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Bait testing studies #6739657
01/22/20 11:57 AM
01/22/20 11:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Teacher Offline OP
trapper
Teacher  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Back in the 1980s, there was one or more studies about which lures were best at holding the attention of canines and cats. As I recall, a couple of Russ Carman’s lures did very well. If memory serves, these were either university studies or studies done by federal wildlife control agencies.

Anyway, to the best of the collective knowledge by Tman members, has there been any studies done to determine which or who’s baits are the best for cats and canines?

The reason I ask is because I’m getting tired of the reading all the claims of “best in the trapping industry” and “nation’s number 1 seller” and “best north south East and west”. I have no doubts that anyone who researches, makes, bottles and distributes a bait probably has pretty good stuff. But, since no one has tested this bait against others, there is no reason to make such claims. In essence, what you’re giving us is “fake news” and unproven “facts”.

Of course a lot of what is used is used incorrectly by trappers. And if the wind isn’t blowing in the right direction, at the right time, the probability of a catch is not going to be high. But, I bet if I look at 50 online and print catalogs of trapping baits, I’ll get a very high percentage of claims about being the “best” at something that has no basis in actual fact. To that end, I can live with “my best seller” claims because the seller has records of that.

Back to my questions. 1. Is anyone reading this familiar with university or state or federal agency research which have tested which commercial baits perform as claimed? and 2. Where can trappers find such studies so we can read for ourselves ?

Last edited by Teacher; 01/22/20 12:00 PM. Reason: Changed wording

Never too old to learn
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739702
01/22/20 12:23 PM
01/22/20 12:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,785
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,785
Georgia
Best thing to do is use a bait that matches your area recommended from trappers you know that are reputable for that area. Try several of each type. Sometimes a lure that works well in one area lacks in other areas. Most federal and state agency's are only as good as their personnel at the time. Very few have the expertise that they try to project. We have some very good trappers that work for the DNR but the heads of the departments my not have the insight to listen to or recognize the best ones for the study.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739718
01/22/20 12:38 PM
01/22/20 12:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Teacher Offline OP
trapper
Teacher  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Thanks Kirk, but that means I’m the tester. Before I go out and buy the “hype”, I’d like to see some unbiased results from independent tests.

Guys around here all use different stuff. And that suggests it all works, which might actually be the case. I’ve always felt a hungry/curious canine that hit an odor that piqued its hunger or curiosity would work the set regardless of who made the attractant. Intuitively that makes sense. But the I-don’t-believe-what-I-wrote part of me says I can do better if I know what real research says.

Guess I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill. But I get frustrated with all the hype. It’s all advertising without substance and I’d like to see some substance once in a while.


Never too old to learn
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739742
01/22/20 12:56 PM
01/22/20 12:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
There has been a great series of articles in Trappers World magazine summarizing the government studies. It wasn't a study designed to find the best commercial lures out there but it did compare some commercial formulations out there. I've done a lot of testing using commercial lures and baits and also ones from individuals. I wont share my results on here but will say if you really want to know test on your own (its worth it)and test without a trap so you can actually see the animal's response.

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Yes sir] #6739831
01/22/20 02:10 PM
01/22/20 02:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 372
northern indiana
son-of-grizz Offline
trapper
son-of-grizz  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 372
northern indiana
Originally Posted by Yes sir
There has been a great series of articles in Trappers World magazine summarizing the government studies. It wasn't a study designed to find the best commercial lures out there but it did compare some commercial formulations out there. I've done a lot of testing using commercial lures and baits and also ones from individuals. I wont share my results on here but will say if you really want to know test on your own (its worth it)and test without a trap so you can actually see the animal's response.


Now with doing this study are you doing this the entire year or are you just doing it during certain times? My lovely wife bought me some trail cameras for Christmas and I planned on doing some testing with them. Would you use different lures at the same location or different locations for each lure?

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739895
01/22/20 02:53 PM
01/22/20 02:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Year around. Sometimes a single lure or bait by itself (usually if I'm trying to formulate something from scratch myself) and sometimes side by side product comparisons.

It took my some playing around to find a camera that wouldn't spook coyotes. But I'm also cheap. Lol

A lot can be learned from sign left at test sets but cameras do have some added benefits.

Last edited by Yes sir; 01/22/20 02:55 PM.
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739903
01/22/20 03:01 PM
01/22/20 03:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
central arkansas
T
the Blak Spot Offline
trapper
the Blak Spot  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
central arkansas
If i was gonna run off to a different state to trap here is what I would take:
Baits: Grawes mustang sally/Rk predator/High country control froggy eds(Tom Beaudette)/Junes widowmaker

Lures: carmans canine call, pros choice, megamusk, final touch/ junes fox frenzy/ Lenons weasel/ Masts #'s 2,5,&6 & cat #4/ fox hollow voodoo or gh2/ Grahams tomcat, bonanza mild/ Dobbins Backbreaker
(Backbreaker and lenons weasel work well for me at remakes)
So far, beaver liver is working for a natural bait

Fox or cat urine

I've tried all these, not just one season either(bout ten seasons). they work well.
Hope that helps


the just shall live by faith

member FTA, ATA, EAFT
1776 - the year we told a tyrant we weren't to be under a dictator
Caveat ater macula
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6739987
01/22/20 04:40 PM
01/22/20 04:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Teacher Offline OP
trapper
Teacher  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,168
Rochester, MN
Blak Spot makes an interesting observation on beaver liver. Almost every car killed deer I’ve seen had the guts eaten out first. While you and I go for the muscles, critters like something that’s internal. In Locklear’s Teachers of the Night-Dirt Hole version, he says they used about a pound of liver (beef?) down the hole. Looks like I might have to start saving beaver livers for canine bait. Ooooo my wife will be so happy to find more packages in the freezer!


Never too old to learn
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740312
01/22/20 07:43 PM
01/22/20 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
Black spot I am interested in learning why you need so many different scents?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740375
01/22/20 08:22 PM
01/22/20 08:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
In my opinion there is no practical way to test which scent will catch you the most fur except by trapping with them. Then you have to run a line with one and see what happens. Not throw multiple scents out. Every set same scent or scents. Over a period of time so as to reduce the effects of all the variables. When something is hitting regular, when you get confidence in it, then use it . What i think and especially what that maker says dont mean nothing. Only what you think and the criitters think matters. USDA tests on caged animals are useful but should not be taken as absolutes.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740402
01/22/20 08:44 PM
01/22/20 08:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Danny
You don't think an animals reaction at a mock set is an indicator as to the attractiveness of a lure or bait? I agree the ultimate test is on the trapline but from my experience so far the stuff that shines in mock sets seems to be the best with traps set in front of them also. I'm not asking to disagree with but rather hear your thoughts as you have steered me in the right direction before. I'm honestly surprised more people don't do more testing than what appears to be happening. Its sure been a wealth of learning for me, not only about baits and lures but about sets and the animals themselves. The great thing is you can make them right on the edge of the dirt roads, don't need permission, and dont need to check them every day (fact I recommend not checking them every day). A hours drive in the countryside once a week checking and making mock sets will teach one alot if they want to learn.

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740414
01/22/20 08:59 PM
01/22/20 08:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,691
Nevadafornia
L
Lazarus Offline
trapper
Lazarus  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,691
Nevadafornia
Many of the lure/bait studies were done at government research centers with captive coyotes. They react different than wild coyotes. For that matter, different times of year, coyotes react differently to different attractants. I've got hundreds of hours of trail camera video with cats and coyotes and I've come up with my own conclusions, but they are just my own observations. They aren't scientific.

There isn't one "best" lure or bait out there . . . unless it happens to be the one the animal likes at the time. I would suggest this to you -- simple is better. If you are talking coyote BAIT, then slightly tainted venison is king, followed by slightly tainted horse. Cat and beaver work as well, but in my observation, venison and horse are edible, they are natural (as opposed to a perfumed bait with lots of exotic ingredients), and coyotes want to eat them. I realize in some states these baits are illegal or hard to obtain -- that wasn't your question. Your question was what has the most attraction.

For cats, its a different game. Lots of variation between the sexes and a greater difference of response depending on the time of year. Females and younger cats seem to be more interested in food. Big toms seem to prefer something out of the ordinary. All cats love beaver smells. Period. As breeding season approaches, they are more interested in glands and urine. Lure makers often enhance all these odors with carrying agents like skunk, mint and other odors that reach out and carry the more mild odors. Cats also like exotic stuff, or at least they are curious about it. Certain odors trigger euphoric reactions in cats so cats show great interest in them (i.e. silver vine, catnip, etc.).

I suggest you try some basic odors either on your trapline or in the off season with some trail cameras and use what you observe works best for you in your area.

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740418
01/22/20 09:01 PM
01/22/20 09:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
I'd trust the opinion of trappers here before I would a government study. No doubt in my mind that some of the best trappers in the world are right here.

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740427
01/22/20 09:06 PM
01/22/20 09:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,267
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Online content
trapper
Boco  Online Content
trapper
B

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,267
james bay frontierOnt.
Here is my bait.

[Linked Image]

Here is my study

[Linked Image]


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740576
01/22/20 11:20 PM
01/22/20 11:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
Test holes work.

Russ Carmen wrote that often the first lure that catches a target species becomes that trappers favorite.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740631
01/23/20 12:22 AM
01/23/20 12:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
MNCedar Offline
trapper
MNCedar  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
Slim Pedersen has done some excellent writing on both the lure industry and some of the fallacies involved with it. I always enjoy reading his words.

Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6740641
01/23/20 12:27 AM
01/23/20 12:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,951
rogers city mi.
J
jeff karsten Offline
trapper
jeff karsten  Offline
trapper
J

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,951
rogers city mi.
Major Boddicker did a lot of testing some all over the world and hAS several books out the books I have all have excerpts in them from other studies with a glossary of titles in the back
Another good one is Evaluation of Baits and Lures by Charles Dobbins Specific names are not mentioned but its a in depth look at lure testing The effort he puts in will tire you out just by reading it
And as Danny said put out a lure on a weed and check the responses


olden tyred
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: danny clifton] #6740777
01/23/20 08:35 AM
01/23/20 08:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
central arkansas
T
the Blak Spot Offline
trapper
the Blak Spot  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
central arkansas
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Black spot I am interested in learning why you need so many different scents?

I rotate every year, so the ones i educate will get something different the next season.


the just shall live by faith

member FTA, ATA, EAFT
1776 - the year we told a tyrant we weren't to be under a dictator
Caveat ater macula
Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Lazarus] #6741292
01/23/20 03:02 PM
01/23/20 03:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
M
Mac Offline
trapper
Mac  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Many of the lure/bait studies were done at government research centers with captive coyotes. They react different than wild coyotes. For that matter, different times of year, coyotes react differently to different attractants. I've got hundreds of hours of trail camera video with cats and coyotes and I've come up with my own conclusions, but they are just my own observations. They aren't scientific.

There isn't one "best" lure or bait out there . . . unless it happens to be the one the animal likes at the time. I would suggest this to you -- simple is better. If you are talking coyote BAIT, then slightly tainted venison is king, followed by slightly tainted horse. Cat and beaver work as well, but in my observation, venison and horse are edible, they are natural (as opposed to a perfumed bait with lots of exotic ingredients), and coyotes want to eat them. I realize in some states these baits are illegal or hard to obtain -- that wasn't your question. Your question was what has the most attraction.

For cats, its a different game. Lots of variation between the sexes and a greater difference of response depending on the time of year. Females and younger cats seem to be more interested in food. Big toms seem to prefer something out of the ordinary. All cats love beaver smells. Period. As breeding season approaches, they are more interested in glands and urine. Lure makers often enhance all these odors with carrying agents like skunk, mint and other odors that reach out and carry the more mild odors. Cats also like exotic stuff, or at least they are curious about it. Certain odors trigger euphoric reactions in cats so cats show great interest in them (i.e. silver vine, catnip, etc.).

I suggest you try some basic odors either on your trapline or in the off season with some trail cameras and use what you observe works best for you in your area.




Reread this. Has taken me a lifetime (well almost) to figure out what he is talking about on canines.
Bobcats? I am just starting to try and really get a handle on them and I know darn well I don't have another life time waiting in the wings.

And that is why forums like this one offer so much help.
Thanks Lazarus for sharing/

Mac



Re: Bait testing studies [Re: Teacher] #6743431
01/25/20 07:01 AM
01/25/20 07:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,001
USA MN
Snowpa Offline
trapper
Snowpa  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,001
USA MN
Lots of good lure out there but IMO a lure can only be as good as the Trapper


Never Confuse Stupid With Crazy
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