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defensive firearm loads #6728562
01/14/20 10:47 AM
01/14/20 10:47 AM
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Green County Wisconsin
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last week there was a post about defensive firearms use

as I recall it started with a account of how a co-worker had used a 44mag in a confined hall or room of the house and the bullet struck his attacker who was drunk and high in the upper arm bicep missed the bone and went through walls and exited the mans home but was not found .

the attacker drug himself from the house and was found by police who followed the blood and the home owner was also incapacitated by the concussion of firing the magnum pistol in a confined space and was unable to respond properly to police questions and orders.

this then took us down a list of guns mentioned were all manner of handguns , rifles , shotguns , pistol cartridge carbines , shot firing pistols , we even touched on 22lr and 22mag rifles.

as well as numerous ammunition choices.

I found some videos that help to illustrate effectiveness of some of these guns mentioned

starting with maybe the 22lr isn't so bad certainly lethal even from a handgun maybe even more so from a rifle
here is a video where 22lr ammo from pistols is tested on the Meat target


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728585
01/14/20 11:11 AM
01/14/20 11:11 AM
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shotguns were a commonly mentioned item also , especially with bird shot

this video compares steel and lead bird shot of some different sizes

between this and other videos and my own person experiences of the shot does not hit as a single projectile a cluster of shot so tight that it basically acts like a fragmenting slug the results are disappointing

and a shot gun that patterns great with one ammunition may pattern very differently with another

yes a shotgun with shot as small as 8 possibly smaller is effective in penetrating ribs and getting to vital organs IF it is fired at close enough of a distance that it is acting as a single projectile and that can vary with guns , you need to pattern and know where your group opens with each ammunition and shotgun. it is very distance dependent as well as pattern from your shotgun dependent.

410 pistols must have rifled barrel and spin the shot opening up patterns very quickly reducing effective distance quickly you need to pattern everything, it is reasonable to expect rifled shotguns spin the pattern open also when shot is fired through them.

just because it makes a gaping wound and hits organs and proves lethal does not mean it is immediately stopping.

no one wants to get shot by well really anything discussed here.

I am not advocating any one solution , only that you should pattern any multi projectile round in Your specific gun and see what distance it becomes multiple holes in the target and not one. grocery bags are one of my favorite targets for patterning because my food comes with a bunch of them every week and I can burn them or they can be folded up and not take a lot of room in my recycling when I am done.



America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728638
01/14/20 11:47 AM
01/14/20 11:47 AM
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I have said and thought repeatedly that shotgun manufacturers should make a 18 and 20 inch barrel shotguns with interchangeable chokes but few do.

it would be easier to carry , while specific ammunition dependent still , shotgun and pistol powders are often the same powder red dot , green dot , universal , clays they all are fairly fast burning and in such unless a slow shotgun powder is being used very little velocity is gained beyond 20 inches of barrel in many shot loads.

a 9mm pistol load that might be 1100 fps from a 4 inch barrel might be 1400 from a 16 inch barrel remember 9x19 the case takes 3/4 of an inch of barrel length so a 4 inch barrel only really has 3.25 inches of time to accelerate meaning 338fps per inch and a 16 inch barrel only gains 300 fps in the next 12 inches. the speed of 1400fps might be realized by say 8-12 inches of barrel the 1921 Thompson sub machine gun used in WWII it came with a 12 inch barrel if they went longer they saw a decrease in velocity the powder was all burned and the friction slowed the bullet.

here is a test done with 3 different loads in a 36 , 26 and 20 inch barrel
barrel lenght vs shot velocity

the heavy field load #6 shot saw a 100fps drop from the 36 to 20 inch barrel 1203fps to 1103fps and the buck shot lost 133fps from 36" to 20"

while the slug did loose the most 1602fps in a 36" barrel to 1465fps in a 20" barrel this is only 137fps and I can guarantee that a slug from a 20 inch barrel is still a very effective stopper of white tail deer of all sizes within it's range which anything at in house or likely to be considered a self deference distance is well within.

again not advocating any round over another just presenting data.
wouldn't it be nice to keep the tightest pattern possible if we know that a multi projectile rounds effectiveness is directly proportional to the size of the pattern?

also if you must have a single mass of your multi projectile round to give the desired penetration on a meat target then you must also aim said single mass of projectiles.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728646
01/14/20 11:51 AM
01/14/20 11:51 AM
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I don't think there will ever have a meeting of the minds on the best defense weapon or ammo. I thing the above is all good advice.
The key to self defense is carry a weapon and in most cases that is a pistol or revolver. Home defense a rifle or a shot gun.
The other key is know and practice with the weapon you are carrying or have at home. There is a big difference is stopping and dropping and intruder. JMO

** Who you vote for is your choice alone. **

Last edited by Getting There; 01/14/20 12:19 PM.

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Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: Getting There] #6728648
01/14/20 11:53 AM
01/14/20 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Getting There
I don't thing there will ever have a meeting of the minds on the best defense weapon or ammo. I thing the about is all good advice.
The key to self defense is carry a weapon and in most cases that is a pistol or revolver. Home defense a rifle or a shot gun.
The other key is know and practice with the weapon you are carrying or have at home. There is a big difference is stopping and dropping and intruder. JMO

** Who you vote for is your choice alone. **

Well said.


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728685
01/14/20 12:28 PM
01/14/20 12:28 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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a meeting of the minds , no probably not some overlapping understanding yes.

best will always be an elusive concussion everyone best will be different , but effective with in a range should overlap considerably.

to some extent I think any reasonable person who does some testing of their ammunition and firearm will realize not all ammo is right for every gun or every distance.
as long as your use matches with your testing and you understand the limits or your equipment then you know what to do.

hopefully we can all agree that you need to test what you carry / plan to use.

this same guy in the video had a long video on why he dislikes Hyper ammunition actually his bigest dislike for hyper ammo really revolves around it's cost and peoples unwillingness to test it or practice with it. and not because it isn't poterntially effective or makes good groups but that often it makes groups in a very different place inches from point of aim


here is that video

Last edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE; 01/14/20 12:51 PM.

America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728694
01/14/20 12:40 PM
01/14/20 12:40 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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I am sure some people would take issue with my 9mm carry ammunition

but I tested it and found it effective as far as I could reasonably test it .

the reality is I carry one of the least expensive options , because it works form my 3.125 inch barrel , 4 and 4.49 inch barrels it expands decent but keeps together and just works in the testing I have done.
it also shoots exactly the same place as my target ammo i can mix them up in a magazine and not tell the difference on a target.
because of it's cost I can also afford to shoot it and replace it regularly.

I tested a well respected Law enforcement ammunition that I am sure a lot of cops carry and found it did not work well for me might as well have been fmj from my 3.125 and 4 inch barrels

the meat targets that are in the videos are by no means hard to make or that expensive watch for a good sale on cheap pork and make a few targets you might have 10-15 dollars in one but that is less than a box of ammo test your load in your gun


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728737
01/14/20 01:40 PM
01/14/20 01:40 PM
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the carry ammo I ruled out. the meat target shows the same results I got in my test in this video , it might as well have been an FMJ ranger-T LE 147 gr 9mm he also has almost and additional inch of barrel to get more velocity

this was the first time I saw this video but it is nice to confirm my results and it makes me think that the meat target is a fairly reasonable and more available than my test of nuisance raccoons depending how many friends you have calling you to come shoot the raccoons from their back deck, barn , garage ect.. it was a bad year for nuisance coon this year.



America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728848
01/14/20 03:50 PM
01/14/20 03:50 PM
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Hancock Co., Indiana
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Hey GREENCOUNTYPETE... You should take up writing a gun column for some magazine. Seriously. Have you ever thought about submitting an article to FFG for their Gun Rack column?


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Bound by everlasting bands?
None shall take thee
From the Strength of Israel's hands.

Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728913
01/14/20 05:03 PM
01/14/20 05:03 PM
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I don't get FFG , I have thought of writing a few times but have been satisfied with teaching and not really looked at getting published.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728976
01/14/20 06:18 PM
01/14/20 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
I don't get FFG , I have thought of writing a few times but have been satisfied with teaching and not really looked at getting published.




Doing a fine job of it too, Pete.

The guy in the videos makes some very good points about not using the 'hyper ammo', especially point number seven.

Thank you for starting this thread, and sharing your own experiences and wisdom.



Charlie


Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm.

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Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6728992
01/14/20 06:34 PM
01/14/20 06:34 PM
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Lawyers LOVE IT when somebody shoots their client with hand loads. They make a big deal out of the shooter TRIED with MALICE FORE THOUGHT to kill/maim their client. Buy a box of special ammo that is already +P with HP's, that's ammo "like the cops carry".


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Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #6729241
01/14/20 10:04 PM
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Thanks for this post and all the work you did on it, Pete!

Moosetrot

Re: defensive firearm loads [Re: BigBob] #6729260
01/14/20 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBob
Lawyers LOVE IT when somebody shoots their client with hand loads. They make a big deal out of the shooter TRIED with MALICE FORE THOUGHT to kill/maim their client. Buy a box of special ammo that is already +P with HP's, that's ammo "like the cops carry".


I have heard that several times , Hollywood has taken and run with it in tv crime shows. the reality of case law have very little to do with your malice intent if your defense attorney is worth half what your paying him. you were making the most accurate round for your gun that you could afford to practice with regularly to keep proficient.

here is where that comes from it is in Massad Ayoob's book.

https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

his argument for it is that it provides a specific repeatable test medium for evidence finding. if they are looking for GSR on the attacker to validate your distance claim and they use an off the shelf 124gr hollow point , he states that the crime lab will not break down or test your hand-loads to get good evidence , they will sue what they have that they think similar no matter how good your loading notes are.

I think the point is that you can buy a lot of carry ammo for one hour of your lawyers time .

the important thing is that your practice ammo and your carry ammo hit in the same place.

Federal is making poly coated training ammo that is calibrated to be the same weight and velocity as the self defense ammo.

I prefer 124gr in 9mm it is a blend of speed and weight and it hits to the sights in all my 9mm pistols.

an argument for and against +p

+p means your venturing outside of SAAMII spec over pressure and for what not much more velocity than standard pressure , I think it maybe used to mean more before there were powders blended to get velocity without exceeding pressure spec looking at a Hornady xtp standard pressure and +p 65fps is the listed difference between.the too this is not much more than the velocity difference seen between individual rounds the standard velocity is 5.5% slower than the +p

some guns are not rated for +p

potentially more recoil and flash
in some cases more recoil than the marginal velocity gain is worth.

if you run +p for defense ammo , do you need to run +p practice ammo? probably to hit in the same place.

are those few feet per second worth the added cost to run +p , the wear on your gun and you and also adding cost to your practice to run all +p practice ammo.

what ever ammo you choose to carry , you should be able to buy it locally , regularly , in quantity and it should not be so precious you won't test it and practice with it some.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
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