placed in a column of snow so long as the trap doesn't breach the surface of the snow. Another thing I was reluctant to do was set with an exposed pan for cats. As best I can tell, as long as the trap is set flush with or below grade, I see no requirement that it has to be covered.

I'll have a chat with the warden when he tags my cat...hopefully cats. Sign dried up.

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